Lost 116 Pages w/ LDS Discussions – 04

Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin 0:00 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and we are super excited for our next part in our series with LDS Discussions) or with Mike from LDS Discussions). LDS Discussions) is this amazing website. You can go to LDSDiscussions.com where my friend Mike has written, I don't know, 50 or 60 essays on the Mormon Church's truth claims, trying really hard to. To just focus on the facts and the evidence and to discuss, you know, issues or problems with the Mormon Church's truth claims. We have done three episodes so far, so if you are joining us for the first time on this series, we did an episode on Joseph Smith's Treasure Digging that was part one.

John Dehlin 0:50 Then we did the Golden Plates as part two, and then we did the Book of Mormon translation as part three. Today we are super excited for part four, which is the last 116 pages to the Book of Mormon. And Mike, it's so great to have you back on Mormon Stories podcast.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:11 How's it going? Ready to do another one?

John Dehlin 1:13 People are loving this series.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:16 I hope so. I mean, like I said, I hope the whole thing is to find it helpful and I think to do it in a way that is one of the things, and I know you've experienced this from people you've talked to, is people when they read, say, the CES letter, it feels like you're being ambushed because it's just so much at once. And I'm hoping by doing this doing topic by topic a little slower, we can go over it in a way that if you're a believing member, you might not be comfortable with it, but at least you'll understand. Like, it's not just us throwing out anti Mormon stuff.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:45 And I pointed out a few times already where, you know, I purposely avoid some of the stuff that would be considered anti Mormon because I don't feel it's foundationally sturdy enough. And so the whole point is to do this in a way that I feel I'm hoping that even if you watch it as a believer, you could say, I don't agree with you, but at least you're not, you know, I don't think you're making things up or intentionally trying to misrepresent the positions both of the church and the evidence. And so I'm hoping this is helpful to people because it, like I said, was for me.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:12 I was asked to do this by a believing member. And so the whole time I was doing it in my head, I was thinking, this is how I want to present it to someone who's a believer, because I don't want to sugarcoat it, but I also want to make sure that the evidence is valid, very sound, before I present it to someone.

John Dehlin 2:27 I love it. One last thing. We're going to ask for some feedback. We've been having a few co hosts each time. We've had Jen on, we've had Gerardo on, we've had Nemo on, and we've gone back and forth. Some of us, you know, at times we feel like many of you are just going to want the facts, they're going to want the history without any discussion or perspective or much analysis. So kind of a leaner, shorter, abridged version. And then we feel like others of you may really like the more extended versions, where we're emotionally reacting, where we're talking about broader issues. We're trying to contextualize this, and we're not sure which to do, whether we should do shorter, really lean and focused versions, longer, more expounding versions, or if we should release two versions, a short version and a long version.

John Dehlin 3:17 So please email us or comment on your feedback because we'll do whatever the overwhelming majority want. We just don't know. We're torn. We want to keep it fun and interesting, but also we don't want it to be super long and we want to keep it focused. So today, this episode we're doing, we're only going to have just me as a co host to reduce the insight and commentary. And Mike and I are going to try and just stay. Keep our commentary focused on the 116 pages and not zoom out to the broader issues. How's that, Mike? Does that sound all right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 3:52 Yeah, I mean, I think it like, you know, we've tried to find that balance because the thing is, these presentations by themselves are a little dry. And if you read the overview project@ LDSDiscussions.com the pages get a little long, they get a little in the weeds. And so if you're reading them, I think the reason these videos might be more helpful than those in a lot of ways is because of the fact that you have other people who can interject their experience and also other people who, when they have questions about what I'm saying, can say, what does this mean? Which, when you're reading it, you can't do that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 4:20 And so we're trying to find that balance because we want it to be worth your listen. We want it to be something that you find valuable, both in terms of the content and also in terms of the tone. And that's why we've tried really hard to keep this as tight as we can to not going off about things that seem like you're being ambushed as a believer. And at the same time, we want to make sure that we're also being authentic to what we've learned in those experiences as well. So we really just want to try to make it really the most valuable for people who are going through these questions because we've all been there ourselves.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 4:54 But it's hard sometimes when we're recording these to know how they're being perceived because we're just kind of going through the slides and back and forth. But we want to make sure obviously they're helpful to all of you out there.

Why the 116 Pages Matter

John Dehlin 5:05 All right, well, that, that. With that, let's go ahead and, let's go ahead and dig in. Now. This 116 pages issue you feel is super important. And Mike, I guess there's going to be a few people who don't even know what we mean when we talk about the 116 pages. So why don't you give it an intro, just like the 32nd version of what happened and talk about why you think this is so important?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 5:39 Well, we have the. Actually, if we go to the first slide, we can kind of do that because we're going to go over why they're important. And like I said, I said this, I teased this in the last episode. I feel like this is one of the most important overviews, in part because of the window it gives us into Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, but also because of the fact that you're not going to see this as much in some of the more common materials like the CES letter. And I think it's because it is a, it's a tricky one to talk about, but it's so important.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 6:03 And so there are three reasons that I think that this is just a really, really impactful topic. And one is we've talked about this in the first few overviews, but Joseph Smith uses treasure digging techniques both through his treasure digging and through the gold plates and through the translation. And as we've mentioned, every time Joseph Smith loses control of the situation, but he becomes powerless. And so in this case, not only does Joseph Smith lose his power with his Peep Seer stone, but God loses any power to help him in a physical manner. And that's really important to note when, when you are tracking this in a secular viewpoint where you're saying, why is it that God loses his power at the Same time as Joseph Smith.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 6:43 And so we'll go through that as we go through the story. But you got to keep that in mind because again, it's not just Joseph Smith that loses his power. It's God in the revelations who loses control of the situation. And that's a really important thing that you have to acknowledge, even as a believer with the 116 pages story.

John Dehlin 7:02 Okay, all right, that's one. That's one problem.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 7:05 I'll go back real quick. And then the other. The other two real quick from the last slide are just kind of. Let's see, real quick. Can you go back one slide?

John Dehlin 7:18 Oh, sorry.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 7:19 No, no, it's fine. And so one of the things when I was, like when I said when I joined, I did not grow up in the church. And so my understanding of these stories was a lot less because I didn't go through seminary. I joined after high school. So the idea of the small plates was just told to me as if it was always in the church's documentation. It was always thought of the whole time. And so it was always told to you like God had planned for this exact event, and he created the idea or created a set of small plates because he knew this was going to happen.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 7:47 And what's amazing is we're going to refer to the article that will be referenced heavily. But there's this article that went through and you can actually show the small plates are not even thought of until Joseph Smith finishes the Book of Mormon and then has to go back and write the beginning. And that is so important to understand again, into the window of the process. And then the third one, and this is kind of something we're going to hammer on now that we're going into the Book of Mormon text itself. But Joseph Smith leaves his fingerprints all over the text. And in the replacement text, Joseph Smith has to recreate it in a way because he doesn't know if Lucy Harris has it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 8:20 And so he has to replace this text in a way that is so vague that if she does have it, she cannot expose him. And we're going to kind of show through some of the work that Tanner's did where he's doing it and why it is so obvious now that Joseph Smith was trying to effectively cover his tracks in the replacement tax.

The Book of Mormon's Three Core Issues

John Dehlin 8:38 Okay. And you had this as a summary slide, but the reason why I wanted to pull it up front is because it's. It helps people know what to pay attention to. So what you're saying is, pay attention to what extent God is God's power seems to be magically limited by the 116 pages fiasco. Number one, Joseph's power and God's power. It's like all of a sudden their power disappears. Does that remind you of the treasure digging? Sort of a habit of all of a sudden, treasures disappear, they slip away, blah, blah, blah. Does it fit that mold? Number two is, does the small plates kind of theory within the Book of Mormon end up seeming like an afterthought once you review it? And then three, do you find Joseph Smith's fingerprints all over the place, kind of explaining and trying to explain away this problem that he's confronted? Is that what you're saying?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 9:35 Yeah, Those are the three big themes within this overview. And so most of you, if you're watching or listening, have heard this story before. But just as a really quick look at the story, the 116 pages, Joseph Smith is working with Martin Harris. He works with Emma Smith. I believe there might be one or two more people that acted as scribes in that time for very short periods, but it's mostly Martin Harris and Emma Smith. And Martin Harris is told by Joseph Smith through Revelation that he needs to finance the Book of Mormon. And that is one of those things that we'll get into a little more later.

Martin Harris and the Lost Manuscript

Mike (LDS Discussions) 10:05 But because he's being told he needs to help fund the Book of Mormon, his wife Lucy is very suspicious of Joseph and she wants to see proof. Martin wants to show the proof to her. And we won't show the south park clip on this, but, you know, this is the whole thing where with Lucy Smith they say, smart, smart, smart, and it's because she wants proof, whereas Martin Harris is, you know, seemingly only looking for proof to help appease Lucy. And so according to Lucy Harris, and again, this is from her, which people would argue she's coming from an antagonistic source, but they say that she even offers to help fund the Book of Mormon herself, but she wants to see the plates before she does it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 10:39 And then she says that when Joseph refuses to show Lucy the gold plates, he actually tells her. And as to assistants, I always prefer dealing with men rather than their wives. And again, that quote is from Lavina Fielding Anderson's book. It's from an account from Lucy Harris. But this is a way where we're kind of seeing that Lucy Harris is trying, I think, to interject herself into this story of Martin and Joseph in. And I think in a lot of ways, again, kind of like we saw in the last episode, we talked about the spectacles and you've got Joseph Smith kind of stuck with the spectacle because he's being put into a corner.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 11:15 And I think here, Lucy Harris is putting Joseph in a corner. I think Joseph is trying to basically say, I don't want any part of you, because he knows that she is not someone who is of the mindset to just go through the motions with him. And in that quote, I think, again, I know apologetically, you'd probably say she's coming from an anti antagonistic standpoint, but there at least is that indication that Lucy was even offering. I'll even help you fund it, but you got to show me something and Joseph won't do it.

John Dehlin 11:42 Yeah, yeah. So Martin is. Martin is neglecting his duties as a farmer. He is investing all this money in Joseph Smith. It's a fantastic claim to begin with. And I think Martin really. I think the Martin Lucy dichotomy really represents, well, the magical worldview, which is Martin Harris and the Joseph Smith family and kind of the skeptical worldview, which is Lucy Harris saying, hey, if this is all true, I'm all in. But if it's a charlatan, I want some evidence. And so it's a really great story. All right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 12:24 Yeah. And so this leads to the version of the story we all kind of know, which is basically, Martin continues to ask Joseph for some way to prove to Lucy that the plates are correct. Joseph Smith rejects Martin twice and Martin Harris continues. And on the third request, God through Joseph in Revelation agrees to let Martin take the pages. And I just note again, we mentioned this in previous episodes that there's this. I don't know if it's entirely magical, but there's this thing about the power of three where a lot of times you'll see it's always on the third try that something is allowed. So, you know, with the gold plates, you know, the first couple tries, he didn't.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 12:59 On the third try, which I know Joseph says more, but you know, you have these, these Power three. It's not a huge deal, but just to note it. And so Lucy locks the manuscript and Martin reportedly shows it to anyone who comes across. And this is something that.

John Dehlin 13:11 What do you mean? What do you mean, locks the manuscript?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 13:13 So according to the. The story, Lucy gets the manuscript, Martin brings it home, and Lucy locks it into, I think it's a drawer or some sort of chest. And Martin wants to show it to everybody that comes by the house. And so as the story goes. And again, there, there are some differing stories here, but Martin would actually pick the lock so he could get the manuscript out to show somebody. And Lucy was upset that he would pick the lock and not have her do it. And so then, according to the story, that's when she moves it again. And the manuscript's never seen again. So again, we don't know if she burned it, if she tore it up, if she was holding on to it, if she was buried at somewhere.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 13:49 We just. We don't know. And I know there's. There's a lot of theories about that, and a lot of people think she destroyed it. Some people think she was holding it. We just don't know. But at that point in the story, once he picked the lock and she takes it away, it's never seen again.

John Dehlin 14:02 And that must have been devastating to Joseph Smith. I mean, he's not really working a lot. He's not making a lot of money. He's living with Emma's dad, right. Isaac Hale. And Isaac's already not super happy with Joseph. Thinks he's a charlatan to begin with. You know, he absconds with his daughter and so forth. And now he's been working on this manuscript, and then all of a sudden they're 116 pages in, which is a big deal. That's sort of Nephi, the equivalent to Nephi all the way through to what?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 14:34 Well, it goes. Well, it picks up Mosiah. So you got like first Nephi, second Nephi, you got Jacob several books in, right? Yeah, I say, like five books, I think.

John Dehlin 14:42 So it's like five books in. And then all of a sudden their work is gone. I mean, plus. Yeah. And then. Plus, there's the issue of. And we're going to get into this. It's like, well, Joseph, if you're really translating from gold plates, you should just be able to reproduce it. And that's the rub. That's the rub. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 15:00 That's just it. And so the manuscript's never seen again. And then, of course, Martin has to go home or go back to Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin 15:08 And Joseph's going to be super pissed, but he can't be too pissed because Martin's freaking funding the whole deal, Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 15:13 Well, he's funding it. And again, that's the whole thing. When you have control, it's a lot easier to be calm and collected. And when you lose control, then all of a sudden you're scrambling, but you can't let people see you're scrambling. And that really is the whole thing when you're doing something. And again, you're saying it's a con. I know. Is kind of a pejorative term. But in treasure digging, we know he wasn't seeing anything. We know he used a deception with the feather story that we know came from Josiah Stoleho as a believer. So when he's in control, he can do things like put a feather in there and make you believe that the treasure slipped, but the feather stayed at the same time with the manuscript.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 15:47 This is one of those things where he loses control, and all of a sudden in his head, it's like, what do I do to recreate this? And that goes back, and we'll get to it more later, but it really goes back into the translation methods as well. It blows up those whole accounts at the same time, which is another problem that we'll have going forward as we look at these topics.

John Dehlin 16:04 Yeah, yeah. There's always this idea with things like the witnesses seeing the plates. There's always this idea that isn't explicit within Mormonism of, like, your spiritual eyes seeing things with your spiritual eyes. But when you've got a hard manuscript with words, you know, it's a lot different than, like, seeing a vision in the ground of a spirit guarding an alleged treasure. As soon as you've got something physical and tangible, then it's a lot more difficult to fool people. So anyway.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 16:38 And that's the problem. Yeah, and that's, you know, kind of we talked about with the gold plates, too. All right, so if you go to the next slide. And this just. Again, this is very, very well known to any members of the church. But Martin goes back, tells Joseph they lost the pages. And Joseph exclaims, oh, my God, all is lost. All is lost. What shall I do? I have sinned. And basically at this point, the production of the Book of Mormon just completely stops. And Joseph Smith attributes this to God physically taking the plates away from him. And the spectacles, it would be the Urim and Thummim.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 17:09 And this is really important because, again, we have an issue here where we're going to look and see that God has the ability to take away physical objects from Joseph Smith, which would be the plates and the Urim and Thummim, which at the time was just known as the interpreters or the spectacles.

John Dehlin 17:26 Like, are you saying that there's a suggestion that they just disappear?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 17:31 Yes. And so that's the whole point, is that Joseph basically says, they're gone. They were taken away, by the way

John Dehlin 17:35 Joseph goes to the stump where I suppose. And they're just gone.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 17:40 Yeah, and they're just gone. And so to me, that's important because one, you know, to what we were just saying, if you don't have a physical, tangible plate that you have on the table, it's really easy to say they're gone. And in this case, if you bury them out in the woods or whatever the. Whatever Joseph was doing, I know there were there stories that he had them in a box of beans and all that stuff, but wherever they were, it's easy for him to say they're gone because he's in control of that. That he's in control of because they're not physical, they're not around other people.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 18:06 And again, it shows right here that God has the ability to physically move. So in the gold plates, we have Joseph Smith needing to dig them up, and we don't have necessarily God pulling him out of the hill. In this case, we have God being able to do physical work on earth to remove the plates and the spectacles. And I just. I'm kind of hammering on that because that's going to be important as we get going in the story because it really shows, again, the difference between when Joseph is in control of elements of a story and when he's not, and what the limitations become, not just on Joseph, but on God as well.

John Dehlin 18:39 I mean, if I'm Lucy or just the skeptical thinker, I'm thinking immediately to myself, wait a minute. If God can just make the plates and the spectacles appear and disappear, why did he ever need an angel to, like, make Joseph wait four years or however many years? And why didn't he just make them appear to Joseph Smith, visit Joseph himself and just say, hey, here are the plates? Why this whole. And why was Joseph running to protect the plates, beating off people? If God could have just zoomed them away as soon as they were threatened, then why was there any of these shenanigans with Joseph in the plates?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 19:17 Yeah, and then like I said, that's just the whole thing. Like, it's the inconsistency in the story. And the inconsistencies always tend to line up with, again, where Joseph's in control and where he's not. And so in this case, he is in control. He's in control right now of the story of the plates, even though he lost the pages. So it's easy for him to tell Martin, I can't continue translating. I need to take a break. Because God has told me, you know, I've sinned. And because of that, he's taken away my abilities at the same time, you know, with the pages. Well, we'll get into it. But yeah, at the same time, the limitation comes when we have to then explore the part that. Of the story that he. That, you know, God or Joseph should be able to help.

John Dehlin 19:55 Yeah, yeah, go ahead and finish the slide. And then I want to make a couple more observations.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 19:59 Yeah. And so the last part is. And this is kind of like a branching off of our last episode on the translation. But Joseph Smith saying all is lost to me is an indication that this was never a translation, but an oral dictation. Because if Joseph Smith was truly translating, as all of the witness accounts tell us, which is to say he's reading word for word off of the rock, and if he doesn't write it down correctly, it will not move on to the next. Which tells you he can't possibly translate it wrong because the rock itself is an active participant in changing the words every time they're written down.

Joseph Smith's Reaction and Loss of Power

Mike (LDS Discussions) 20:31 And so Joseph Smith, you would think if he had lost the manuscript, would be obviously super upset, but he wouldn't say all is lost because you would just have to redo it. It would be like if I was working on a project at home, and all of a sudden you're assembling an IKEA furniture, and all of a sudden you get three quarters of the way in and you realize you put one of the panels inside out and you're not going to go, all is lost. I lost the IKEA thing. You're going to go, oh, crap, I got to take this apart and put it back together.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 20:55 And in this case, Joseph Smith is indicating the entire project is blown up. And that would only occur if he knows he can't replace it. And that tells you he was not translating as the witnesses tell us, but was orally dictating, because if it was a translation, he'd be able to redo it. So again, he might be mad, but he wouldn't say all is lost. He'd just say, oh, crap, Martin, I gotta do this all over again.

John Dehlin 21:14 Yeah. So there's three things. There's, you know, there's why didn't God just make them appear and disappear whenever they needed to? Then there's why did they have to stop? Because if he's just like that seems too convenient to say God's punishing him by making him wait for a season. And then why isn't this just an opportunity for God to show something miraculous?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 21:37 Right?

John Dehlin 21:38 Because he could have just, number one, replicated the exact text like before and immediately continued. But the fact that he's worried that he can't replicate the text and the fact that he has to wait for a long time, that's just super sus. I mean, the whole thing is ridiculous. But this is like, this right here should be enough. And for Lucy, it was, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 22:01 Yeah. And that's just it. I mean, and the thing is, we're looking at this and I'd done a. When I first started LDSDiscussions.com and I was more in my. You know, to be fair, I was more in that angry stage where I was just really upset of all the things I was learning. I had put a summary page in there, I think. And one of the topic. One of the small parts of that summary was to say that all of the revelations that Joseph Smith gets benefit Joseph Smith. They always get him out of a jam. And so, you know, it's one of those things where when you look at these stories, it's like, why do the revelations seem to always get Joseph out of a jam?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 22:35 Instead of actually just addressing the problem, which we're gonna see, obviously, with this story, but instead of just fixing it, which God should be able to do if he could take the plates away, he goes through all these hoops of telling Joseph, no, you gotta stop. And I think that's a pretty good indication that, you know, God's power is limited to Joseph because Joseph is not being honest about where the power comes from.

John Dehlin 22:58 Yeah. And I guess there's the obvious question of, like, why didn't God just say, hey, Joseph, bring Martin on. He's gonna help you. But at some point he's gonna want the plates or he's gonna want the manuscript and either tell him no, even after three times, keep telling him no, or if he takes it, make sure he manages in a way, because otherwise Lucy's gonna lose it or steal it or destroy it. Like, this is why we have prophets, to see things ahead of time. But then the church will fall back in and we'll get to this. The church will fall back into. Well, God lets humans make mistakes, but then why do we need proph. Prophets at all if God just lets humans make mistakes? Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 23:39 Well, and that's the whole thing. Right. So we're going to have. In this particular story, we're going to have prophets. We're going to have the church telling us that all of this was foreseen, yet at the same time, you can tell when you actually dissect the story that it wasn't. And that is why, in my opinion, this is such an important topic. Because when you read it, it really does seem. Not that it's a throwaway story, because if you're from a critical perspective, you're going to say this shows Joseph couldn't replace the text, which shows he was making up. And I agree with that. But it shows you so much of a window of how Joseph Smith is creating the Book of Mormon.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 24:14 And when he does it, you could see how careful he is. And he leaves these fingerprints all over the scene of the crime. And I'm not calling it a crime, but just for the, you know, just for the analogy. And when you start seeing all the fingerprints all over everything and they're all Joseph's fingerprints, then you really have problems. If you want to claim this is a translation by the method that the witnesses said, or more importantly, if you want to claim this as an ancient record, because we can see the way that it's being reproduced in those pages. It absolutely is being done in a way that is trying to.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 24:43 Basically, it's almost like. And we'll get to it later, but there are parts of that almost are telling you that it's so aware of the fact that it's having to be vague, that it's telling the reader, like, wink, wink. This is why it's vague. And it's almost like the phrase, like, he does protest too much, basically.

John Dehlin 25:00 Okay, so we'll get into that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 25:02 Yeah, so we'll get into that. And then, you know, again, we've talked about this multiple times, but Joseph Smith's power only works when he's in control. And that is such a big part of treasure digging and magic.

John Dehlin 25:14 You know, magicians rely on magicians.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 25:16 Absolutely. And it's the same. It's the reason why magic shows only work if you don't know the joke, the trick. If you know the trick. Magic shows are pretty boring because you're like, oh, I know what he's doing.

John Dehlin 25:25 But also a magician's environment. People are in front of you. You, you know, you control the environment to make the trick work, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 25:33 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And so that's why, to me, it's so important, because all of a sudden, when he loses control of this situation, and this is one of those ones where you can absolutely say he's losing control. Everything that he.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 25:46 All of these supernatural powers just disappear. They just completely disintegrate instantly. And the best way to do this. And again, we talked about this in the Gold Plates episode. Emma Smith rides a horse to Joseph and says, joseph, there are treasure diggers that are going to the hill Cumorah to find the plates. That you left there. Joseph Smith pulls out the rock, tosses it in his hat and says, basically, oh, I knew, Emma, that you were coming. And I've actually, I can look at the plates right now. They're all safe, all is well, there's nothing to worry about. So when Joseph Smith is in control of the, of the situation, he can tell Emma, oh, I see the plates, they're fine.

John Dehlin 26:21 They.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 26:21 Even though there's a band of people that are going to look for him, and I left him in a hollow log, nothing to worry about, which is so suspect alone. But he loses the manuscript, which we know is a real object, like you said earlier, that's a real tangible object. And all of a sudden that seer stone can't locate anything. And so, yeah, so let me just

John Dehlin 26:38 let you drive that point home because I had to think about that for a second. So, number one, why couldn't Joseph have just used the stone with Lucy? Harris knew that they were in trouble and, and predicted this ahead of time, but because if you're a skeptic and you don't believe there were plates because the plates weren't anywhere. Of course Joseph can tell Emma the plates are fine because they don't exist.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 27:00 Exactly.

John Dehlin 27:01 Whereas the manuscript exists. And all of a sudden, Joseph can't use the seer stone to tell Emma or to protect the manuscript at all. Is that right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 27:10 Yeah. And the thing is, you can make the argument of like, well, why didn't God warn Joseph in the Revelation? Like, if you let Martin take him, you're gonna lose him. That would be one thing that would show Joseph was a prophet. Except it wouldn't, because then, in theory, he wouldn't bring him. But to your point, even after Lucy has them, the seer stone should be able to tell him if Lucy still has them or if she destroyed them, if she still has them where they are. And then he could just go get them. He could send Martin and say, martin, she put them in a little under a bench outside of, you know, outside of the house.

John Dehlin 27:41 You know, these other bad guys got them. And it's in 401 Downing street, you know.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 27:48 Yeah. I mean, and again, it sounds facetious, but that's the thing. This is Joseph Smith's claimed powers that he can pull. And we covered that in our last few videos. We showed videos from the church where they declared without any hesitation. Joseph Smith could find lost objects with his peep.

John Dehlin 28:03 He's a seer.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 28:04 He's a seer. Yep. And so all of a sudden he loses something that is so important to. I mean, again, going through the Church's narrative, this is literally the most important thing to happen since the Bible. And all of a sudden, that stone can't do anything, can't tell them where they are or what happened to them.

John Dehlin 28:22 So a skeptic would say he can only see things that don't exist when it's actually something that exists that's somewhere out there and he doesn't know, all of a sudden his seer powers disappear.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 28:35 Yeah, I mean, or he could see what he has control over. So, like, you know, there's a story where, like, someone loses a cow and Joseph is able to find it. And then the quote is something like, oh, Joseph Smith's able to locate things a little too easily, so he's not really seeing it because, of course, he moved it. But, yeah, to your point, if you can't see physical objects that are around you that are that important, then how in the world are we supposed to believe any of the rest of the story? And that's why these overview projects are laid out in a way to build on each other, because we've already covered that the Seer Stone doesn't work, but now we're showing why.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 29:06 Even if you want to use the church as apologetic to say, like Richard Bushman said, this was a preparation. So the Seer Stone prepare Joseph Smith to be able to do this work. It didn't because the magic didn't work then, and it doesn't work now with the 116 pages. It just. It doesn't work in any. At any point.

John Dehlin 29:21 He only sees the undisprovable.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 29:25 Well, yeah, and that's just it. So it's like now all of a sudden, you know, he loses what, again, is, if you want to go with the Church's narrative, one of the most important things to come through the earth, and nothing. He can't even tell if they're. If they're still there. And, yeah, that's. That's a big red flag. I just. I don't know what more to say. That alone tells you what you need to know about Joseph Smith's ability as a seer.

John Dehlin 29:45 Yeah, this should be. I mean, okay, I'll. I'll. I'll reserve my commentary. Okay, next slide.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 29:51 And so the next slide is just, you know, again, we kind of, you know, talked about this just now, so we really don't need to go over too much more. But this shows that as soon as Joseph Smith loses control, he loses all of his power. It also shows that if you Believe God is channeling through the seer stone, which is what is taught, that God loses the power to show Joseph Smith. Now, the apologetic is that God takes away the power, and so God's punishing Joseph. But that, again, has a lot of implications we'll get into as we go through it. And then the last one is just to say, this is the perfect opportunity for Joseph Smith to prove himself a prophet.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 30:24 And there's no record of Joseph Smith even claiming to say he could see him or trying to locate him, which shows me that Joseph Smith is well aware of the fact that he has no control and therefore no ability to do it, because he's not even. There's no account that I've seen that indicates that Joseph Smith is telling those around him, I can see him, and she's trying to expose me, or I can see him and she's altering him.

John Dehlin 30:44 I mean, it's kind of weird that Emma's like, joseph, just look at your stone. Go find him. I mean, she probably did, but he probably didn't tell anybody or write that down. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 30:53 That's just it. I mean. And so, you know, it's like one of those things where it's like all of the signs are here, where if you told a believing member of the church this story and you said it was Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, David Koresh, Warren Jeffs, and they obviously the John de La. Yeah, or John de Lynn, or me. I came and I said, I found this ancient record.

John Dehlin 31:14 Every person is going to go, you're making it up. You'd laugh us out of the room.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 31:18 They would. And they'd be right to do so. Because if you're going to claim powers and every time you have the opportunity to prove yourself, you fail. Claiming that the reason they fail is because God wants you to have faith, it really becomes indistinguishable from outright fraud. Because you can make that claim. Again, we've talked about in previous episodes as well, you can make that claim for anything. And so it just going by the evidence at face value, it doesn't work.

John Dehlin 31:40 That's important.

The Seer Stone and Prophetic Revelations

Mike (LDS Discussions) 31:42 And so I kind of referenced this a little bit ago, but one of the themes you'll see with revelations in the church is that God is always helping Joseph out of a jam. And so this is going to be from doctrine and covenants 10, which is going to be written long after the event happens. So again, just like we talked about with the Book of Mormon translation, the gold plates, these accounts are being written months later. So they're being written with Joseph Smith kind of having a different perspective. But the part I want to read just says, now, behold, I say unto you that because you delivered up those writings into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 32:11 You also lost your gift at the same time, and your mind became darkened. And behold, Satan hath put into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written or which you have translated. Behold, I say unto you that you shall not translate again those words which have gone forth out of your hands. For behold, they shall not accomplish their evil designs in lying against those words. For behold, if you should bring forth the same words, they will say that you have lied and that you have pretended to translate, but that you have contradicted yourself. And behold, they will publish this and Satan will harden the hearts of the people to stir them up to anger against you that they will not believe my words.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 32:45 And, you know, it's one of those things where we. Why don't we just go to the next slide, actually, because we can go through some of the issues with this one. First of all, this revelation was not recorded until at least April. The Joseph Smith Papers Project actually says it was likely May, just because of the different ways the phrases being used and all of that. They think it was May, which would be basically when Joseph Smith has already been working with Oliver and he's probably getting to the point where he needs to know what to do with the replacement text. And so this revelation is being written as a way to give Joseph a springboard to set up how he's going to replace the text.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 33:23 And that happens later. And we'll get to that later as well. To note again that the current doctrine and Covenants 10 that you'll find in your scriptures is going to be different. They add a lot of stuff and they add the term Urim and thummim, which is not in the original. We've mentioned that repeatedly. And I just want to keep pointing that out because that is a retrofitted term that has nothing to do with the original translation because the Urim and thummim is an incorrect use of a translating tool anyways. It just shows how the church is willing to, I guess, rename or rebrand biblical terms to take away the folk magic. Because they don't want to say they're

John Dehlin 33:56 trying to hide the peepstone. They're trying to.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 33:57 Yeah, they don't want to say peep or, you know, they'll say seer stone, but, you know, I always say peep slash Seer Stone, because I know Peep Stone.

John Dehlin 34:03 It's derogatory.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 34:04 It's derogatory, but that's how it was referred to at the time by everyone who wasn't in the church. But Seer Stone, I believe is also misleading because he never saw anything. So for me, so for anyone listening, if you're like, why do you keep saying peep slash seerstone? It's because I'm trying to be respectful to believing members but also trying to mention the fact that that is Peepstone is how it was referred.

John Dehlin 34:23 So anyway, Seer Stone's literally anachronistic. To call it a Seer Stone.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 34:26 Yeah, that's just it, you know, and to call it, to call it Urim and thumb is anachronistic. And so the whole thing is he's using the same treasure digging techniques. We've covered that. So DNC10 is entirely to the benefit of Joseph Smith because even though God is chastising Joseph, in this revelation, he's really chastising Martin. He calls him a wicked man, but then he kind of chastises Joseph for letting the papers go out. But again, remember Joseph Smith asked God three times. On the third time he was given permission to give him to Martin. So to blame Joseph is kind of silly because God on the third time could have just, you know, and again I realized from, that's a good point.

John Dehlin 34:59 Why didn't God say no the third time?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 35:01 Yeah, God could have said no the third time and said no. Lucy Harris is waiting to set a trap which is too important.

John Dehlin 35:06 This is way too important.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 35:07 This is too important to take away. Or you know, if you want to really go this route, you could say yes, Martin Harris can take the manuscript back, but I need you to make a second copy because we, I believe Lucy Harris heart is hardened and she's going to try to expose you. But none of that happens. And so My point is DNC10 and Joseph does this a lot where he'll chastise himself in these revelations while at the same time creating himself an opening when his leadership's being questioned or when some of his prophecies aren't coming to pass.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 35:34 It's a really great tool. And you'll hear people in the church all the time say Joseph Smith was so humble and God humbled him a lot in these revelations by calling him out. Even though he was prophet, God still went after him. It's like. Except it was really self serving. You know, it's one of those things that is really an easy thing to do when you're in charge of a church to say, God's upset with me because of this, but he's also upset with you, so you got to do your part too.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 35:58 And DNC10 really accomplishes that because Joseph Smith needs an out to make these replacement texts seem like they're not just being made up because he doesn't know how to do it. And so this is going to give him a roadmap on how to replace it.

John Dehlin 36:10 Can I check in with you on the logic of D&C10 just really quickly?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 36:14 Yeah, go for it.

John Dehlin 36:16 Okay. So again, it's weird that God's. It's weird that this is written. Why? This wasn't written when he was working with Martin, but instead this is written way later when he's trying to, like, wrap things up and tie things up. I think that's a good point. He's like realizing, man, this is all problematic. I gotta have some sort of justification. And then all of a sudden, the revelation comes. But I wanna read this thing again. Behold, I say to you that you shall not translate again those words which have gone forth out of your hands. For, behold, they shall not accomplish their evil designs in lying against those words.

John Dehlin 36:56 For behold, if you should bring forth the same words, they will say that you have lied and that you have pretended to translate, but that you have contradicted yourself. Now, wait a minute. Why wouldn't they just go, oh, my gosh, he really is translating because he was able to reproduce the identical words. I just don't understand. Explain God's logic there.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 37:18 Well, I mean, again, the logic is that God, via Joseph Smith, is very insecure and very unconfident. And that really is the problem that we're going to have when you go through this text, which is to say that why is it that God, who we believe, again, can go and just grab plates out of Joseph's possession and who can strike people dumb when it comes to this, cannot find a way to effectively stop people from lying. And, you know, well, what's God's logic?

John Dehlin 37:55 What's God's logic? Just help me understand God's logic. If Joseph reproduces an identical manuscript, why is, why does God think that that would, that would cause problems?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 38:05 Okay, so let's go to the next slide. But yeah, so the logic is that if he recreates it exactly that, that Lucy Harris is going to forge the original manuscript to say something different and then say, Joseph Smith, change it. Yeah, and so that's the problem.

John Dehlin 38:19 But then, but then you could just look at Lucy's handwriting. Oh, forge it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 38:24 Yep, that's the problem. And so I remember that now.

John Dehlin 38:30 Yep, interesting.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 38:33 And so now all of a sudden you're in a position where you're looking at.

John Dehlin 38:37 But then those, the forgeries would be like written in the margins with little carrots. If the ink would look different, the handwriting would look different. I'm kind of calling God. I'm calling BS on God on that one.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 38:50 Well, yeah, I think it would be

John Dehlin 38:51 pretty obvious if all the differences were like little carrots in different ink with different handwriting. I'm calling BS on God.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 39:00 And the thing is, like, you know, and that's why when I did the earlier slides, I kept saying, God becomes powerless. And so again, for our conversation, I don't believe this is God. I believe this is Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin 39:09 I know, I know, I know, I know.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 39:11 Yeah. So, yeah, I'm just trying to give

John Dehlin 39:13 God the benefit of the doubt here.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 39:14 No, no, I know. And again, it shows. If you want. And if you want to believe. And let's go to the next slide. So I think this is kind of on there, but if you want to believe that God is this power, this all powerful being, why in the world can he not stop someone as insignificant as Lucy Harris from doing that? And so, you know, we kind of covered this. So is it this slide or the next one? Well, this one just says, you know, basically it reveals not just the insecurity of Joseph's abilities, but of God's. Because, like, to your point, God is basically in this revelation saying, I can't control the situation.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 39:45 So we're just going to completely. We're going to pick up the football and go home and do something different. And that's a problem because you're, you know, you claim to have this perfect translation from the accounts we have from the last episode. We talk about all of the witnesses saying it's perfect off the stone. And then God's basically saying, well, if we do that, they're going to forge it. Except there's no Photoshop. Back then in Master Forgers were, you know, there were, there were, there were forgeries. Then these, this now fool's cap paper, it's really long. You know, we have samples of Martin Harris's handwriting. You would know. And it would just be so obvious. And, and yeah, that's the problem. And so let's go to the next.

Lucy Harris, the Manuscript, and Apologetic Framing

John Dehlin 40:20 I guess I'm just saying. And I'll just summarize this. I think this is important. So there's, there's two possible problems. One Is that problem number one is that, is that Joseph's going to be able to create an identical manuscript, which is going to make a whole lot of people impressed.

John Dehlin 40:41 But then Lucy's going to edit a few things and then God and Joseph can just go, hey, everyone, look. Every time there's a change, it's in different handwriting with different ink and it's in the margins. That's problem one. How many, I'm trying to think, how many problems is that going to pose to the ongoing narrative versus Joseph having to create an entirely different beginning to the Book of Mormon? And then all of the. Just the fact that he can't reproduce it, and then all of the footprint fingerprint problems that we're going to discuss later. If God's really worried about how this is going to affect people's beliefs, it seems like the path that God chose is way more fraught than if he had just went ahead and let Joseph, plus the time that they lost.

John Dehlin 41:32 It just seems like even, even if you're giving God and Joseph the benefit of the doubt, it seems like God chose the way more fraught and problematic path for people's ultimate belief. If that's God's logic, he wants the. The highest number of believers as possible and that he doesn't want a narrative that then causes a bunch of doubts. It seems like God still went with the path that generated the most doubts. Am I wrong?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 42:01 No, I mean, and that's the thing. I think we actually, I think in some of the slides, I kind of.

John Dehlin 42:04 Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 42:06 No, no, no, it's fine. It's just. And that's the thing, because the fact is we're going through this and it's leading you to that point because that's where the evidence is going to lead you to.

John Dehlin 42:14 Well, we can be more brief, but I just. For me, it's helpful to look at this with fresh eyes and process.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 42:20 And that's why it's good, because I think when we go through this overview, if that's where it leads you, and I think that's important because you're going there without me even getting to that slide yet.

John Dehlin 42:29 Okay, so when I do that, we could just be briefer on the summary slides.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 42:32 Yeah, no, it's fine. That's why this is the ultimate win win scenario. This is like the perfect opportunity for Joseph and God through Joseph Smith, if he translates it and it's the same as we told in the last episode, would be the only option, given that we are told it's a tight translation. He proves himself a prophet. If he retranslates it and Lucy provides, like an altered copy, people are going to know because they didn't lack or they didn't have Photoshop. And it would be pretty obvious that she changed it. And then that would also prove that someone is trying to take down Joseph Smith, which is a win for him.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 43:05 And then the last one is, and this is really important, if Lucy Smith was going to produce altered text to embarrass Joseph Smith, she could do it anyways, even if Joseph Smith creates a completely separate thing. So the idea that this somehow stops her from exposing him makes no sense because she could in theory just recreate another set of manuscripts and say, I know he tried to change them with a different story, but look, you can see all the differences. You could see where he made stuff up. So it really doesn't fix the problem because she could do it anyways if that's what she wanted to do.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 43:35 It doesn't really. Yeah, I mean, it's a great point. Yeah. All he's doing is. I mean, all this would be doing is going through all of this extra work to put a speed bump on a highway. You know what I mean? Like, it's not going to. It would slow her down for a second and then she would regroup, just as Joseph Smith is. If you really believe this is some sort of, like, chess game of trying to expose him. And so all of this work that we're going to see with the replacement text is being done basically out of his own fear that she's going to expose him when she could do it anyways.

John Dehlin 44:01 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 44:02 You know, it really is showing that Joseph Smith, I think, is just so insecure about his abilities, more so than anything else.

John Dehlin 44:11 Or that he's just. It's not true what he's claiming.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 44:13 Well, yeah, yeah. And he knows it's not true and he knows that he can't reproduce it because of the fact that it's an orally translated book. Again, if it was truly a tight translation, as you just do it over, you know, again, it's like, you know, if you're. It would be like if you're, you know, your job is to data processing and you're typing up like a. A transcript and you got to type it into another sheet and then all of a sudden the file gets deleted on accident. You just go, okay, go back to the first page. Just going to retype it out into this file.

John Dehlin 44:41 This is so great.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 44:42 Yeah, it's so important. Anyways, we'll keep going.

John Dehlin 44:45 There's one last point I want to make, which we all need to watch out for. There's this idea that within Mormon history and Mormon apologetics, from the Mormon Church's standpoint, the house always wins because on the one hand, we. Why do we even have plates at all? Why do we even. Why did Joseph even claim to have plates, claim to translate? Why. Why didn't Joseph just produce the Book of Mormon and say that he had plates and an angel, but no one had to ever see them? You know, it's because the Church, Joseph wanted everyone to think that this was all existing in the material world, that it's an actual history with actual prophets and actual plates. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 45:25 I mean, that's just it.

John Dehlin 45:26 But then at any point where, like, all of a sudden the story becomes problematic, what is the Church? What do apologists always fall back on? Well, we can't have too much evidence or else people wouldn't need faith. And so you have to sort of recognize that tactic of, yes, there's evidence, but then when the evidence is problematic, well, we don't want to give too much faith. It's like showing a little bit of leg, but not enough leg. Like, at some point, why, you know, the house always wins with. With the Mormon Church in its history. You can always fall back on an explanation when it doesn't make sense, which is God didn't want to give you too much evidence or else you. You'd have no reason to have faith.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 46:08 Well, yeah, and it's just. Again, it's. It's. We'll get to it as we go. But the whole point is, if the whole. If the. If the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to convert as many people to it as he can, why is God setting up Joseph Smith to look like a false prophet? And it's not just here. We'll get to this later on with the Book of Abraham. So, again, if you apply the logic of DNC10, which is that I will not suffer my prophet to fall, why is God then allowing Joseph Smith to look like a fraud with the Book of Abraham?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 46:32 And I don't want to jump ahead. I'm just saying the inconsistencies in this story is another area where you can show that Joseph Smith is the one that's kind of driving the car through it. So, anyway, so Joseph Smith is going to resume dictating the Book of Mormon by continuing with Mosiah, which is what the revelation from God tells him to do, which is to say, start where you left off. And then when you get to the end, we're going to give you this new set. And so. Okay, wait, did he.

John Dehlin 46:57 Did he not stop for several months?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 46:59 He did. He stopped for. I want to say, like. Well, it was for. I think the phrase was a season, but I think he stopped for, like, nine months or something.

John Dehlin 47:06 Okay, so he's pissed at Martin.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 47:07 He stopped for a while, he's pissed

John Dehlin 47:09 at Martin, and all of a sudden he, quote, loses the plates and loses his ability to translate. This is just for the people that don't know the story. He basically fires Martin as translator. Right. And then as scribe. And then all of a sudden, he's going several months now, presumably. I think John Haber talked about this. We probably talked about this. He's probably having to figure out during that time how he's gonna. Yeah. How he's gonna do this now, now that he's lost the first 116 pages and knows that he has to completely rewrite them. So what do you think Joseph's doing during the season, quote, that he's not translating?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 47:48 Yeah, I don't. You know, it's funny. I don't know, because it'd be on one hand, he might have kind of been one of those things where you just kind of go, I got to do something else for now until I can figure it out. And so maybe he's just going back to, you know, working on the farm,

John Dehlin 47:58 or maybe he's depressed. And just.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 48:00 Maybe he's depressed. I mean, that's the thing. Like, you're not going to. In a lot of ways, this is a. An event that kind of stops you completely dead in your tracks. And I think it forces him to try to find a way to come up with the beginning again or how to navigate. And honestly, I don't even think he does that before Oliver Cowdery come. And I think, you know, Oliver Cowdery comes, and they immediately start working very fast together. And it would appear that when Oliver Cowdery comes, maybe the fact that Oliver was such a believer in all of this allowed him to work faster.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 48:37 And then as he gets going, he finds his sea legs, I guess, and all of a sudden he's able to kind of to navigate it. But, yeah, I don't know. It's an interesting one. I know Don Bradley's written a book about the 116 pages. I haven't read the book. I've listened to some of his interviews, and this overview was written before that. And I think he talks more about the actual event of the 116 pages story in his book. But to me, what's really important is how he replaces it. But, yeah, it's all speculation because we don't have any real contemporary evidence to say that he was, you know, kind of doing notes or anything. It just sounds like he just kind of sets it down and then picks it back up.

John Dehlin 49:10 Okay, so he fires Martin, goes several months and doesn't do anything, decides to start up again, and he brings Oliver as the new scribe. Isn't it a smoking gun, or isn't it a red flag that he doesn't just start over, but that he starts where he left off? Because you would think that if he just had the Seer Stone and was translating, no matter what he was doing, he would just start again from the beginning.

John Dehlin 49:37 But the fact that he starts where he left off sort of suggests to me that there was already a narrative, like a script or an outline or a story that he was working from. And he just said, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and just finish what I was already working on, the story that I already had in my head or. Or the outlines that I already had in my notes. I'll just finish it and then go back and figure out what to do at the beginning. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 50:05 Well, I don't think he had a script. And as we. When we go, go through to the replacement text.

The Replacement Text and Its Origins

John Dehlin 50:09 An outline.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 50:10 An outline, maybe. But even then, one of the things that the replacement text tells us is that the people in the beginning of the book know the ending before the middle does. So while I think he has an idea in his head how he's going to do it, he's not developed the ending, at least at that point. And so that, I think, is an indication that he is working through the story in his head. And I think that might also be why he works so hard to say that the replacement text is a different focus, it's more religious instead of more secular. And then to your other question, I think it's a red flag because I think personally.

John Dehlin 50:41 Okay, so wait, you don't think that Joseph Smith, like, you know, how J.K. rowling would have had to write out the whole outline?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 50:48 Yeah.

John Dehlin 50:49 You don't think that Joseph, when he started with Martin at the very beginning, had in his mind the basic arc, the basic characters, the basic plot from start to finish? And I'm not trying to load the question.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 51:04 No. I mean, it's a surprise to me. Okay, so I'll give you two things. One is, I think sometimes you have an outline in your head. And then as you start doing it, you change it. And so for me, I work, I've mentioned before I run a small business and before my kid was born, I would be. I worked a lot of hours because I did all of myself. And I would sit down on the couch and I was writing a book for fun. Not like one of those, you know, it's not a masterpiece, but it's like, it's a lot. It's actually about the same length as the Book of Mormon.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 51:33 And it's one of those ones I want to get back to and edit. But the point is, when I started writing the book, I had the idea in my head what I wanted to do. So every night I would do part of a chapter or a chapter of the case might be, and then all of a sudden I'd get further in and I'd go, you know what? I wanted to do this, but I'm going to change it because it actually, I had thought of this better idea as I was doing this earlier part. And I think with Joseph Smith, because it's an orally dictated text, I think he has the ideas in his head of what he wants to do.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 51:57 But I also think he's got, and we're going to go in some of the future overviews are going to talk about this, but he's got events that are happening around him that are going to influence the text of the Book of Mormon. And he's also got Emilio around him that's influencing the text. And so I think, to your point, he probably has a rough outline in his head of, like, what the story is. And I think a lot of that's built on, like, the mound builder myth and all that other things. But I also think that as he's doing it because it's orally dictated, he is allowing himself the ability to make changes.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 52:24 And you see that because of the replacement text. Replacement text tells us that Joseph Smith changes at least some of the events midway to the end of the book. And then when he writes the replacement text, he doesn't really realize that they're kind of late additions in the book. And so when he writes them into the replacement text, all of a sudden, as a critical reader, you can look and then say, okay, I know that the replacement text was written at the end because it knows the ending before a lot of the people in the book do.

John Dehlin 52:51 Okay, so we'll get it. This is where it kind of gets into the weeds, but it's really, it's really important so viewers and listeners Stick with us. This is about to get technical, but there's a big payoff.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 53:03 Yeah, I think it's important.

John Dehlin 53:04 Okay. All right, so go ahead. Thanks for helping me.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 53:07 We actually. We just kind of talked about. Be good. So he basically, Joseph Smith continues with Mosiah, finishes the Book of Mormon, and then he's going to go back and replace the text at the end. And this is what leads Joseph Smith, who I presume to be the author of the Book of Mormon, to leave fingerprints all over the text and clues that the characters early in the Book of Mormon know the ending before the characters in the middle of the Book of Mormon do, which is an indication that it's being written by somebody, as opposed to reading off of plates. Because if these plates are being written engraved concurrently, they wouldn't know the ending of the book.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 53:39 And so this again tells you that this is not going to be an ancient record tightly translated by the power of God. Because if so, then God is basically allowing Joseph Smith to bring in. I mean, in a lot of ways, we talk about anachronisms. It's anachronistic to have some of these things early in the book because they're out of place. And so, you know, that's a really important element to keep in mind as we go. And so if we go to the

John Dehlin 54:03 next, I'm just gonna summarize that. Cause it took me a second to really get that. So what everyone we need to watch for now is, so Joseph's gonna do Mosiah to 4th Nephi or whatever. He's gonna finish out the book, and then he's going to replace the 116 pages. This is a clear opportunity. If we see that the characters in the. The replacement text that replaces the 116 pages, if they magically know everything that comes after them, you could always write that off as them just being prophetseers and revelators and knowing the future. But it's also a red flag if they all of a sudden have magic powers to know the ending. Okay, that makes sense to me. I just wanted to repeat it. All right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 54:48 And I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but picture you're watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and you watch Fellowship of the Ring. And Fellowship of the Ring is talking about the final battle with Sauron and all of the stuff that happens in that third movie. And they're all aware of everything that's gonna happen in that third movie. And then you get to this, the Two Towers, the second movie, and they're constantly like, not sure what's gonna happen next. And you'd go, why are they not sure what's gonna happen next? But in the previous movie, in Fellowship of the Ring, the first third, they're already knowing.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 55:16 And that is exactly what's gonna. Oops. That's. That's what's gonna happen here, which is where you're going to have the characters in the Book of Mormon making these prophecies that the people in the middle don't know. So then you have to say, well, either they forgot them, which makes no sense because they're so important, or it's because we know the dictation order and that's why it's so important. And this is. So if we go to the next slide, I want to give a really, really large shout out to Brent Metcalf. And I've never met him in real life, but he did an episode, a very long episode with you.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 55:44 And it was one of the ones I listened to early on when I was trying to figure this stuff out. And he was the one that did so much work on the process, the order of the dictation. And if you see here, and this is a really easy, quick way to look at it, and this is a chart he had done in the New Approaches to the Book of Mormon book, and.

John Dehlin 56:04 Which is what got him excommunicated, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:07 Yeah, this is what got him excommunicated. And so I want you to look at the right.

John Dehlin 56:10 Yeah, if someone gets excommunicated, it's a sure sign that they're saying something true.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:15 Well, yeah. And it's just. And this is work that should be harmless if the Book of Mormon is true, and if it's not true, people deserve to know it. And so the column on the left is going through the books of the Book of Mormon by the order of dictation, which starts with Mosiah, goes to the end, and then starts back with first Nephi. And if you look on the left, it says therefore and wherefore. And what's amazing is you can see that if you look using the linear order of the translation, Joseph Smith switches from using primarily therefore to primarily wherefore around ether. So all of a sudden, ether it goes way more wherefore.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:52 And then In Moroni, it's 38, 0. And then first Nephi 9813, 138, 20. And the point is that we can tell the dictation order, and we can tell that Joseph Smith there's a sole author because of the fact that they're using the same instances or the same patterns of wherefore and therefore before the ending of the Book of Mormon. So he starts doing that before he finishes. So otherwise you could say, well, this is because there are two sets of plates, except that this starts before Joseph would finish the translation. And then to kind of make the point even more clear, if you look at dnc, Brett Metcalfe went and did the counts here, you see the same pattern in the DNC sections if you go in order.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 57:28 And so what that's telling you is the person who wrote the DNC is the person who wrote the Book of Mormon. And again, if you want to make the case that Joseph is a co author to the Book of Mormon, which a lot of apologists today are doing, you can do that. That opens up a lot of other issues we'll have to get into down the road.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 57:43 But the point is, just for the purposes of this chart, it's not so much that the wherefore and therefore the words themselves are significant. It's about the fact that we can show that the person who wrote the Book of Mormon changes their writing style before the beginning, before the ending of the Book of Mormon. And so it carries through the end into the beginning. And if you're reading the Book of Mormon in the order it's published, you wouldn't notice this. But looking at it from a linear from in the order of dictation, this is a really big clue to us as to the writing style.

John Dehlin 58:14 Okay, and so just to make sure I understand what you're saying here, you're saying that between Mosiah and the end of the Book of Mormon, Joseph started falling in love with using the word wherefore.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 58:26 Yes.

John Dehlin 58:27 And. And that as he increasingly uses the word wherefore, then all of a sudden when he picks back up into First Nephi, he's really using it a lot. And it shows this increasing trend. Is that what you're saying? Is that what Brett's saying?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 58:42 And again, it's not so much the trend of the words, but what it's showing is, so Joseph Smith is going to finish, you know, he's going to do the title page and then, you know, Moroni, and then he's going to kick back to the beginning. Right. And because he already makes this change in ether, he's already changed his writing style in ether, and then he carries that into First Nephi, which tells you that the replacement text is being written by the same person who wrote the Book of Mormon and not from some second set of plates. That we're going to be told is created. And so it just shows that you have the same author. And because of those tendencies with therefore and wherefore, we can show that that tendency started before the end of the book and then carries over back into the beginning.

John Dehlin 59:20 Well, okay. And I just want to make sure I understand it because these types of things can get lost on people. It's very technical. So I hear you saying two things. The fact that the use of the word wherefore increases shows that, number one, Joseph is falling more and more in love with using the word wherefore. Number two, that because the trend increases once he starts over with first Nephi, that it shows us the sequence that they're written. And then the third thing is it shows that the Book of Mormon was written by a single author versus individual authors. Although I guess the apologetic is that because Moroni is abridging this.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:00:05 Right.

John Dehlin 1:00:05 That it's Moroni that's falling in love. You could theorize that it's Moroni that's falling in love with the. With the. With the reformed Egyptian equivalent to the word wherefore.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:00:17 But that's.

John Dehlin 1:00:18 That's kind of silly.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:00:20 Well, yeah, so basically the first point doesn't matter. The actual word wherefore and therefore doesn't matter. But yeah, it's to show that basically we're told these are on two different sets of plates, and yet the writing style carries over from the first one directly into the second one, which is a problem if you want to believe they're two distinctly different sets of plates. And then it also, as Brent Metcalfe did such a great job of, it just helps you to establish the order of production, which I think every major, like mainstream Mormon scholar, believing and not, you know, believing scholars that work for the church would all agree to the Mosiah priority dictation order. Now.

John Dehlin 1:00:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And then someone would look at the wherefore column with the final Enos, Jerem Omni and Words of Mormon and see the dropping off. But is that just because there's shorter chapters?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:01:07 Yeah, I mean, that's just because you don't have as many times to use the word. So I think just, you know, and to be fair, like, I know it's six nothing, three nothing. Those are small, small things. It's just showing that he basically, you know, at that point, there's just not a lot of words to kind of

John Dehlin 1:01:20 technically, it should be kind of wherefores per total chapter words you're going to

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:01:24 do that have a better Way to look at it. But if you look at the chart, it's pretty clear. You could see the shift. And.

John Dehlin 1:01:30 But also he's falling out of love with therefore as well.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:01:34 Yeah. And the fact that you could see it, that shift in the DNC as well, I think is important because again, it shows the author of the DNC is also the author. And I know the apologetic would be say, well, God's channeling the words to him, so that's why they're changing. But then you'd have to say, well, why is God. Why is God changing his. His writing style? Because that, again, opens up a lot of problems.

John Dehlin 1:01:51 And then finally, to your point, you could just say, well, of course, this is where Bushman is his receded to now, where it's like, well, Joseph influenced the text. Joseph's in there. That's why we have inaccuracies and anachronisms. But then at that point, we've got the tight translation, which. How do you account for the tight translation?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:02:12 And that's just it. So, I mean, like, yeah, like Michael Ash has a book that says the same thing, whereas he's a co author. But again, if you do that, you have to account for the different parts. So.

John Dehlin 1:02:20 Okay, thank you for letting me talk through this. But no, this isn't the type of stuff where my eyes glaze over and I never really learn it. So if I don't slow down and think it through and I know there's smarter, smarter people out there that immediately get it, and I'm just asking everyone to please forgive us because there's. Some of us are slower thinkers.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:02:38 So no, it's. And when I did the overview, it's the same thing. It's just. It's confusing because there's a lot of. There's a lot of things. You're going back and forth, back and forth, but once you. Once you kind of establish it, it's so good. So anyway, so I'm gonna use a lot of material from Brett Metcalf because it's really important. And so he talks about how the early part of the Book of Mormon knows about Jesus before literally anyone else in the world. So Brett Metcalf is going to say, he says in his writing, enveloping is particularly evident in discussion of the advent of Jesus.

Birth Date Prophecies in the Book of Mormon

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:03:05 For example, early in the narrative, Nephi relates that Lehi, an angel, and the prophets had all predicted that Jesus would be born 600 years from the time Lehi left Jerusalem. However, subsequent Book of Mormon prophets seem unaware of these extraordinary oracles. At a Nephite revival, King Benjamin comments that the time cometh and is not far distant, that the Lord shall come down from heaven and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay. And Brett Metcalf notes that this is surprising because the scriptures that he would possess on these plates already told him that this is not going to occur for another over 120 years away. And so why is King Benjamin saying that the time is soon when he already would have?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:03:42 If, you know, if you would believe that there's a small set of plates, he would already have the prophecy that it's still over 120 years away. It really makes no sense.

John Dehlin 1:03:51 So are you saying, and I'm sorry again, I'm just thinking this through, are you saying that when Joseph started with Mosiah, he's not sure what's going to happen, how he's going to end the book. And so the prophets, like King Benjamin also don't know how he's going to end the book. But then by the time he ends the book, Jesus is coming and so forth. And then all of a sudden, the earliest prophets, like Nephi and others, now they know things that Benjamin didn't know,

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:04:24 because now they know.

John Dehlin 1:04:25 So more specificity. With more specificity.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:04:28 And that's the thing. So when Joseph's writing the replacement text, he knows the ending. So all of a sudden he can make these prophecies that are like. It's almost like he's writing in a prophecy he knows is going to be fulfilled, which is a really powerful thing. In the Book of Mormon, we hear that all the time that prophecies are fulfilled. Well, they're fulfilled because the writer of the Book of Mormon knows what's going to happen. Again, you know, I'm trying, you know, again, I want to be as respectful as we can here, but when you are writing a book and you are in control of the text, you can then fulfill your own prophecies.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:04:53 And in this case, Joseph's literally written the end, and so he can be even more specific and give the 600 year date, which is a problem because of the fact that the middle of the book is unaware of that. And that tells you that the dictation order, and it also makes you have to then address why is it. Yeah, and you can make, you know, and we'll get to the apologetics on this, but the argument is basically that the middle prophets had so much material that this just got lost in the shuffle. This is not a small thing. This is one of the biggest. This is the Biggest coming.

John Dehlin 1:05:21 Yeah, yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:05:22 And so you can't just say like, oh, you know, you know, it's a minor detail, like, oh, I forgot to, you know, pick up my kid from an after school thing. It's like, no, no, no. This is like the biggest thing in the whole, in your whole life. So you would not forget that.

John Dehlin 1:05:32 There's one other red flag that I've repeated a couple times, but it's just really important. Why did Adam, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, Isaiah, all the Old Testament prophets not know when Jesus was coming, not know Jesus name, not baptized, not do the gift of the Holy Ghost, not have Protestant sermons? Why did none of the Old Testament contain any of this? But somehow God was willing to be super specific, not only be super specific about naming Jesus and telling them exactly when he's coming in the Book of Mormon pre Jesus prophets, but also they start baptizing in the name of Jesus and conferring the Holy Ghost and preaching Protestant sermons like that is a major throbbing sore thumb of a red flag.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:06:24 Yeah, I mean it's just, it's anachronistic in every way. And again it's, you know, we'll get into the 19th century stuff down the road in the other overviews, but yeah, I mean like even going away from the issues that come from the translation or the dictation, the anachronisms of having a 19th century Christology in a book that's claimed to be, you know, thousands of years old, it simply just doesn't work.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:06:46 Anyways, more from From Brent, from the amazing Brent Metcalf. Alma speaks of Jesus's advent in similarly general terms. The kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, the time is not far distant, not many days hence, and the day of salvation draweth nigh. Alma sincerely hopes that it might be in his day. His reticence or inability to disclose Jesus's birthday is explicable in his admission. We know not how soon. Thus Alma, Benjamin and their audiences did not know what Lehi, Nephi, an angel, anonymous, Old World prophets and their sacred literature had known with certainty that Jesus would be born 600 years after the Lehigh departed for the Americas.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:07:24 So again, it's just circling this again to say there are so many examples where the early prophets know these things and then you get to the middle ones and the middle ones are just completely, not just confused, but they're, you know, they're contradicting the earlier prophets. And that makes no sense considering that these plates are so important to be engraved in, have these records. How could you Forget the most important part of the story, which is you're baptizing people in the name of Jesus early, you know, and all of a sudden you don't know when he's coming, even though it's just all of these things tell you that it's being.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:07:52 And this is another reason why I don't think there was a manuscript, because if there was a real manuscript, I think you'd have a tighter story where you wouldn't have these many plot holes that are telling you that it's being written by someone in the 19th century.

John Dehlin 1:08:04 And Gerardo's messaging me privately to just drive this point home. And I'm just gonna summarize it. Lehi knows the date that Jesus is coming, and he says it in the Scriptures. Presumably he engraves it in plates. And the subsequent prophets read the prior engravings, and that's how the Book of Mormon is being written. So why is it that Lehi knows the date, but then Benjamin and Mosiah and Alma and others are like, I wonder when he's coming. I hope he's coming soon. They should know, because Lehi had already. It had already been revealed to Lehi the actual date.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:08:43 Yeah, there's just no way around it. And again, I know.

John Dehlin 1:08:45 Thanks, Gerardo.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:08:46 Yeah, it's a good point. And it's just. It's again, on ldsdiscussions.com on this overview, there's more examples. I'm not gonna go through everything just because we'd be here for hours, but I just wanted to give two slides on that because it's really important. And so more from Brent is to say the enveloping is obvious. Lehi and Nephi explicitly preached the date of Jesus birth. Benjamin and Alma speak only in generalities. Samuel, like Nephi, is explicit. But when we analyze the passages in the order they were dictated, the enveloping pattern is replaced with a linear pattern. Prophets in the earliest part of the dictation lack specific knowledge of Jesus birth date.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:09:20 However, with a Samuel Date of 5 years is given at the expiration of the allotted time. The signs appear as prophesied. In this context, the narrative explains that Father Lehi, Nephi, almost all of our fathers have testified of the coming of Christ and that the year Jesus was born was 600 years from the time that Lehigh left Jerusalem. Passages such as these paved the way for the next stage of the thematic development. What started as an editorial remark that 600 years had elapsed is transformed into a literal prophecy from the lips of Lehi, Nephi and Angel and unidentified prophets. These prophecies were not dictated until the 600 year date had firmly.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:09:54 Had been firmly established in 3 Nephi. And so it's just, again, it's showing that when you look at the order of dictation as it is, starting with Mosiah, everything actually works in a linear way. But so basically, if you read the beginning of the Book of Mormon, you read it at the end, all of this makes sense. But if you read it in the order the Book of Mormon is published, then you see the beginning is written by someone who had already written the end and knows how to effectively backdate the prophecies into the beginning.

John Dehlin 1:10:21 Did you read the actual quote where Lehi says it's 600 years?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:10:27 It's on the overview, but I don't have it on here, I don't think.

John Dehlin 1:10:29 Okay, yeah, because that would really drive the point home to actually read the verse where Lehi is saying the year, but we've driven it home. Yeah, maybe Gerardo, if he's listening, he can give us that verse and we can.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:10:44 Yeah, if he's listening, send it over. We can definitely go back to it.

John Dehlin 1:10:48 Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:10:49 And so basically it's just making the point we're making over and over again, which is to say the dictation order is established because of the fact that we can show that if you do it in that order, everything makes sense from a textual standpoint, even though that's not the order it was published or claimed to have been written in.

John Dehlin 1:11:03 And this is the whole. This is all historical criticism or biblical criticism. This is the technique that lots of scholars developed to deal with the Bible and the historicity and the accuracy of the Bible long before it was ever applied to the Book of Mormon. Jews, Jews were doing this sort of work in the 19th century or earlier.

John Dehlin 1:11:26 And okay, so. So Gerardo is saying it's first Nephi verse 19:18. And just. Just because it's fun and just so that I just think this really drives it home. First Nephi, chapter 19, verse 8 reads. And this is First Nephi 19. And behold, he cometh according to the words of the angel in 600 years from the time my father left Jerusalem. So there it is. It's actually Nephi saying it right. But he's basically saying. He's basically saying that my father, you know, it's 600 years from the date my father left Jerusalem. So that again, we're beating a dead horse, but I think that's going to just put a stake in the heart, so to speak.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:12:16 Well, yeah, I mean, again, we're just, we're trying to show that this is being written at the end and that you can show it is by, by the text itself. And so, you know, I know we are kind of, you know, this is a little bit more in the weeds than some of our first few episodes were, but it's this, I think, I honestly think it's one of the most important topics because of the fact that a lot of these things for me certainly went over my head. I never would have caught this on my own. Because of the fact that when you read these as a believer, you don't think about it.

Dictation Order and the Small Plates Problem

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:12:41 You actually think in a lot of ways you're like, this bolsters my faith more because they're making these prophecies that get fulfilled at the end because you don't know the beginning was written at the end. And so it really does read in a way that is powerful until you realize that the writer of the Book of Mormon was doing it at the end and then able to effectively retrofit and backdate their own prophecies to make it fit better. The problem is it leaves the middle hanging out to dry.

John Dehlin 1:13:06 No, it's, it's a, it's a smoking gun. It is for sure.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:13:09 And so it's another part from Metcalf which is basically to say that, and we talked about this earlier, that when Joseph Smith's writing the book, it appears Jesus's visit is a late addition as well. And so he says in the early part of Mormons abridged history, prophecies about the coming of Jesus say nothing about his resurrection advent in the Americas. Benjamin Abedon, both alma's all of whom know minute details of Jesus's life never mention that a glorified Christ will appear to the Lehigh. Not until Alma 16:20. As is clearly stated, many of the people did inquire concerning the place where the Son of God should come.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:13:41 And they were taught that he would appear unto them after his resurrection. The people's uncertainty, which Alma himself shares, implies that nothing had been taught about a promise that Christ would visit America, a promise Nephi earlier described in detail when for the first time in Mormon's abridgment, priests teach that the Nephites to the Nephites that he would appear unto them after his resurrection. Absent any reference to Nephi's prodigious vision, the people did hear with great joy and gladness, seemingly acknowledging the newness of the idea. So not only are we told that the later prophets don't know about this. But all of the people who would have also be, you know, be studying the earlier prophets, none of them knew because the crowd's all excited.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:14:18 No one's like, guys, guys, we already knew this. Why are we all excited? You know? And it just shows that Joseph Smith is kind of, you know, evolving the story as he dictates. Then all of a sudden he gets to the beginning, and because he knows it, he's just. It's almost like he's too loose in how he's throwing out the details, being a little too flashy, it. Trying to make the replacement text fit the ending really well. But then again, as I said, it leaves that middle out to dry. Because if you read that knowing that the people didn't know Jesus was coming, that's a huge red flag that tells you that the Book of Mormon, again, is not an ancient record. Because we've got all of these inconsistencies that are coming from Joseph Smith having to write the beginning at the end.

John Dehlin 1:15:01 Or here's a joke, joke alert. Or ancient Book of Mormon prophets weren't doing their daily scripture study.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:15:08 Well, yeah, but that's what it would be, right? It would be like if you're in Sunday and someone points out something from the Book of Mormon and you're like, what are you talking about? And they're like, don't you read your scriptures? It's in there. I mean, that's effectively what we're dealing with here, where you're like, either you're not. Either your prophets are not aware, and not only they're not aware, but again, we're told. And this kind of goes, again, I keep teasing future overviews, but it kind of goes to revelation in the Mormon Church as well, like the modern Mormon Church, because we have all of these prophets who are told one thing and then the next prophet's not told anything.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:15:38 And in the Book of Mormon, you would think, even if they were unaware of not reading every single one of the records, even though this is an insanely important issue, that they're constantly getting revelation from God as we're told in the Book of Mormon, yet no one's aware of this. And it just shows you again, how when you are writing something orally to back up one more step, when people talk about how Joseph Smith could not possibly have written the Book of Mormon because it's so complex, these are areas where the lack of complexity in the Book of Mormon shows that the person is not that super educated, well thought out person.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:16:15 I'm not saying, Joe, because I think Joseph was brilliant in the sense of being a storyteller and charismatic, you know, much like you see, you know, people who, you know, have talk shows on TV who are just amazing at conversing with people and in telling stories and giving narratives. But it also shows that his lack of education hurts him here because he does not tie up the loose ends. He is unaware that when he opens up, when he tries to backdate one prophecy, that all of a sudden another problem opens up on the other end. You know, it does show his limitations as an author as well.

John Dehlin 1:16:44 Yeah, that's a great point. When, when you're, when general authorities or visiting 70s or stake presidents or bishops say how to explain how well written the Book of Mormon is. These are a couple really big smoking guns that show that Joseph didn't, didn't think it all through or was scrambling. And I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna review what you just said. For those who just got lost in the words.

John Dehlin 1:17:07 Not only is the date of Jesus's arrival set at the beginning, but then forgotten by the prophets in the middle. The fact that Jesus is going to come visit the Americas is not known by the prophets in the middle, but then somehow it's magically known by the prophets at the beginning and isn't the explanation for that. And I'm sure we're going to get into this, that when Joseph originally was going to write the Book of Mormon, it was going to be less of a theological book, right? It was going to be more of a, of like a fantasy action war novel, talking about history, but less about theology and religion.

John Dehlin 1:17:51 And then Joseph. And so when he's writing the last 116 pages and then the middle section, it hasn't evolved in his mind yet into a really full theological treatise. But then somewhere between the mid and the end he's like, you know what? Why don't I have Jesus actually come to the Americas? And that's kind of how it evolves.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:18:14 I mean, again, like, it's one of those things where it's like, I think there are probably like, I think Dan Vogel, excuse me, could speculate better than I could. But for me it's like, I think it's just, there's a lot of time that changes between losing the manuscript, starting back up and then this what, like an 85 day process. You've got like a couple of months where he's dictating, dictating to the closer to the end to he's doing, he's giving revelations, he's getting a following People are talking about him. All of these things are going to change where he thinks the Book of Mormon might go.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:18:40 So I don't know if he thought at first that it would be something similar to view of the Hebrews where it would just be trying to explain the mountain builder myth. I don't know if it was him from the beginning, if he thought, you know, this is going to be 100% like a theological thing. Because we do have like. Dan Vogel points out that his parents were having issues with mixed faith marriage basically. And so his dad was a universalist and a utilitarian and his mom was a Methodist and he was trying to find a way to basically settle the religious arguments. We have all of those things working on.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:19:07 And so I think because of all of those things are all moving at the same time, Joseph's story is trying to adapt to fulfilling all of these needs. It's kind of like when you look at the New Testament, the different gospels have contradictions and they have differences because they're being written for an audience that has specific needs. And I think the Book of Mormon's needs change through the Book of Mormon process. And we, you know, and we'll go through that in a couple of years when we talk about how there are surrounding influences of Joseph Smith's time that directly impact the Book of Mormon, that tell us why it's a 19th century text and why nobody else but Joseph could have been the one to write it.

John Dehlin 1:19:42 Okay, all right, this is good. Let's continue.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:19:46 And now we're going to take a hard turn and go away from the dictation order. But now look at how the small plates themselves are a late addition to the Book of Mormon. And this is something.

John Dehlin 1:19:55 Okay, tell people what the small plates and the large plates are. Because it's always been that as someone who was raised Mormon, who read the Book of Mormon, I don't know, eight or nine times cover to cover, I was always like, why are there brass plates and small plates and large plates and a bridge? It just always seemed weird unless you think about it in terms of Joseph smith losing the 116 pages, writing the rest of it, and then having to figure out how to explain all those shenanigans.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:20:26 Right, yeah. And so basically when Joseph Smith. Well, let's just look at this real quick. So keeping in mind the dictation order that they know the end before the middle. And this is because the small plates are carefully tucked into this problem to try to make, to try to basically address why there are these discrepancies and so from a church narrative, we have both sets of plates were prepared basically concurrently. And so the Come follow me manual actually says more than 2400 years in advance, the Lord prepared to compensate for the lost pages of the Book of Mormon by creating this separate set of plates.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:20:59 And so they're basically. And this was a narrative I was taught as a member, you know, as a believing member, still a member, but not a believer. But the Book of Mormon dictation itself gives us clues that this, again, is a story that is created afterwards to solve a problem that arose earlier. And so if we go to the next slide, this is going to be a little bit more in the weeds. But this is really important because this shows again how Joseph Smith is scrambling to backfill the replacement text. Because. And this is one of the things we kind of touched on earlier. I think that one of the reasons that Joseph Smith doesn't touch the replacement text until he's completely done is because I think he's hoping he might get the replacement pages back.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:21:41 Because if he gets those. The original manuscript back, then he doesn't have to replace anything. But if he sets up. If he sets up the replacement text early in the Book of Mormon, and then all of a sudden Martin's like, you know what? Me and Lucy have reconciled and she gave me the manuscript. Then all of a sudden Joseph's double screwed because now he created a second, you know, and so I think in a lot of ways, he. He knew in his head I have to hold out hope until the last second I don't get him. Because if he gets them and he already created the second exit ramp, that's going to look bad.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:22:09 And so I really think that's the reason why he takes so long to get to it, because he has to hope that he's going to get him back Because. And again, this. This goes again to show the lack of power in both the Seer Stone and God's revelations, because Joseph Smith does not know if those pages exist still. If they're burned, if they're destroyed, he doesn't know. And so he has to hold out hope that he might get them or, you know, at least wait until the last second before he makes his move. And so.

John Dehlin 1:22:34 Wow, that's great. That's great.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:22:36 Yeah, it's really important. And there's a site, and we link to it on our overview. It's called Lectures on Doubt. And the guy that does it, he does some really amazing stuff. And I don't know, a lot of people that note of it. So if you go to ldsdescustin.com overview and I'll send it to John so you can put in the show notes. It's a really cool write up and it's way more in the weeds than this is going to be. But it just shows how when you really look at this stuff critically, you can pull a lot of clues that can give you the story that you won't get just kind of reading through the Book of Mormon on its own.

John Dehlin 1:23:07 All right, let's jump in.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:23:09 So this is from DNC10 and again, we mentioned this earlier that the Joseph Smith Papers Project believes this was likely written in April. And so I want to read this because it's really important. And it says, and now verily I say unto you that an account of those things that you have written which have gone out of your hands is engraven upon the plates of Nephi. Yea, and you remember it was said in those writings that a more particular account was given of these things upon the plates of Nephi. And now because the account which is engraven upon the plates of Nephi is more particular containing the things which in my wisdom I would bring to the knowledge of the people in this account.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:23:44 Therefore you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi down even till you come to the reign of King Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained. And behold, you shall publish it as the record of Nephi. Behold, they have only got a part or an abridgment of the account of Nephi. Behold, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel. Therefore it is wisdom in me that you should translate the first part of the engravings of Nephi and, and send forth this work. And so this is kind of confusing, but if you read D&C10 and you look at it for without the pre determined conclusion that there's a small set of plates, God's actually saying the opposite.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:24:26 What he's saying is that, and this is one of those things, if you read the Book of Mormon, you know how they kind of, they'll keep referencing like there's so many more things to say, but I only have so much room to abridge. You know, there's those like throwaways that kind of tell you like this is an abridgment. It's an abridgment. It's not everything.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:24:40 What God is saying here is we're not going to give you a Small plate, set of plates, we're going to give you the full abridgment to pull from. So what he's saying is you're going to translate the engravings on the plates of Nephi, which are like the massive plates down until you get to the reign of King Benjamin. So God knows where Joseph Smith stopped, where the manuscript stops. And then basically it says once you get there, you're going to stop. Which is also to say that this larger set goes well beyond the 116 pages because he has to stop when he gets to the point when it meshes with what he's already translated.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:25:11 And so this text, and again this is getting confusing, but this is not referencing small plates in any way. It's referencing Joseph Smith using the unabridged massive large plates to replace the text with. And again, I know it's confusing and that's why this section does get a little bit more into the weeds. But so if you go to the next slide, it kind of addresses this a little bit, but just saying nowhere does the small plates appear. And he's referencing a larger plates to be translated. And this is, you know, again I just mentioned it, but this is God telling Joseph you were working with an abridgment.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:25:48 We have so many more details for you to work from. So we're going to give you the pure source to retranslate the missing pages. And again it shows that when Joseph Smith goes to start the replacement text, he has not thought of a small plates. His right now his two sets of plates are the original plates and the abridgment plates he used for the Book of Mormon. Nothing else. I don't know if you have anything you want to jump in on that before we move on or not, but.

John Dehlin 1:26:13 Okay, so I, I, I, I'm a slow thinker, not, not the sharpest tool in the shed. So, so, so you're saying that at the time he reveals DNC10, Joseph hasn't even thought of the idea of small plates yet.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:26:30 Right.

John Dehlin 1:26:31 And what this scripture reveals is that he's still at this point working off one set of plates.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:26:38 Yeah, I mean, so effectively. Right, so the, the, the, the plates that are used to translate the Book of Mormon are an abridgment. Right, an abridgment by Mormon in Moroni. Right. And so what this revelation is saying is not that there was a second set of plates that were created, but that there is the plates that were used to create the abridgment. We're going to give you those.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:26:58 So if you have like the CliffsNotes version of a book. It would be like God saying, instead of reading the first part of the CliffsNotes, I'm just gonna give you the full book and you can read the full book for your. For your own. It's not saying, I've got another smaller one. It's actually going to a bigger one. And I think in a way that actually makes more sense for the text of the Book of Mormon, if you're gonna go that route, because then you're not trying to create this idea that God knew he was gonna lose the pages and created a second set of plates that were smaller just to.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:27:24 You know what I mean? Like, because the Church will tell you that basically, as I mentioned, the come follow the manual, that God knew this was going to happen, even though he didn't tell Joseph it was going to happen, even though he didn't have this ready right away. You know, again, if God had prepared this long in advance, why do you make Joseph wait nine months to start up again? All of those things are red flags. But this is actually, this revelation is not saying what the Church would tell you today. That it's saying it never mentions small plates, and in fact, it's telling them to go back to the larger plates, the unabridged plates, to pull the replacement material from.

John Dehlin 1:27:53 Got it, got it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:27:54 Yeah, it's confusing, but okay. It's really important. And so if we go. So this is.

John Dehlin 1:28:00 So basically there's some point in the story where small plates. The idea of a small plates has not yet been generated. I mean, obviously when Joseph first tells everyone he's got these gold plates, he's not saying there's small plates and big plates and brass plates and a bridge. It's just the plates.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:28:19 Yeah, it's just plates.

John Dehlin 1:28:20 Then all of a sudden there's this middle point where again, small plates have not. The idea for small plates have not yet really been introduced.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:28:27 Right.

John Dehlin 1:28:28 And then all of a sudden, later, now we get to the point where it gets introduced. Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:28:32 Yeah. And so now he's trying. Now he's writing the replacement text and he's trying to basically figure out how he's going to address where this replacement text comes from. And so this is from the article on Lectures on Doubt. And it says.

John Dehlin 1:28:42 So he's. Okay, so. And sorry, bear with me just one second. So. So now Joseph is like, okay, I finished. I'm done with 4th Nephi or whatever. I'm done with Moroni and, you know, Mormon and Moroni. Now I've got to go back and write the 116, replace the 116 pages. But if it was just one set of plates, I need other plates that I can translate, because the original story. Now those original plates are worthless because that's what. That's what I translated into the 116. So there needs to be additional plates in the story, or else what am I translating?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:29:24 Yeah, I mean, there has to be a separate set of plates because he can't retranslate the same plates, because according to the Revelation, he's going to be exposed by Lucy with altered text. So he has to create a second set of plates.

John Dehlin 1:29:35 And so what the Revelation in the story, and again, before Martin Harris loses the 116 pages, was there ever any suggestion that sort of a single timeline had multiple plates for the same timeline? Was that ever suggested anywhere prior to Martin losing the plates?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:29:55 So, yeah, there's nothing mentioned prior to Martin that there's a small set of plates, and even in the Book of

John Dehlin 1:29:59 Mormon, more than one set of plates for a given timeline, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:30:03 No, I don't think so. I mean, there is. We'll get to it at the end. There's a part where they say that the prophets basically have, like, a storehouse of records. And so in that regard, there are extra records in that time that are all on metal plates and highly anachronistic, but there's no mention that these records are being kept on concurrently. On two separate plates, on multiple sets of plates. Yeah. And so the reason that's important is he doesn't even do that from Mosiah to the end, because he's still hoping to get the manuscript back. And so he can't, because if he does, then all of a sudden that's another loose end, you know.

John Dehlin 1:30:37 Okay, yeah, this is making sense to me now.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:30:39 Yeah. And so he's tiptoeing here. And so this is the article on Lectures on Doubt. And it says the idea of a second, smaller set of plates doesn't appear until one first Nephi, which comes after Mosiah through Moroni and dictation order there. Nephi describes his records as an abridgment of his father's record. Later, Nephi describes the new record as not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people. He goes on to say that the larger, more complete volume he has given the name of Nephi, wherefore they are called the Plates of Nephi. This is also the first time he describes the large plates as being more secular in comparison to the small plates.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:31:14 He does not give the small plates a name here, reinforcing that the plates of Nephi, which are referenced in D and C10 are not the small plates. The secular versus spiritual nature of the plates is repeated in 1st Nephi 19. There Nephi reiterates the expectation that those plates are to be passed down from generation to generation. He also mentions the smaller plates may have otherwise purposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord, which is a coy hint that these plates were prepared specifically to account for The Future lost 116 page manuscript. And so the point here is he's not. He's actually here calling the plates of Nephi the larger sets of plates.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:31:50 So in D and C10, which we think was written before he does the replacement text, he is saying the plates of Nephi are the unabridged large thing. And so here, now he's kind of creating this secondary set of plates. And then he talks. He's basically telling the reader why they're different. And to his point, it is kind of like a coy hint where Joseph Smith is almost like I mentioned earlier, it's like he does protest too much. He's trying really hard to explain to the reader why there's going to be a difference between this and what the original text might have been. And it's a tiny bit suspicious because it is.

John Dehlin 1:32:24 It's not until he's back writing the. If your theory's right, he's hoping the 116 pages show up. They don't. Now he started over at the beginning and he's gotta figure out how to explain all this. Isn't it convenient that now in one, Nephi is where all of a sudden he's starting to explain all these different versions of the plates when he had never ever mentioned those previously?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:32:48 Yes.

John Dehlin 1:32:48 And I'm guessing that when, if we were to have ever found the 116 pages and actually read them, I'm guessing there was no mention of. Of lots of different versions of plates for the same timeline. I'm just guessing.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:33:02 Yeah, there's no way. There's no way. Just because the rest of the Book of Mormon doesn't mention it. And so.

John Dehlin 1:33:06 Exactly.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:33:07 If we go to the next slide, the next slide is kind of a tongue in cheek one. But it's just to say it's like Joseph Smith is almost like a character in the office when with that last line about, you know, the purposes might be known unto the Lord. It's almost like he's saying it in the book and then looking deadpanning to the Camera, like, to the reader, like, you know what I'm talking about. And I'm not trying to make fun, I'm just saying, like, that is such an out of place thing, which is telling you that Joseph Smith not only is scrambling to figure out how to replace the text, but he also knows he's insecure about it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:33:33 And he knows he needs to basically try to. Basically, it's not that he's apologizing to the reader, but he's trying to tell the reader as explicitly as he can why these differences are there. And it's almost like you're drawing attention to it in a way that shows that he's aware it's a problem.

John Dehlin 1:33:48 Basically, it's like a wink.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:33:50 It is.

John Dehlin 1:33:52 It reminds me of when Joseph Smith writes into the Book of Mormon a prophecy of his own awesomeness in the future. Yeah, it's like, whoa, that's so.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:34:01 It is.

John Dehlin 1:34:01 That's pretty bold.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:34:03 And that's the thing. It's like, when you know the end, you can write the beginning, but the problem is when you, when you know that. When you know the end, but you're also aware that you have to change the beginning, you know that you're. You have issues. And again, in the back of his head, he might be thinking, Lucy might have that manuscript. So I got to make sure I explain why this is different. Because if she releases it and it's different, I got to. The reader needs to know why it's different. And so he's still covering his tracks here, I think, with that fear in the back of his head that she might expose him with the manuscript.

John Dehlin 1:34:29 Got it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:34:30 And so basically this is the same article from Lectures on Doubt. And they talk about how he continues to define this as he writes the replacement text. And so they say the second set of plates is first referred to as the small plates in Jacob 1:1, but are still not described as the plates of Nephi or the Small Plates of Nephi. In fact, the first and only proper name given to them is the Plates of Jacob. It is unlikely that this could have been an error where Book of Jacob was intended, since the description specifically alludes to the physical crafting of the plates, in contrast to the singular nature of the plates of Nephi from Mosiah through Moroni, which are sometimes described in conjunction with the brass plates, but never the small plates.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:35:10 The large and small plates are nearly always differentiated from each other. From first Nephi through Words of Mormon. This pattern spawns multiple authors, including Nephi, Jacob, Jarom, Abinadom, if I say, right. And Mormon. When the text is read in Mosiah priority order, it is clear that the small plates were a late invention in the creation of the text. And so what he's saying, again, kind of like what we were saying with Brett Metcalf's work, is we see them constantly splitting up these plates until he finishes a replacement text, and then they're just an afterthought and forgotten. And that shows you that, again, he is using.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:35:42 He's developing the idea of the small plates in the small plate section because he has to, but because he had already written the rest of it, he has no chance to go back there and smooth it out, because if he does that, obviously the witnesses are going to know he's editing the text. And that's a big problem. And so he's stuck with basically trying his best to basically apologize is the wrong word, but constantly explain why there are these plates. And then all of a sudden they just. It's an afterthought.

John Dehlin 1:36:05 And let me, if I can just summarize to make sure that I understand what you're saying, and I think you've already said this probably multiple times from Mosiah to Moroni in the Book of Mormon. There's no mention of the small plates, lots of different plates, multiple versions of the same plates. Correct?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:36:26 Correct.

John Dehlin 1:36:27 That's just such a problem. That's a huge, obvious, glaring problem. It is.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:36:32 And it's one of those things, again,

John Dehlin 1:36:33 as a believer, and again, it's because he's holding out. He's holding out thinking that the 116 pages might show up. And so he has no need to manufacture this story of multiple plates until he's pretty sure that the 116 pages aren't going to show up. And then he needs to then come up with the story, and then, voila, it appears first Nephi.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:36:56 Yeah. And I would even take that a step further, and I wouldn't even say that he has no need to do it. I would say he's afraid to do it, because if he does it, he creates that second set of plates, and all of a sudden the manuscript pops up.

John Dehlin 1:37:05 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:37:05 Then all of a sudden he pops the manuscript in, and people are gonna be like, what do you. What happened to that second set of plates? So he's forced by Lucy. Just the fear of Lucy exposing him forces him to change his plans in a way that then he has to address at the end. But he can't address it until the beginning, until he writes the beginning, because of what you Said he's holding out. And so it's a big problem. And again, it's confusing. But you know when you have multiple books of the Book of Mormon that are all referencing this differentiation of plates and it's just forgotten for the rest of the book, that tells you that this is being written with that express purpose and it's being written at the end.

John Dehlin 1:37:39 Totally. Okay. Wow, that's powerful.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:37:42 And this is actually what we've been talking about a lot, this episode, which is just to say that he waited until the last second. So basically it's just saying it's a late addition which occurs only after he has to replace it. And it fits in well with the translation process and the dictation order. Just, you know, it's basically reiterating that same thing. So we don't have to go over that again, because we just did that. So we can actually go to the next slide and we'll wrap up the small plates issue, which, again, this is from the same article. And he says the most obvious impetus for Smith introducing the small plates, rather than stick to his divinely revealed plan of translating the plates of Nephi as time, the 116 pages represented an abridgment of the Plates of Nephi.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:38:18 By promising the source material in place of the abridgment, Smith had unwittingly signed up to produce a manuscript much larger and more comprehensive than the original one. A second, smaller volume would be a very attractive alternative. This theory elegantly explains the Book of Mormon's emphasis on the size difference between the two sets of plates, one being smaller, one being larger. It can also explain the supposed difference in content. As mentioned before, the small plates are self described as less interested in history and more interested in spiritual matters. This description has long puzzled readers of the Book of Mormon, who often note that both sections of the Book of Mormon are a blend of history and theological discourse.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:38:52 The supposed difference in tone is difficult to detect. However, this explanation allows Smith to breeze through hundreds of years of history once the origin story of the Nephites and Lamanites is adequately explained. And this is really important because again, it shows that D&C 10 is telling him, you are not going to use the abridgment, you're going to use the full source to fill in the details. And then he gets to it and it's a much shorter section. And so then all of a sudden it's like, well, he can't say, I'm using the main source that DNC told him to, or DNC10 told him to. Because if he says that, then he can't say it's only supposed to focus on spiritual matters.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:39:26 Because why would it focus on spiritual matters when you're using the source that was the source for the abridgment? You know, I mean, like, so he has to then create a small set of plates to explain why it's shorter and less focused on history. Because if he uses a set of plates that DNC10 tells him to, that's going to have more history than the original text would have had.

John Dehlin 1:39:43 Yeah, that's powerful.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:39:44 It's a big deal. And it's. Again, it's one of those things that gives you a window into how Joseph Smith is not just creating the Book of Mormon, but dealing with situations where he loses control. And how. Again, we talked about this earlier, but when we talk about how Joseph Smith was too unlearned to create the Book of Mormon, he was able to create the Book of Mormon, but he did leave clues because of the fact that he was not able to do this in a way that most authors would. He was forced to. To constantly make changes. And what, you know, it is like you have a grand scheme.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:40:12 Like in a movie, they've got this grand scheme, and then all of a sudden it's an action movie. And then all of a sudden something goes wrong. And once that thing goes wrong, you start changing your plan. All of a sudden there's the mad scramble in the movie. Well, that's basically what happens here. One thing goes wrong for Joseph Smith, which is a big one, and then he loses the manuscript, and everything he had planned has to change. And then once it changes, he has to go back to the start and account for it. And by doing so, he's leaving his fingerprints everywhere.

John Dehlin 1:40:35 Yeah, all right, that's. That's brilliant.

Details Revealing Joseph Smith's Composition Process

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:40:38 And then, you know, so now we're kind of out of the. The issue of the actual dictation process. But this is some quick notes on some stuff that Gerald and Sandra Tanner had done a long time ago. And it's basically that the replacement text of the Book of Mormon is considered like the black hole of the Book of Mormon, because what happens is Joseph Smith is afraid that Lucy Harris might have the original text because he's afraid she might have to text. He has to be incredibly vague and careful in whatever he puts in the replacement text because if he puts specific information that is contradicted, she could expose him. And so he has to be very careful not putting anything in there that he might not remember correctly. And this leads him to be intentionally vague for the entire replacement text of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin 1:41:24 So I'm guessing you have examples of the vagueness.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:41:26 Yeah, so we're just a few slides going through this and then we'll.

John Dehlin 1:41:29 Okay, so just to be clear, you're saying that from Nephi, first Nephi to before Mosiah, Joseph's super vague about certain things and you're going to give us examples. Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:41:40 And the Tanners do such a good job here. So just as with the small plates, you can see Joseph Smith is constantly giving the reader excuses as to why there's difference with the replacement text. And so Jacob writes that he should write upon these plates a few of the things which I consider to be most precious, that I should not touch, save it, were lightly concerning the history of this people, which are called the people of Nephi. He said that the history of his people should be engraven upon his other plates. And so this is what we're talking about in the last section where Jacob is really where the small plates story kind of really takes hold.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:42:08 And again, just to point out, that seems odd for a record of their people, but it makes sense once you realize that Joseph Smith needs to accomplish telling the reader why the stories are not going to be the same because of the fact that he's got this fear over his head that Lucy could release the original text, which would have a much different history and a much different story than what he's going to release.

John Dehlin 1:42:27 So tell me if I, if I'm understanding this right. So if you look at post Mosiah Book of Mormon, he's getting into like commanders in the battle and where the battles are happening and how many people are fighting and movements of troops is just an example of like this level of detail. Well, that sort of, that level of detail you're saying doesn't appear prior to Mosiah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:42:53 Well, that level of detail is even a few levels of detail from where we're going to go because he doesn't even. He's. He's afraid in the replacement text to name the kings. I mean, we're not even talking like small details. We're talking like he is really trying hard not to name anyone or like

John Dehlin 1:43:07 who the leaders are, who the government leaders are.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:43:09 So and so we'll go through some of those examples because again, okay, there's more. Okay, there's more on the LDS discussion site and then there's even more on the Tanner's article. But so this is the lack of names. So this is from the Tanner's article, and it says only 11 people are named in the first book of Nephi, and no additional names are given at all in Second Nephi. Yet Joseph names ten Old Testament characters by name and even prophetically speaks of Jesus some 600 years before his birth and claims that he knew the name of the apostle of the Lamb of John. So he can't name any of the characters that are with the people that they're writing the records for, but he can prophesy not just of the specific year of Jesus, but of the Lamb, that the apostle of the Lamb was John.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:43:47 And those are details that tell you that Joseph Smith is working from being very careful with the contemporary stuff, but he's throwing out a lot of Old Testament names because those can't be contradicted because those are already established in the Bible.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:44:00 Then it says Joseph goes to great lengths to avoid giving out names of extended family members, likely because he couldn't remember them and knew that those could easily be exposed. And so in Second Nephi, you have my father called the children of Laman, his sons and his daughters, and said unto them, behold, my sons and my daughters of my firstborn. And after my father had made under speaking, he caused the sons and daughters of Lemuel to be brought before him, he spake unto them, saying, behold, my sons and my daughters, who are the sons and the daughters of my second son. So, like, look at that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:44:28 It's almost like you're writing a book and you don't have the names of the characters. And like, so you can't even say, like, the name of your second son. Like, it'd be one thing to be like, they're the sons and daughters of so and so. But he's even, even then, he can't say the name. And so you have these long stretches of history with no new names, because he only remembers certain names that he knows are going to line up, and the rest of them he's just like, I can't, because I don't want to be wrong.

John Dehlin 1:44:48 So he's afraid to get specific. He doesn't know any of the immediate things that should be really obviously known. And yet he knows things in the future because they were written in the later part of the book that he shouldn't know at all.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:45:01 Yeah. And the things he's knowing about in the future are things that are established in the Bible. So he can't contradict himself there because he's working off of another, obviously another text altogether.

John Dehlin 1:45:09 Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:45:10 And so this is more from the Tanners. We then get just two new names in the book of Jacob and two more new names in the book of Jarom. So at this point they state that 238 years have passed, which means the Book of Mormon gives you only four new names in a 230 year window of history. I mean, that's just like there's only a thousand.

John Dehlin 1:45:30 So that's basically a quarter of the timeline in the book.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:45:34 And so they're giving you all of this filler in these pages and they're intentionally leaving out the details because again, four new names. You know, in a realistic standpoint, you're talking, how many generations is that? And you get four names.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:45:49 And then this is where I stumble with the king. So it says, now Nephi began to be old, and he saw that he must soon die. Wherefore he anointed a man to be a king and a ruler over his people. Now according to the reign of reigns of the kings. Later in the chapter, Jacob says the people of Nephi under the reign of the second king began to grow hard in their hearts. And again, no new names are given of the kings until we come out of the 116 pages. And then Joseph immediately starts naming the kings. You got Mosiah and Benjamin. And so again, this is showing that he is calling all of the kings Nephi and then not saying the name.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:46:21 And all of a sudden he gets out of this replacement text and all of a sudden he's naming just like normal, there's no problem. And it tells you the insecurity that he has because he doesn't have the text to pull the names from.

John Dehlin 1:46:33 Wow.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:46:34 To me, it's a pretty simple thing. And again, this is way worse when you read. Read it in more detail. I tried just to pick a few examples for our presentation, but if you go to LDS discussions, you know, 116 pages, you'll see it. And then the Tanners talk about when they come out of the black hole. So while Joseph goes to great lengths not to name any new characters, locations and events in the replacement text, the moment he exits this spot, the names start kicking off. And so they say, for example, just as we come out of the black hole, we find this reference in Mosiah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:47:03 1:1 King Benjamin had three sons and he called their names Mosiah and Hilliram and Helaman. So basically earlier, remember we were talking about, he just kept saying my sons and daughters and my second son here the moment you get into Mosiah, because the belief is that Mosiah may have been partially written before Martin left, but that Martin would have only taken up to Mosiah. And so immediately you have names. And so.

John Dehlin 1:47:23 So he couldn't name Laman and Lemuel's children.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:47:27 Right.

John Dehlin 1:47:28 But he does refer to them by saying they're children. And then all of a sudden, he's able to name Mosiah or Benjamin's children, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:47:36 Yeah. And again, we don't want to get off too much. But, you know, one of the things that you hear a lot about the Book of Mormon being so incredible is they'll say, how could Joseph Smith had so many people named in the Book of Mormon without contradicting himself? And the reason is because we'll get to it more later. But the Book of Mormon is a linear timeline, right? So most of the names that are used, you use them, and then that time passes and you never have to go back to them. And the replacement text tells you that. Because the replacement text tells you that all of those names that were throwaway names that Joseph uses in the rest of the book, in the original 116 pages, whatever names he used, he knew he couldn't remember them.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:48:08 And so when you say, oh, my goodness, there's like 200 names all in the Book of Mormon, well, in this case, it gives you a really good clue as to the reason why there's a lot of names. Because he's throwing out names here and there of the sons and daughters and, well, mostly the sons and the kings and all this. And then the replacement text, he's like, just, there's nothing. And it tells you, again, the insecurity that he has when he's writing this text. And it also lines up with the dictation order that Brett Metcalf lined up so well.

John Dehlin 1:48:33 Yeah. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:48:35 And so I think, where are we now? We're okay. So now this one's a really cool one because this is from a Book of Mormon apologists, and the Tanners include it in their article. So, on the next slide, this is a Book of Mormon apologist, J.N. washburn, and he talks about the last 19 verses of Omni, which is. The last 19 verses provide a different kind of study altogether. They constitute a unit quite unlike anything else in the Book of Mormon. These last 19 verses give the account of the affairs of the Nephite people between the approximate dates, 175 and 124 BC. Few paragraphs go together chronologically.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:49:09 We have now seen that at least seven important items of information, some of them essential, are first brought to our attention in the last 19 verses. This, however, does not exhaust the possibilities of this interesting little chapter. Not only are a number of prominent men first named here, not only are we first informed of movements of utmost significance, not only are three are the three peoples of the Book of Mormon brought together, not only is there vital material concerning records presented here, not only are other valuable matters divulged, but there are also numerous details of vast interest to be found within these three pages. And it must be readily seen that these 19 verses are unusual.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:49:46 Is it not surprising that so large a number of unrelated fragments are thrown together in this small space? Nowhere else in the entire book is such diverse material found in so crowded a setup. And so this right here is from an apologist who's basically saying, it is really weird that right when Joseph Smith is about to get out of this section, he's just throwing all sorts of stuff together, almost like he's trying to basically bridge the gap of all of these different ideas. And it just shows that, you know, again, when you look at the Book of Mormon dictation process, you're going, you know, starting with first Nephi and you're getting to Mosiah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:50:25 And this would tell you that by the time he gets to this part, he feels like he is past anything that he's going to get called out for if Lucy Harris comes. And then all of a sudden he realizes, I'm just going to throw everything I need to throw at to try to tie this into where I started back up with in Mosiah.

John Dehlin 1:50:40 So, but you're saying that by the time he writes Omni, and where does Omni appear in the sequence in the Book of Mormon?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:50:45 Well, it's, it's so after Jacob.

John Dehlin 1:50:47 Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:50:48 It's, it's, it's. So it would go Jerem, Omni, Words of Mormon and the Mosiah. So basically he's, you know, and we talked about. There's not a lot of words in these chapters where we're talking about the wherefore, therefore. So this is right before Words of Mormon. And then it's going to jump into where the text picks back up with where it, where it left off.

John Dehlin 1:51:03 Mosiah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:51:04 Yeah. So it's going to be like two, two books before Mosiah, but, you know, short book, so we're not, you know, it's pretty close in time.

John Dehlin 1:51:10 So basically. So basically, Joseph knows now that in the chronology. Here's the list. Yeah, Joseph knows. Okay. Yeah. So it's right at the very end. He knows that he's out of the woods in terms of fearing. Yeah. Is it suspicious that once we know that Joseph feels like he's out of the woods in terms of fearing to share details that could also appear in the 116 pages, there's this explosion of specificity that happens, which could be easily explained as a writing device of trying to bridge and fill in details and bridge the vague, unspecific. First several replacement texts. Replacement of, you know, books to what was the 116 pages to then go ahead and continue and, and then plop down the. The books that got written earlier. But, but, but chronologically are supposed to appear later.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:52:18 Yeah, I mean, it's just, it just shows that once he gets to a point where he feels comfortable enough that he has passed contradicting himself for the, the things, he's just going to throw all of the stuff in a really short window because he needs to effectively get the loose ends tied up between the replacement text and Mosiah. And so, and I don't know for sure when this apologist wrote this because this article from the Tanners is from a long time ago. It's pretty possible that this was written before the Mosiah priority was really established by Brent Metcalfe. So it's even more fun.

John Dehlin 1:52:47 It's kind of funny.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:52:48 Yeah. To think that this is noticed. And I would have to wonder what would be the response if you notice this and then realize that this is part of the replacement text, the end of the replacement text. Because then all of a sudden it might set off those alarm bells of like, oh, now that he realizes he's safe, he's just going to throw all the details out because now he can do it. Maybe it's with new names, new directions, but he's just throwing all sorts of stuff out. Whereas we talked about in a 238 year window, he gives no names, you know, no kings. All of a sudden here he's just, you know, they talk about just detail after detail and that's a red flag that tells you the author of the Book of Mormon at this point is done being careful because they're past the point of being potentially exposed and they're just going full out.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:53:26 Yeah, it's a big deal. I think that's funny. So that takes us pretty much to the end of this part. Now we'll get to some apologetics. The apologetics on the last 116 pages are a little goofy because there are not. This topic is not covered as much as other ones. But Matt Roper had written an article I had used on the website. It was one of the few ones I could find that really dove into it. And he just says, if the plot against the prophet had succeeded, it conceivably had undermined the faith of some of Joseph's closest supporters who help with whose help and devotion were crucial in the success of early Mormonism.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:53:59 Early Mormons already faced an uphill battle. The prophets enemies would hardly have needed to produce the original manuscript to harden the hearts and hinder the work from progressing. All they would have had to have done was to print an altered version. After that, the manuscript might have been destroyed or lost, but the effect would have been the same. They would have claimed the corrupted version was the earlier one. Which is effectively saying what I said earlier. Like if you really believe that Lucy Smith had her whole goal was to produce an altered text, she would have done it anyway. So yeah, I don't.

John Dehlin 1:54:26 And I just, yeah, that feels like motivated reasoning. You're almost creating a conspiracy to justify something that makes no sense. Because what would have led objectively to less people doubting and questioning it clearly would have been Joseph reproducing the text identically and then showing Lucy's changes to be a fraud. And that's, that's what we've already discussed. I mean, the south park would have never needed to do that episode. Like if God could see 2000 years ahead, God would have saw the south park episode and how many people that alone took out of the church. Right. Those people matter too.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:55:06 It's one of those things where it's like again, you know, and we have this ongoing theme with a lot of these historical issues and with the scriptures. Well, what kind of. Some people, I mean, I refer to it too, like this trickster God, like God allows Joseph Smith to be tricked constantly or to be proven wrong constantly, whether it's the book of Abraham or talking about where the people of the Americas came from. All of these things that he, you know, the revelation saying that the Lamanites are at the borders of Missouri, even though those people have nothing to do with Book of Mormon times.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:55:33 And so all of these times God is willing to let Joseph Smith be proven a fraud, except in this one time where Joseph Smith is in control of the revelation and then all of a sudden his excuses, he will not allow his prophet to fall. But then on the other ones he does. And so it's just to your point, it's like you're creating, you know, you have a solution in search of a problem. And in this case it's looking for a problem that never even materialized. So it would have been more, maybe a little bit more reliable if Lucy had come out at the end and said, I have the original manuscript.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:56:04 Aha. I got you. And Joseph's like, sucker. I did. But none of that ever happens. So again, it just shows you that God and Joseph, neither of them knew what happened to the manuscript. And so the whole time they're tiptoeing.

John Dehlin 1:56:16 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:56:17 With this problem in mind. And it never happened.

John Dehlin 1:56:20 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:56:20 So, yeah, it's a big issue. And yeah, that's a great point.

John Dehlin 1:56:24 Why didn't. If Lucy ended up never. We never really hear from Lucy again about the manuscripts.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:56:32 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:56:32 Then Joseph could have just replicated them and we would have been fine.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:56:37 Yeah, I mean, like I said, this was a win win situation for him. And you know, and so, yeah, we covered this earlier and it's basically the same thing we had. You know, if he had translated the text correctly, he would have been proven a prophet. If Lucy had altered it, it would have been obvious because there's, you know, it was on full scale paper. It's very tight. We showed a picture of the manuscript in the last episode. It's tightly written together. It'll be very difficult. And to your point, like we had mentioned the Charles Anthon visit, how Joseph kind of altered the story and wrote in a line about.

John Dehlin 1:57:04 It was obvious. It was super.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:57:05 It's really obvious because the ink is different, the writing is. All of it's different.

John Dehlin 1:57:08 It's in the margins. It's like between words.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:57:11 Yeah. And so the only way they could have done it would have been to completely recreate the manuscript. But then at that point they could do it anyways. And so the final thing, as we've talked about before, but God had a lot of different tools at his disposal to deal with this. He could have had an angel go take the manuscript as he did the plates. If an angel can grab the physical gold plates and the angel should be able to get the manuscript and bring it back to Joseph. They could have struck Lucy Harris dumb, as we see in the Book of Mormon in the Bible, where all of a sudden they're struck dumb and they can't. Or they could have shown Joseph where they were in the stone, which he claimed to be able to see any lost object or what happened to him. And none of those things happen.

John Dehlin 1:57:44 You know, he could have sent an angel with the flaming sword to Lucy, threatening Lucy that if she mess with the plans or doesn't give those 116 pages back, she would be Destroyed. Where was the angel with the flaming sword?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:57:58 And that's the thing. Like, you know, where's an angel with

John Dehlin 1:58:01 the flaming sword when you need it?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:58:03 Exactly. And that's the thing. Like, you know, I'd done a thing on Twitter a while back and people were really offended cause I said things that God sent an angel with a flaming sword for Joseph Smith's sex life. Things that the angel didn't. The lost manuscript. Racism in the church.

John Dehlin 1:58:15 Exactly.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:58:16 Book of Abraham being wrong. And it's just again, you don't want

John Dehlin 1:58:18 to make fun of LGBT suicides, Right? Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:58:21 And I'm not trying to make fun of it. I'm just saying again, why is it that these things only happen when they either benefit bolster Joseph Smith? And that tells you why? Because Joseph's the one doing it.

John Dehlin 1:58:31 Why didn't the angel with the flaming sword appear the third time that Martin asked Joseph for the manuscript and said Martin cut out the asking for the or I'm going to kill you. That would have been a great thing. It just would have saved all this problem. Right?

Evaluating the Apologetic Defense of the Replacement Text

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:58:46 It would have. And again, I don't want to go backwards too much, but the whole thing in the come following Emmanuel saying 2400 years earlier, God knew and prepared the second set of plates because he knew.

John Dehlin 1:58:54 Oh my gosh.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:58:55 The contemporary ones have no mention that they knew. And again, it tells you how much of the history of the Church is backfitted into these. These stories. But anyways, we'll keep going on this apologetic stuff. So Roper actually responds to the Tanner's criticisms about the timeline of Jesus. And so he says the Tanner's interpretation of this passage is not the only, nor even the most reasonable explanation of it. As I see it, one may reach several different conclusions depending on how one interprets the references to Christ's coming in verses 24 through 26. Here I will suggest four possible interpretations. Alma's reference to Christ's coming could refer to Christ's birth, Christ's atonement, Christ's post resurrection appearance of the Nephites in the new world, or Christ's general coming, including all aspects of his life and mission in the meridian of time.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:59:40 His birth, life, teachings, suffering, death and resurrection, culminating for the Nephites in his appearance to the I'm not sure. I think I was talking about shortly after he rose appearance to them shortly after he rose from the dead. So basically what Roper is saying is that the Tanner's criticism about knowing about Jesus ahead of time and the specificity early versus late it really doesn't matter, because if you redefine what they meant in the prophecy, then it can mean anything. He's literally saying in number four. It could not just mean his birth or his death. It could mean when his message got across the world, when, you know, when the resurrection, when his teachings reach.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:00:16 I mean, it really just waters this down to nothing. And it creates, again, more problems than it answers. And that's one of the problems that in these overview projects, I want to continue to highlight these apologetics. When they think they're answering one thing, they're creating problems on another end that have to be addressed at the same time.

John Dehlin 2:00:33 This feels like special pleading.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:00:35 It is.

John Dehlin 2:00:35 And motivated reasoning. It's just. It's like, okay, when Joseph said translate, what he meant was reveal. You know what I mean? It's not a translation, it's a revelation. Like, when do words get to just mean what they say?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:00:51 Yes. I mean, it's just. It's the same stuff you're gonna see at the Book of Abraham when they're like, well, when it says, written by his own hand, a pump of papyri. It could be that it's copies of copies of copies. It's like, no, that's not what he said. Because he also writes that Abraham's personal signature is on the facsimile. But again, this is what happens when you redefine the words at face value. And so one of the things I always try to say with the overview is I take the evidence at face value. I do not take it and redefine it. Because when you do that, when you redefine words, when you redefine the events as they happened, then you're redefining them with a need for your community.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:01:21 But in this case, you can only take what Joseph Smith writes at face value, because Joseph's not here to say, no, no, no, I totally did not mean I was translating. I meant that I. You know what I mean? Like, go back in time and ask Joseph Smith these apologetics, and he would laugh at you. There's no way, Joseph Smith, if you could time travel and say, here's what the church in 2022 is saying you were actually doing, he'd be like, no, no, no, that is not what I'm doing. I am. I got this straight from God. This is the history of the Americas. Because that's what he portrayed outside of the Book of Mormon as well. I mean, it's just. It's. It's pretty simple. Unless you're trying to redefine Things to fit to solve a problem.

John Dehlin 2:01:55 Yeah, absolutely.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:01:57 And so this is just to say why the Tanners and Brett Metcalf got this right. And it's just to say, you know, the. The verse that he's pointing to, it says, and now we only wait to hear the joyful news declared unto us by the mouth of angels of his coming. For the time cometh, we know not how soon would to God that it might be in my day, but let it be sooner or later in it I will rejoice.

John Dehlin 2:02:18 So that's Alma 13:25, where Alma's speaking very vaguely about the coming of Christ.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:02:25 Yes. And so that's why the Tanners and Brett Metcalf both point out that because those prophecies were given at the beginning of the book, there's no way they would say this. And Roper is saying, well, maybe he wasn't talking about Christ coming, but his teachings. And so what I'm saying is the Tanners of Metcalf have it right, because Nephi gives a very specific promise of the coming. And yet Alma here says, we know not how soon, no matter how you want to lay it out. He would know by basic math how much time is left in that prophecy. And that is the point that the Tanners of Metcalf is making is just, how does Nephi give such a specific number?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:02:57 And then the middle of the story, once you get out of that replacement text, all of a sudden, they just completely forget that it was ever said, because it wasn't said, because it wasn't said before that section. And so the reason they don't know is because they were never told. And it's really simple. When you look at the text in the order of production.

John Dehlin 2:03:15 Yeah. Yeah. It's just like so much with Mormon truth claims. Things are so confusing, or they require such incredible back bends and contortions and distortions, or once you know the full history, everything makes sense, Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:03:34 Yeah, that's just it. Once you. And that's why I always talk about this as a puzzle, because once you start putting these pieces together and they fit naturally, when you look at it at face value, it's actually pretty satisfying because they do fit, and it makes so much sense. But at the same time, if you look at the apologetics, they're just jamming a square, you know, a square peg in a circle hole. And when you do that, you create damage elsewhere that they just walk away from because they feel like they solve that one problem and they're okay. And that, to me, is, again, where Apologetics.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:04:00 And we're going to hammer this on every overview project because it really shows that apologetics, not necessarily that the people writing them are intentionally trying to lie to you, but just that the interest is in giving plausibility to that one point and not even considering the. The damage it makes to another truth claim of the Church.

John Dehlin 2:04:17 Yeah, yep. Yeah, it's powerful.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:04:20 So this is another area where Roper continues to kind of reinterpret the Book of Mormon to make this fit. And so he says, in responding to the Tanners, and this is actually from our overview project, so this is, I guess, me. But in responding to the Tanners and Metcalfe's claim that this verse poses a serious problem for the Book of Mormon. John Twentness has argued that Alma and perhaps other Book of Mormon prophets in Mosiah through Moroni may have been unfamiliar with the prophecies on the small plates of Nephi. The Tanners argue that this explanation is unreasonable because Alma had received all of the plates from Mosiah before becoming Chief Judge and should therefore have been familiar with their contents, including the 600 year prophecy.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:04:55 The Tanner's objections dissolve when we recall that Alma had a voluminous volume. I don't know, I say it voluminous library of scriptural records far beyond anything we have today. Not merely a few books. In addition to the brass plates, the account of Ether and the voluminous record of the Nephite history on the large plates, Alma also would have had the record of. I don't know how to say it, the Zenith Zenophyte spent a long time on that one colony. The record kept by Alma as he. Oh, Helam, Helaman, Helam, from which Mormon made pan of his abridgment of the Book of Mosiah. I feel like there's some typos there, but anyways, and perhaps other records as well, including the small plates.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:05:34 This would be a fairly imposing corpus to read, much less to master and remember. Sorry, this is from Roper, but. So what he's saying is that the Tanners and the Metcalfe are claiming this is a problem, but they're not understanding how many records they had. It's like saying. He's like saying, basically, I have a whole. He has a whole, like, cave full of bookshelves. And you're upset that he doesn't know this one prophecy, but it probably got lost in the shuffle. And so what he's doing is he's reinterpreting the Book of Mormon to basically say that that Prophecy is so insignificant that they would forget about it after those first few books.

John Dehlin 2:06:05 Well, he's saying that there's so many books to read, it would have been easy to miss.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:06:11 It would have been, except for the fact that if you read the Book of Mormon, they are so aware of this prophecy in the early books that it's not something that's written in a book and then put on a bookshelf. This is something that is followed very closely through the replacement text. And so I guess his point is basically saying it gets lost in the shuffle. My point would be to say, how does something get lost in the shuffle when it's such an important part? This is not, you know. Well, actually, let's go to the next slide, if you're okay with that.

John Dehlin 2:06:36 Well, I don't know. What's that?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:06:40 So I was just gonna say so every time I see things like this, it reminds me of the scene from Office Space. And in Office Space, if you haven't seen it, they create this scheme to steal money from their boss. And it goes awry because they make a miscalculation. And if you play the clip, it just. This reminds me this. Every time when I hear this, I must have put a decimal point in the wrong place or something. Shit. I always do that. I always mess up some mundane detail. Oh, well, this is not a mundane detail, Michael. Hey, so again, I realize that's kind of, you know, kind of like here, but what's.

John Dehlin 2:07:11 What's a bigger deal than the date of the coming of the Messiah, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:07:15 Exactly. I mean, we're not talking about, like, saying, how did they forget that such and such king might have died in a certain year? Or how do they forget that they were in some city or something? This is like the overreaching.

John Dehlin 2:07:26 When's Jesus coming?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:07:28 Yeah. This is the biggest deal in the Book of Mormon. And so to say it got lost.

John Dehlin 2:07:31 It's the biggest deal in all scripture, like, all of the Old Testament is like, we're waiting for the Messiah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:07:37 Yep.

John Dehlin 2:07:37 And then the Messiah comes supposedly in the New Testament, and then all of a sudden, it's like, when is he coming again? Like, that is the question of all Judeo Christian scriptures. Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:07:48 Yeah. And it's just. And then, you know, again, if you're talking about having this massive corpus of records, the idea that this massively important prophecy would not make its way into other records, again, is they're trying to imply that it's on this one small page of this one small plate of this one small book in this Gigantic cave. And it's just. You're redefining the importance of that prophecy in the Book of Mormon, if you want to do that. I just. That's why I just. I. Every time I hear that, I always laugh because it's like, that's not. This is not a small detail. It's not a mundane detail. This is a huge problem, and it tracks perfectly if you look at the dictation order.

John Dehlin 2:08:23 It's also a problem that he knew the date, because doesn't Jesus specifically state, no man knoweth the day or the hour where I come?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:08:31 Yeah. Although I don't. Is that for the resurrection or is that for. But you're right, because. Yeah, because that would be voiced.

John Dehlin 2:08:36 Oh, I guess you're right. That would be for the second coming.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:08:38 Yeah.

John Dehlin 2:08:39 Not for the first, but either way,

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:08:40 I mean, it kind of applies because it would be. You know, the whole idea is that they know exactly when he's gonna come to the Americas, and it's just. And they know his name. All of these things are. We'll get into some of that stuff

John Dehlin 2:08:50 more in future ones. Why didn't the actual direct descendants of alleged descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, you know, David, Solomon, they are literally on the ground in the Holy Land, literal Jesus's ancestors. They don't get to know Jesus's name. They don't get to know when Jesus is coming. Why. Why are the Nephites privileged? And then when you add to that the fact that North American Native Americans didn't even have the ability to write, didn't have a written language, let alone. There's no evidence that they ever wrote anything on plates or had the ability to make plates at that level during the time period of the Book of Mormon? It's swamping. It's overwhelming evidence that this is just silliness.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:09:39 And again, you know, not to beat the dead horse from our last couple episodes about the gold plates, but if you want to use the peer review tablets to look at how many plates you would need just for the Book of Mormon, you would need a cave just for the Book of Mormon plates. So to then say there's all these other, you know, corpus of records, it just. When you talk about anachronistic metal plates with records, you're just in. You're in another area where those problems just keep stacking on each other. If you really want to go that route, it doesn't work.

John Dehlin 2:10:02 And why haven't any explorers in Central North, Central or South America found additional plates that are written in reformed Egyptian that were in some cave somewhere. Because where did all those plates go? Where did all the other unabridged plates go?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:10:17 Yeah, I mean, and that's the whole problem with it. You know, people will say, oh, you know, they haven't, they haven't looked in the right spot yet. But again, it's one of those things where at some point, if you want to make these claims that there's just so many records, they got lost in the shuffle. Then it's like, to your point where, where's everything else? And why is there no references to these other plates? They only make references to the brass plates that they took with them and the plates of Nephi, and then later on this set of plates of Jacob,

John Dehlin 2:10:40 there's just so many problems where when you look at it in context, you just can't explain it all away.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:10:46 Yeah. And that's just it. And so now we end how we began. Can we go back one page really quick?

John Dehlin 2:10:53 Oh, sure, sure, sure.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:10:54 Because I want to just go this really quick.

John Dehlin 2:10:56 So basically we missed it. Wait, we missed a slide.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:10:58 We did that one.

John Dehlin 2:11:00 Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:11:01 So in Roper's response about the 116 pages, he talks about how if you look at the similarities between the small plates and the large plates, you'll actually see that the small plates were indeed known to the, to the people after the replacement text and not an afterthought by Joseph to retrofill in. And one of the examples he gives, I think is actually perfect because in first Nephi it says the compass which had been prepared of the Lord. Then in second Nephi it says, the ball or compass which was prepared for my father by the hand of the Lord. And then we get to Alma, it says, and now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning this thing which our fathers call a ball or director, or our fathers called it Liahona, which is being interpreted a compass.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:11:39 And the Lord prepared it. And it just shows because once he's out of the replacement text, it's a lot more specific. Whereas when he's in the replacement text, he's being very careful and just kind of, you know, calling it a ball or a compass.

John Dehlin 2:11:50 And so is his basic argument there that, see, there's an object that has continuity all the way through. And he's saying that's what he's trying to say.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:11:57 And it's just his. I think it's like nine pages of examples to basically say, if I cherry pick these, you could see that the large plate authors were familiar with the small plates. And my point is one in this one example, you could see what a difference there is in the description later. But more importantly, if you have the same author for the beginning of the book as the end, there's going to be a lot of similarities. It's not, you know, it's kind of like with anachronisms. One anachronism tells you it's out of place even if you had a bunch of hits. And in this case you're going to have a lot of similarities because it's 273,000 word in the book.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:12:30 And I'm just pointing out that when he makes these claims, it's like, well, you know, look at how much this is his example and look how much more specific it is once he's out of what we call the, you know, what the Tanners call the black hole. And so, you know, again, we don't spend too much time there. I just, I thought that was a good example to show that he's trying to say they're exactly the same. And I would just say it's not because he's naming it the Liahona. Later he's giving us so fascinating.

John Dehlin 2:12:50 I did not realize that the word Liahona wasn't used until Alma.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:12:56 Yeah, I mean, I think that's the case because I pause it because this is example. I don't think it is.

John Dehlin 2:13:00 I just googled it. The only place in the Book of Mormon where the word Liahona is used is in the Book of Alma.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:13:06 Yeah,

John Dehlin 2:13:08 but I imagine Joseph would have remembered the word Liahona.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:13:13 Yeah. The only thing I could think of is maybe because the Liahona was only mentioned briefly and maybe by the time he gets back to the small plates and he's dictating, he kind of forgets what he called it. And so he just keeps it vague in that regard because, you know, it's like. The thing is, I do believe Joseph would reference back to his, to what they were working on, but I don't believe he would be able to know like where to reference. Like, I think he would probably look at where he left off and then know where to pick back up. But I don't think he was going back a long way to look for one word because that'd be really difficult with the manuscript that as we saw it. So.

John Dehlin 2:13:38 That's so fast.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:13:39 Yeah. Anyways, it's just, it's a quick reference and then. So now we're kind of at the end of this one.

Final Analysis and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin 2:13:43 And as we began with this.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:13:44 Yes, we end as we began. So little Chiasmus here for you. But just basically, once Joseph lost control, he became powerless to locate the manuscript. God was able to physically remove the plates and the spectacles, but apparently was unable to tell Joseph where the manuscript was, what happened to it, or just to have an angel retrieve it for him. And then the small plates, as we talked about, was just a late invention that did not happen until after he had finished the Book of Mormon. And this is really important when you look at DNC10, which is actually telling him to translate or, you know, take off of the unabridged history as a smaller set.

John Dehlin 2:14:20 The plates of Nephi.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:14:21 Yeah, yeah, the plates of Nephi. And then in the replacement text, we can see the fingerprints everywhere that Joseph Smith is trying to be so intentionally vague so that if the replacement or if the original manuscript were to come back up, Lucy would not be able to expose him, because at least, even though the story would be different, he wouldn't have names and places in there that would be directly contradicted by the text that Lucy Harris might still hold.

John Dehlin 2:14:43 Yeah. Wow. And. And again, any one of these items might be able to be explained in isolation.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:14:51 Yeah.

John Dehlin 2:14:51 But when you lay it out in the timeline and you get the understanding of what was going on with, with Lucy and Martin and Joseph, all of a sudden everything makes perfect sense. And it's way more plausible than. Than the apologetic narrative, which is true about all of Mormon history.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:15:10 It is. But I mean, like, for me, the 116 pages are really important because when you take those three things together, it really shows you how Joseph Smith is dictating the Book of Mormon, how he's adjusting to situations where he loses control. And it shows you that the revelations from God lose power just as Joseph's stone would lose power. And those things are really important because when you read the Book of Mormon from start to finish, you don't realize the dictation order is off. And so you don't pick up on those clues. But once you see it, then all of a sudden you get this perfect window into Joseph's both his insecurities and the replacement text, as well as the methods he was using to create the Book of Mormon.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:15:47 And I think the event of losing the manuscript is a really important one to the church. But I think the replacement text is so important to being able to look at the text and critically see how Joseph Smith did it. And so when you hear there's no way Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon, these are more areas where you could say, this is how he did it. This is how he did it. And then obviously in our upcoming overviews, we're gonna have a lot more of looking at how he could have done it and where he was pulling from. But it just shows in this particular instance, he's doing this under a lot of stress, a lot of threat from Lucy.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:16:17 And I just think it's really important to keep noting that, because when people say he couldn't have done it, it's like, no, he could have, because we have all of these fingerprints showing not just that he could, but that he did.

John Dehlin 2:16:27 Yeah, yeah, that's powerful.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:16:30 And yeah, I mean, just, you know, as a really quick overview here to end this was we talked about earlier. This is a golden opportunity. If Joseph Smith is truly a prophet of God. God here is hanging Joseph out to dry. Because God could let Joseph retranslate on a tight translation. He could strike Lucy Harris dumb. He could, he could. I mean, imagine what kind of prophetic skills it would have showed of Joseph if God had told Joseph through the Peepsheer stone where the manuscript was. And Joseph shows up at Lucy's door and says, hey, I want you to take me to the hole you dug behind the house a few weeks ago. You know what I mean? Like, all of those things would, would, would show you. This dude talks to God because he knows things that he shouldn't be able to know.

John Dehlin 2:17:08 Or what if Lucy. What if Lucy had been converted because an angel with the flaming sword came to her and said, stop it, Lucy. And then Lucy became a convert. Like, why is it only. Why is Jesus, Joseph, only seeing the angel with the flaming sword? But then no one else who's a non believer gets to have that witness.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:17:26 And that's just it. And so this is an area where Lucy Harris is, I think, obviously suspicious. And I think she realizes what Joseph's doing. It's kind of like, you know, if you go and you're at a faith healing convention in modern times and you can kind of see the things they're doing, or if you go, when you see those psychic readings and you can see how the psychic is constantly prodding you to give you. Give them clues so that they can lead you along. If you're looking for it and you see it and you call those back out to the person, they're going to stop doing it because they realize what you're doing.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:17:56 And so Joseph appears to see that Lucy knows what he's doing. And that's why Joseph says, you know, he doesn't want her help. And in this case, Lucy then puts him to the test and he fails it. And God says he won't allow his prophets to be taken down. But in a lot of ways, we could see here that God really did hang Joseph out to dry, because even though we're giving him the replacement text, he's just basically skipping all of these really easy chances to prove that he's a prophet. And if your goal is to convert as many people to the Mormon Church as possible, why in the world is God not taking that opportunity?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:18:28 Why is he sitting out the chance to prove that his prophet is a real prophet? Why is he doing almost the opposite and basically making him look like he's making it up?

John Dehlin 2:18:37 Well, what's tough about that argument is this is the most successful religion ever formed in the United States. And so even with these problems, God and Joseph were pretty effective, unless you consider that in 2022, now that all this is really known and obvious, and now that we have the Internet and people like us and Metcalfs and Tanners and Vogels and others to kind of lay it all out, the church is starting to shrink.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:19:07 Well, yeah, I mean, that's just it. It's like one of those things like we've talked about before. But it's a successful religion, and it is. But at the same time, I mean, you're talking like, what is that? Like 1% of the world, not even 1% of the world's population.

John Dehlin 2:19:18 Less than 1, less than 2/10 of

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:19:21 1%, 2, 10 and so.

John Dehlin 2:19:22 And shrinking.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:19:23 Yeah, it's successful. But at the same time, like, this is one of those areas, or translating the book of Abraham correctly, those are areas where there are testable ways to test Joseph's claims. And every time we have, like, a tangible way to test it, he fails.

John Dehlin 2:19:37 And every time it's growing with the church having to hide the very information that we're talking about today. The church has to hide this information from investigators and from its mainstream members to be able to sustain and grow. And that's the other thing, is the church has hid all this from the membership since the beginning.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:19:58 And again, I guess there's a way to finish that up and I guess to end this is just. Again, I'm still a member, but I'm not a believing member. And so if you had told me this story as an investigator, it would have. The alarm bells would have been going off my head. And so that is the thing, like you, the fact that they still hold it is really difficult. And to your point, most people don't know this. And that's why I think this one's important, because it gets in the weeds. But when you get this, it also, it helps you to understand our previous few episodes about treasure digging and the gold plates.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:20:26 But it's also going to help us to understand the next few episodes about looking at the Book of Mormon, the composition of it, and why we can Show It's a 19th century text. Because these things all go perfectly together. And I think that'll be very helpful so we can go. This slide is just, you know, we talked about it already a bit, but DNC10 almost makes it sound like Satan is more powerful than God because Satan is able to basically alter this text, harden people's hearts to expose Joseph Smith, all of these different things, but that God is unable to tell Joseph where the, where the manuscript is.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:20:59 God is unable to translate it the same way a second time so that he could stop Satan's plan. God is unable to, like you said, send an angel down to Lucy Harris to say, hey, I'm an angel of God, we need the manuscript back. All of these things God can do, or to confound their thoughts, confound their text. God can't do any of that. And yet Satan apparently is so good at this that he can make Lucy Harris come up with this scheme that she never even goes through with to alter this text. It just, you know, it's a really insecure God that comes through some of the revelations of Joseph Smith and it just makes you seem like, who's the one in charge here?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:21:34 Is it God that's running the show or is it Satan? I know that would sound very offensive to a believing member, but again, I'm just saying, why is it that God can't do anything to overcome the plan of Satan without going all the way around what Satan wants to do? It just seems like he's going through a lot of work because he can't overdo what he claims Satan is going to do.

John Dehlin 2:21:54 Yeah. All right, last slide.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:21:56 Yeah, last slide. And this is going to kind of go into our next overview, but it's just to say that the replacement text leaves his fingerprints all over the scene of the book. And it really shows why the people in the middle of the book know the end or don't know the end, whereas the people in the beginning do. And this is going to continue on as we go through the next few overviews that really hammer the text of the Book of Mormon as opposed to the production of it. And just saying, again, I've said This before, but just these issues need to be taken together because of the fact that this is good.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:22:27 This ties directly in, still into the translation, which goes into the treasure digging. And then now we're going to actually kind of transition away from that early part of the dictation and go into the actual text of the Book of Mormon and some of the truth claims it makes. And I think that this is going to be really helpful when we talk about the DNA in the Book of Mormon, which is going to be our next overview.

John Dehlin 2:22:49 All right, so that's what I was going to ask. So our next one's going to be DNA in the Book of Mormon. So we're going to step out of critical, you know, analysis, textual analysis, and we're going to talk about DNA. Yes. And then we'll come back to.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:23:05 There's Thai versus loose translation, the surrounding influences. And then once we get through the next few overviews, there's going to be one final overview on the Book of Mormon, which is basically, how could he have done it? And I think that one's gonna be really cool because there's a couple of examples in there that show you how he was pulling sources into it. And again, I think just like the 116 pages are a little bit in the weeds, but once you get it, then you start to see it. And once you start to see it, everything else becomes not just explainable, but, like, explainable to the point where you could say, only Joseph could have done this.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:23:34 And I think that's why when we talk about apologetics and all that, you have to take all of this together, because when you answer those things, you still have to answer the rest. And that's what I'm trying to do on this, to almost like, you know, put the buffers on both sides to say, if you want to go here, you got to still explain here. And, you know, I don't want to ramble on about this, but I do hope that as we go further, it will explain not just how he did it, but, like, where he was pulling from and the thoughts of his day that we don't talk about today that that just happened to end up in a text that's supposed to be ancient.

John Dehlin 2:24:08 All right, well, Mike, this was a fascinating and a really important episode, so I'm just loving this series. Thank you.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:24:14 Thank you so much.

John Dehlin 2:24:15 And everyone who wants to kind of read all this in detail, who wants to check out the footnotes, who wants to see more explanations, you can go to ldsdiscussions.com 116Pages. We'll include that in the show notes. And again, we really would love your feedback on this series. Do you like having just me and Mike? Do you want to have additional co hosts? Do you want us to try and keep it tighter? Believe it or not, we're at almost at two and a half hours and this was the shorter version, but this could have been much longer if we had had more co hosts. So do you want it with additional co hosts?

John Dehlin 2:24:58 Do you like to keep it tighter? Do you want to keep it even tighter than it is? Do you want multiple versions? We would love your feedback either in the comments or email us@mormonstoriesmail.com or you can email mikedsdiscussions rightmail.com Is that your email?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:25:13 It's LDS discussions singular, so there's no S. So ldsdiscussionmail.com I should probably get a better email address.

John Dehlin 2:25:19 Oh, even though the website is LDS discussions plural?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:25:21 Yeah, yeah, I couldn't get the Gmail, so that's fine.

John Dehlin 2:25:24 Anyway, send us your feedback. Let us know what you like. We Hope to have 40 or 50 or 60 of these episodes before all is said and done. We want it to be this series that you can binge watch, kind of like a year of polygamy. You can do a year of LDS discussions, a year of Mormon truth claims, and by the end really have a solid understanding of the problems that the Mormon Church's truth claims. Anyway, thanks so much, Mike. You're awesome. We'll see you again soon. See you viewers and listeners. And I'll just end by saying if you value this content, if you want to see it continue, we would love your financial Support.

John Dehlin 2:26:01 Go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. We're transparent in our finances. We always have been.

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