Word of Wisdom w/ LDS Discussions – 20

Introduction and Episode Overview

Mike (LDS Discussions) 0:00 Foreign.

John Dehlin 0:06 And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 25, 2022, and we are excited to have another episode in our amazing series with Mike from LDS Discussions). Today's episode is on the Word of Wisdom. For those of you who don't have a Mormon background, the Word of Wisdom is a health code that Mormons live by. Mormons are often known as being those people who don't drink alcohol or don't drink tea or don't chew tobacco or smoke or don't drink alcohol or anything like that, or do drugs. Now, we're going to get into it today, and of course, we're not the only group or even religious group who have beliefs like that.

John Dehlin 0:49 But regardless, the Word of Wisdom is what a Mormon would think of when they're thinking of their health code. And it was a health code that was given by Revelation, according to our founder, Joseph Smith. To our founder, Joseph Smith, way back in the Kirtland days, which is in the 1830s.

John Dehlin 1:09 And today we're going to be talking about its origins and, you know, how it's been emphasized over time and maybe some of the issues or problems with it if you're trying to understand or look at the Mormon Church kind of objectively as it relates to its truth claims. So that is today's episode. I do want to remind everyone that this is all based on the amazing work done by mike@ldsdiscussions.com where he has a series of essays that he has released and has done so much important work. Please check it out.

John Dehlin 1:45 It's a real contribution to our people. I also want to just remind people that all of these LDS Discussions) episodes are available on anchor. They're available on Spotify both in audio format and in video format. They're available on the Apple Podcast app in audio format pretty much anywhere you get your podcasts. And of course, the video versions are available on YouTube in the LDS Discussions) YouTube playlist under the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. So that is kind of the introduction for today. We're trying to make these introductions tight. Welcome back to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:27 What's up, everybody?

John Dehlin 2:29 It's great to have you.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:30 It's nice to be back for another one. And I think it's kind of been nice the last few weeks kind of doing them that are not quite going through, like, biblical scholarship and Book of Mormon Scripture stuff is nice to have a little bit of a change and going through some of the history. And so today we'll kind of be a Good continuation from last week's episode on changes to the doctrine and covenants to go over the Word of Wisdom, which is obviously a very impactful revelation in. In the Church today and. And looking at kind of how it was treated at the time and. And what may have changed with regards to how the Church has interpreted it.

John Dehlin 3:05 Absolutely. All right, well, let's just jump in. Tell us a bit about your first slide.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 3:11 Yeah. And just we're kind of, as we've been doing these overview episodes, we've been talking about how they all kind of tie into each other in different ways. And we've talked about how Joseph Smith has had a pattern of pulling surrounding ideas and repurposing them in the name of God as a theological vehicle. As David Bachavoy would say, he's kind of actualizing information in a way that makes sense and fits in with his theological goals. And the Word of Wisdom feels like a perfect example of this because it's going to incorporate ideas that are very strong in his lifetime, in his time and place, that are not only going to be repurposed by Joseph, but later the leaders of the Church are going to have to repurpose them again as they try to figure out how to implement a revelation that was never a commandment in the first place, and also becomes kind of dated as we get advances in nutrition and science and all of that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 4:00 And so this particular topic does not have like a full out gospel topics essay. So we're going to use a video that the church put out, I believe, three years ago, I think it was 2019. And it's a series of videos they did called now, you know, and it features kind of like a cartoony, in my opinion, somewhat childish kind of artwork and highlights some of these more troubling, controversial issues of the church in a very short, concise video. So we're going to use that almost as if it's an essay. And because they give us how they view it as a history, how they view it as the revelation, and also how the Church interprets it today.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 4:39 And so I think it'll be a good backdrop almost as a way to look at kind of the apologetic response will be to look directly at how the Church frames it.

John Dehlin 4:47 Excellent. All right, so let's. Let's jump in. And. And I'm. And I think these videos are kind of campy, they're kind of fun, and. And we'll have a bit of a multimedia extravaganza. Yeah. Instead of just kind of text and images.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 5:02 Yeah. So hopefully this will be A little bit of a change with some breakup with some video and. And hopefully that'll give a little break from hearing us talk as well, so that'll be good.

The Church's Official Word of Wisdom Presentation

John Dehlin 5:10 All right, so here we have the first video from. From the LDS Church introducing the Word of Wisdom, right?

clip 5:17 Yep.

John Dehlin 5:18 All right, let's kick it off.

clip 5:21 Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints live by a health code called the Word of Wisdom. What is the Word of Wisdom? And why do millions of Latter Day Saints around the world follow it? Let's take a closer look. The prophet Joseph Smith received the Word of Wisdom by revelation in 1833. He wrote the Revelation down and canonized it in a collection of revelations called the Doctrine and Covenants, which Latter Day Saints view as Scripture. The Revelation is recognized by most as the reason why Latter Day Saints abstain from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, and drug use. But to understand why the Word of Wisdom came about, we first need to know some historical context.

John Dehlin 6:05 Okay, so that's. That's kind of the introduction. And so far, as someone raised Mormon, as someone who was Mormon until I was 45, there was nothing there I heard that was wrong or objectionable or misleading.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 6:17 Yep, I agree. So, yeah, that's. Oh, no, I'm. So, yeah, sorry. If we go to the next slide, it's. I agree with you. I think the opening paragraph is fairly straightforward. I think they're stating basically what the Word of Wisdom is with regards to how the Church views it today. The one thing I wanted to add, and you see this a lot in their videos, is that when they do the imagery of Joseph Smith writing down the Revelation, they have him sitting there kind of writing in himself. Super scholarly. And I'm not positive on the Word of Wisdom, but I believe this is early enough to where Joseph is still using the rock and the hat to read the Revelations.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 6:53 And so, of course, historically speaking, I believe they should be using the video clip of Joseph with his head in the hat, with the scribe writing down the words next to him. And, you know, it's a small thing. I get it. And the Word of Wisdom might have been after he stopped using the stone. I don't think it is, but it could be. It's kind of in that gray area, but it's just one of those areas where. And we're going to see this more as this video goes along. They try to make this imagery incredibly positive and faith promoting when it comes to the church, and then when it comes to the outside the church, they do not give such charity.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 7:26 And the other Part I would just add is while the Word of Wisdom today is why members are not allowed to drink alcohol, the text of the Word of Wisdom does allow itself for beer, which we're going to get into as we go. But it just shows right off the bat here that the messiness of the wording of the Revelation is going to be problematic for this video and also for, you know, we'll mention the overview. And just to note right off the bat that the Church is proclaiming the Word of Wisdom as it has been redefined today by leaders as kind of the way it was originally intended, and it just does not match with how the Revelation was originally recorded. And that's not even getting into the historical background of it.

John Dehlin 8:06 Okay. All right. So a couple little quibbles a little bit.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 8:10 Yeah. Pretty straightforward. Yeah.

John Dehlin 8:12 So far, pretty straightforward. And I agree with you, that has been a major point of deception for Mormons for over a century. The church. Well, at least for 70, 80 years, the church is depicted consistently, Joseph Smith, as translating with the urimum Thummim, with the breastplate and the spectacles, when we now know it's the stone in the hat. And it was only when the Internet embarrassed the Church into coming up with other depictions. Yeah, fair. That's a fair criticism.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 8:42 Well, yeah. And I think when you talk about Revelations a lot of times, especially even when I first started reading about the stone in the hat for the Book of Mormon, I did not realize the Revelation were done the same way at first. And then you start seeing, I think it's some of the headers, it'll say, like, receive through the urim and thumb. And all of a sudden you're like, oh, crap. That means he's receiving the Revelations just as he did claim to translate the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin 9:01 Oh.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 9:01 And also just as he claimed to see hidden treasure that he charged people money to look for. And that's why we talk about these episodes being connected, because treasure digging is using the same technique as translating the Book of Mormon, which is using the same technique as receiving these early revelations. And we talked about that a lot in the last episode. But it is important to note, even though we did talk about it a lot in the last episode, just that that is something that the Church is not going to put in these videos, that Joseph is using that rock and a hat to receive these early revelations. And I know this one's possibly after that, I'm not positive, but it's right in that. That kind of area where he's starting to. To not use it. As much.

John Dehlin 9:36 Yeah. It's an example of whitewashing.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 9:38 Yeah.

John Dehlin 9:39 Your history.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 9:40 Yeah.

John Dehlin 9:40 And sanitizing it, which is a form of deception. Okay, let's continue with the video.

Historical Context and Origins of the Revelation

clip 9:48 The Word of Wisdom appeared at a time of intense public debate in the United States about alcohol abuse. As early as the 1810s, rapidly growing industrialization and alcohol use had begun breaking down previously held social norms. By the 1830s, many adults in the United States had been raised in families where alcoholic beverages were consumed at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Many people became concerned about the social and health consequences of increased alcohol consumption. The temperance movement grew as reformers called for abstinence from hard liquor. Any involved with the movement went further, taking a pledge against all alcoholic beverages, including beer. Some even recommended coffee as a substitute for alcohol, given that clean water was not always available. At the same time, some reformers spoke out against tobacco use.

John Dehlin 10:43 Okay, do you mind if I give you my quick reaction to that?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 10:45 No, go ahead.

John Dehlin 10:46 As. As someone who has not really seen these videos or paid attention to them, but as someone who was raised Mormon for 45 years, that's more of a background on the Word of Wisdom than I ever received in my 45 years in the church. It was always sort of like, Emma saw that some of the elders in Kirtland were chewing tobacco and spitting the tobacco on the floor of the temple. She complained, joseph went to God and got a revelation. Never was the Word of Wisdom discussed to me as something coming out of the context of the temperance movement that, I mean, I love it that they're doing that now.

John Dehlin 11:24 But that was not my. My experience for four and a half decades. Because it was important, I think, for the church to have us all believe that Joseph just got his revelations from God. If the church is just telling us, oh, Joseph saw that thing and then brought it in, and then he saw that thing and brought it in. It makes it a lot less miraculous, you know, than if he's getting it straight from God. And that's why I believe a lot of that context was never given to us. Now. That's just my gut reaction.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 11:52 No, that's pretty much it. So, yeah, I mean, my reaction's on the slides, and I pretty much said the same thing because we're validating each other. Well, as a convert, I remember very, very specifically, because when I took the discussions, I took them with people I knew and who were in the church. And at the time, it was my girlfriend, who's now my wife, and I remember very specifically my now mother in law telling me about how Joseph Smith knew that smoking and drinking was bad before anyone else knew it. And because he got through God. And I remember thinking at the time that that was pretty cool because, you know, this was in the late 90s.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 12:26 So you figure in the late 90s, they were still just really kind of getting to the point where they were really hammering down on, you know, advertising smoking and really outlining the health danger. I mean, they knew it was bad at that point, but it was really becoming more mainstream. And so you're thinking you're living in a time when it's kind of becoming common knowledge, but like, to think that 160 years earlier, Joseph Smith was one of the first people to declare it, I thought, that's amazing. So to find this out, you're like, oh, he just took another thing that was being talked about heavily in his area in his time and place.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 13:00 There's nothing, like you said, there's nothing miraculous about it. And as we've talked about, like with the Book of Mormon, it's explainable when you claim something's a miracle and then you have all of these ways you can explain it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 13:11 It's just. It's very ordinary and it's actually what you expect at this point from Joseph Smith. So I won't read all of this just because we kind of covered it. But yeah, it's the same thing. Like, I want to give them credit because this video does state that this was something that was being talked about, that there was a growing public movement against alcohol, tobacco and other substances because of the way people acted when they were drunk, because of the fact that, you know, tobacco was leaving stains all over and smoke and just kind of gross. And, you know, as I mentioned here too, it's just when I was took the discussions, it was told me that no one could have possibly known this.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 13:45 And this is just another area where Joseph Smith's bringing surrounding influence. And so as we talked about in the last few weeks alone, Joseph Smith, you know, didn't mention the Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthoods until the Campbellite movement brought over the idea of split priesthoods. You mentioned before, the multiple Tears of Heaven is from Emanuel Swedenborg. The first vision we talked about in that episode, that there were like three dozen accounts in Joseph Smith's area that had very similar language, almost identical language to Joseph Smith's first vision, the temple endowment from the Masonic ceremony. And so we're just seeing more and more patterns of Joseph Smith taking surrounding material and then using that as a vehicle for his own ideas.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 14:23 And so I want to give credit to the church for declaring this upfront, because it is something that was not talked about, certainly in my time in the church. And so while I give him credit for it, it also is quite a surprise to learn that this was not very unique for Joseph Smith to come up with.

John Dehlin 14:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I. I love it that they're now kind of acknowledging the surrounding influences. Terrell Givens has now said that Joseph was an inspired syncretist, which is his elegant way of creating a euphemism to explain the fact that basically he just. He just imported surrounding influences into all his doctrines and revelations. But I. You know, I've already said it, but that was not the Mormonism I was raised in, and that's not the Joseph Smith I was sold. And so this is a bit of a bait and switch to me.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 15:14 Yeah, I mean, it is. It's just one of those things where, you know, we. It's just different than it was told. And now it's almost being told. Like, it's been told the whole time. And that's one of those things where you're like, come on. Like, we know this is not. I could tell you. I mean, I remember there's certain. There are certain things I was told during those discussions and during my temple experience that I will never forget, and that's one of them. Just because it was at the time, like, holy crap. I. That's a pretty good proof he was a prophet. But like you said, you find out that this is not how it happened, and certainly not pulling it out of thin air. So it's a problem.

John Dehlin 15:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's go to the next slide.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 15:48 Yeah, so next slide. It's just, you know, again, we're talking about how unique is Joseph's word of Wisdom revelation. And so they mentioned the temperance movement in the video, and the temperance movement was very much a thing by the 1820s. Simplicity of health. And this is actually from the Mormon Stories essay on the Word of Wisdom that's on your website. I think Michael Brown put it together, I believe. Right?

John Dehlin 16:09 Yep, yep.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 16:10 And super good. And so I copied from you guys because it was easier than typing this out myself. And it was really well done. So he said the temperance movement was very much a thing by the late 1820s. Simplicity of Health, published in 1829, elaborates on every item in the Word of Wisdom. Means of Preserving Health was published in 1806 and contains every bit of the Word of Wisdom. Avoidance of alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco, and sparing use of Meat, as well as eating fruits in season. The Journal of Health, published in Philadelphia, August 25, 1830, also contains every aspect of the word of wisdom.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 16:42 The Kirtland chapter of the Temperance Society found formed in 1830. Shortly before Mormons arrived from New York, Presbyterian minister Sylvester Graham conducted a speaking tour for almost 15 years, extolling the virtues of abstaining from alcohol, smoking tea, coffee, and eating a diet of mainly of grains, local fruits and vegetables. Meat was expressly forbidden. He was popular and well known in the late 1820s to 1840 and also invented the Graham cracker. It's kind of a cool fact.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 17:09 February 26, 1833, was National Day of Temperance, which prompted much discussion in Nauvoo. That might mean Kirtland. I'm not sure. It was common practice at the school of Elders to chew, spit and smoke tobacco. The ladies, as tradition would have it, were tasked with cleaning up the boy's mess. Emma was prompted to lament it would be a good thing if a revelation could be had, declaring the use of tobacco a sin and commanding its suppression. The matter was taken up and joked about. One of the brethren suggests that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from coffee and tea drinking. Intending this as a counter dig at the sisters.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 17:42 Far from a groundbreaking revelation from God about health, Joseph Smith, Emma and the school of elders were simply discussing the events of their day. Imagine their surprise when the following day, February 27, 1833, Smith brought forth revelation from God that conveniently ended the debate using the very language of the temperance movement. I mean, it's just. I don't know what else to say.

John Dehlin 18:02 So I'll give you my reaction to that. On the one hand, yeah, it sounds like, how's that revelation? If Joseph's like, paying attention to the temperance movement all around him in Kirtland, he's getting feedback from Emma, talking to the elders about some things, goes back to God, comes back and basically puts all that in the King James English kind of revelation. So, like, you know, all that's true

Mike (LDS Discussions) 18:28 and,

John Dehlin 18:32 you know, it's, it's super. It's not really. It would be like, I watched Oprah and Dr. Phil and, or, or, you know, who's the Dave Ramsey guy? And he's like, don't go to, don't. Don't get.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 18:41 Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 18:42 And then I go back and receive a revelation that that's bad. Like, you know, it's not super remarkable. It's clearly influenced by those surround you, surrounding you. You don't even give them credit right and then you call it revelation. So on the one hand, that's problematic. The apologetic voice in me is saying, what do you expect Joseph to kind of pull things out of thin air? Of course he's gonna, you know, and the church would even probably admit this earlier, that of course he received revelations in response to questions he was asking or situations he was confronting. And so I could hear a progressive Mormon apologist say, come on, Mike.

John Dehlin 19:25 Of course he's influenced by people surround him. And that's a feature, not a bug, that Emma's influence in, because it shows that he cares about his wife and he cares about women, and then he's able to take influence. So, like, and I think at the end, you claim this isn't a smoking gun. I'm just trying to be fair in my response to what I've read so far.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 19:44 Yeah. And my response, though, to that would be it's because. Yeah, the apologetic response, absolutely, is to say, Joseph Smith himself says that you are to seek knowledge out of the best books, out of the best sources, all that stuff. So I get that. My problem is when you claim to get a revelation, even if it is prompted by Emma, I have no problem with that either, because of course you're going to be prompted by something. Right. But when you give a revelation that is taking everything you know in your worldview and adding nothing else, it shows that the revelation is not from a source other than your own mind.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 20:16 Because Joseph Smith. And we're going to. We're going to hit this a few times in this thing. He could have saved lives in the church if his revelation included boiling water, which happened to be something nobody knew at that time, was a way to keep healthy. I mean, part of the reason they drank alcohol for breakfast is because it was a way to keep water from making you sick. And yet in this revelation, Joseph Smith does not get anything that is not talked about the time, such as boiling water. And we'll mention this later in this episode, that leads to people in the early church being killed are dying and a lot of them getting very, very sick.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 20:48 Because God apparently didn't seem deemed fit to give Joseph any knowledge beyond what he knew. And I realize that sounds very sharp, but at the same time, that's the reality. So if you want to say, isn't it great that Emma prompted it, I would say absolutely. That being said, that prompting should lead to something more than what was already being talked about in his day.

John Dehlin 21:06 Yeah. Wouldn't it be amazing if DNC89 began with, for behold, there are These things called germs and this thing called germ theory.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 21:14 Yeah.

John Dehlin 21:14 And there's bacteria and microbes, things beh told that thou cannot see yet make thy sick, you know?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 21:21 Yeah.

John Dehlin 21:21 Even reasons, you know.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 21:23 Yeah.

John Dehlin 21:24 This way, so that you don't get sick. Now, that would be revelation.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 21:27 That's just it. Just imagine if there's a verse in there that says, and I the Lord deem that ye shall boil all water before consuming, for unboiled water can lead to great illness. Something like that. That's something that wasn't known very well at the time, and yet we don't have any of that. And, you know, it would be kind of like.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 21:46 I don't want to sound like a jerk here, but if you had a pandemic in America in the 2000s, and you had a prophet who was a church, and you had apologists saying, Or a prophet in the church who was a doctor, and you had apologists saying, oh, my goodness, how lucky are we that we have a doctor as a prophet during a pandemic? And that prophet didn't give us any information beyond what the CDC was giving us. I would say that's a pretty good tell that God's not speaking to him, but because he couldn't even give us the information to keep us healthy before the government could.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 22:13 Which tells you there's no real use for a profit when you've got the government. Who's going to get there first anyways? I mean, just hypothetically speaking. Of course.

John Dehlin 22:20 Of course. Of course.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 22:21 Yeah.

Joseph Smith's Personal Relationship with Alcohol

John Dehlin 22:22 All right, well, let's go to the next little video clip.

clip 22:27 It was in this social climate in the early 1830s that Joseph Smith started a series of formal classes called the School of the Prophets. This school was an assembly of church leaders who met to discuss and instruct one another in theological and secular learning, such as religion, economics, philosophy, and civic matters. But the attendees frequently smoked, chewed, and spat tobacco, all in the same space, where Joseph taught the school and recorded revelations. In addition, Emma Smith, Joseph's wife, was left to clean up the mess, and she was disturbed by the men's actions. She spoke to Joseph about it. Joseph inquired of the Lord and received the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom.

John Dehlin 23:11 Okay, so there it's mentioning Emma's influence.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 23:15 Yeah, and. And that's pretty straightforward as well. I mean, I don't know if he. Because some of these don't have, like, tons of reaction. I just. I feel like some of the times.

John Dehlin 23:22 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 23:23 I mean, you'll see in the slides. I. I have some thoughts on it, but it's not like anything. One thing I'll note, and this is one of the things that drives me nuts about these videos, is they use very cartoony graphics and in a lot of ways they do it in a way that privileges the church and it kind of goes against outsiders. So if you look at this, when they show people in the church smoking and drinking, they're up like that top image. They're super scholarly. It's almost like they're sitting there in a class, like, going over these really deep philosophical ideas. And then when they talk about anyone outside the church drinking, they look like a bunch of hunched over drunks on the bottom.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 23:52 I just feel like that's a very manipulative way to use imagery to, you know, try to elevate church members. Like saying, even when we did it, we were still looking better than them. And I feel that's just, you know, it might be splitting hairs a bit, but I just. That's why these now, you know, videos, I've covered a few of them on the website. They're misleading in the data, but they're also really misleading in the imagery. And so imagery is important. They know that. That's why they're putting these together.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 24:17 So, you know, that's just. It's a small. I know it's a small thing, but I just like using the images because it's easy to show how they frame, you know, us versus them.

John Dehlin 24:25 It's a little bit manipulative.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 24:26 I think so, but a little bit marketing. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that people in the church don't know, and I certainly didn't know as a member, is that Joseph Smith drank after the Word of Wisdom. And so almost every member of the church was drinking after the Word of Wisdom. And we even have record that Joseph Smith was drinking wine on the day he died. Which is crazy to think, considering at that point he would have had his endowment, all these other things, and yet he was drinking on the day he died. And John Taylor recalled from the history of the church, sometime after dinner, we sent for some wine.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 24:56 It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing. Our spirits were generally dull and heavy and it was sent for to revive us. I think it was Captain Jones who went after it, but they would not suffer him to return. I believe we all drank of the wine and gave some to one or two of the prison guards. And so, you know, it's pretty clear that, that they drank wine. And so three years after the revelation we have from the history of the church, we then partook of some refreshments, and our hearts are made glad with the fruit of the vine.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 25:24 This is an accord. This is according to the pattern set by our Savior himself. And we feel disposed to patronize all the institutions of heaven. So clearly they view the Word of Wisdom different than the Church has redefined it today. And until the day he died, he was drinking alcohol. Yeah.

John Dehlin 25:42 Yeah. And I'm just gonna say that that part is significant to me and it's meaningful because never that I can remember in all of my church education in 45 years, including seminary, four years of early morning seminary in high school, all the Sunday school and priesthood lessons, and then all the religious education at byu. Never was I told that Joseph kept drinking alcohol. It wasn't just that. It wasn't just the drinking wine. The night before he was martyred, the Nauvoo House had a bar.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 26:15 Yep.

John Dehlin 26:16 Like, he drank, you know, strong liquor. He drank wine. All the other members of the church did. And I'm sure you're going to get to this, but prophet, sirs and revelators all the way into the 20th century, the early 20th century, the pioneers, they were all still drinking alcohol, and they were all still drinking alcohol. And that was. That information was withheld from us, I believe intentionally, in fact. I don't know if you mentioned this, but like when Leonard Arrington was called to be church historian in 1972 and he started releasing by the church, he was a credible historian and he started releasing articles. I seem to recall that, like some of the articles he released talked about alcohol or tobacco consumption by some of the apostles after Joseph Smith died.

John Dehlin 27:02 And that literally made some of the modern apostles, the contemporary apostles, like, I don't know, Ezra Benson or Boyd K. Packer or whoever it was that made them uncomfortable, such that they would tell Leonard Arrington that they were uncomfortable with these articles. And ultimately, after 10 years, they shut Leonard Arrington down, closed down the history department and. And scuttled it all for another couple decades until the Internet. Internet kind of came about. And again, that just showed that the church made a conscious effort to hide and. Or deceive us as members from this important information about the Word of Wisdom.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 27:43 Yeah, and I don't have Valerie Arrington stuff, so I'm glad you brought that up. I do have instances where they do whitewash their history because they don't want you to realize it. So. Yeah, I mean, it's just like we talked about these last few episodes. There have Been intentional actions by church leaders to hide information from members. And. And that should tell people that this is a problem and not, you know, again, unless you're using special pleading to say, well, it's different because we trust these leaders. You know, what would you say if other leaders were constantly rewriting their history and hiding it from members? And it would not be a positive reaction. So, yeah, it's not good.

John Dehlin 28:18 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So. All right, let's go to the next slide.

Alcohol and Early Latter-day Saint Visionary Experiences

Mike (LDS Discussions) 28:26 And the next slide is one that I think is really interesting because this was one that to me, was kind of a shocker, which is that many of the early visionary experiences within the church all included and involved alcohol. So I think the first time I came across it was when I was doing the saints, chapter by chapter stuff. And you're reading about, basically, they were having so many visions in Kirtland when they were dedicating the temple that Joseph Smith had to basically tell them to stop drinking because they were basically acting out of control. And it's not to say that all the church members were habitual drunks.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 28:57 It's just to say that it sure seems like when you fast and then you drink a lot of alcohol, things happen pretty quick. And so from the temple dedication in Kirtland, they said, during this meeting, the men began to speak in tongues as the Savior's apostles had done at Pentecost. Some at the meeting saw heavenly fire resting on those who spoke. Others saw angels outside. Saints saw a bright cloud in a pillar of fire rest over the temple.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 29:21 And then there's another mention of about these experiences having having been begun after, you know, taking bread and wine after fasting in the temple. It says, Joseph and his counselors went home, leaving the 12 to take charge of the meeting. The spirit again descended upon the men in the temple, and they began to prophesy, speak in tongues, and exhort one another. In the gospel ministering, angels appeared to some men, and a few others had visions of the Savior. And this is one of those ones that obviously has to do with the Word of Wisdom because of the fact that they were drinking after the Word of Wisdom.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 29:54 It also shows how these visions that you talk about in the church and sometimes tend to happen after drinking wine with Joseph Smith. And I know there's a lot of theories on if Joseph put anything in there, and I have no idea what to make of that. I would just point out that even without putting anything in there, if you have people fasting all day and then you drink a bunch of wine, you're much more likely to start having visions or experiences that would not happen if you were not drinking or even if you just had a full stomach and you drank something. So alcohol played a role in some of these to the point where Joseph Smith had to actually clamp down on the church for having too many visionary experiences, which, again, imagine this kind of stuff happening today.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 30:38 It wouldn't, because people don't have this worldview today, but it just shows how. It shows the worldview that the early members had with regards to how you could have visions, how you could speak in tongues, when today we look at that and go, yeah, none of this happens. So I just want to point that out for not just the word of wisdom, but the idea of revelation, the idea of personal revelation, the idea of visions. And just to note that you can induce them by using substances such as alcohol and an empty stomach.

John Dehlin 31:06 Yeah, and we may talk about this later, but, you know, these days, psychedelics are all the rage in, in the United States, but also amongst ex Mormons and even some active, devoted Mormons. And there's been a lot of people theorizing that maybe Joseph Smith or early Saints used entheogens or psychedelics.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 31:23 Yeah.

John Dehlin 31:24 Magic mushrooms or, you know, who knows? But what we do know is that things like peyote or marijuana or, you know, even alcohol can, you know, can influence certain parts of your brain that can make it more likely that you would experience what some would call a spiritual experience. And that's, again, this is something that was never mentioned to us growing up. We're told the miracles of Kirtland and, you know, the spirit of God, like a fire is burning and that pillars are descending from the sky and angels are being seen above the temple. Never are we told that a bunch of the members are drunk.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 32:04 Yeah, I mean, that's just it. And like I said, I've listened to some of the podcasts and presentations on, like, the whole entheogen theory and all, using mushrooms, all that stuff. I don't know what to make of it. It's compelling, but at the same time, I don't have, like, direct evidence for it. I would just say that you can see in your own life, if you are with people who are drinking a lot, especially if, you know they haven't eaten anything that day, they're going to be acting in a way where they are more likely to think they're experiencing something or claim to be experiencing something.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 32:35 And as you said, this is just something that's not noted. It would be nice if in the scriptures it said after they fasted all day before the temple dedication and drank a bunch of wine with Joseph Smith, they began to see these things. And you go, oh, yeah, okay, that makes more sense. But of course, they leave that part out. So it seems more miraculous when, again, a lot of these early miracles are explained, or at least we can look at the contemporary accounts and show that they're maybe not quite what they were, but either way, they're not what we're being told later on that they are.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 33:02 And it's just important to note that here because it not only shows that maybe these visions were impacted by alcohol, but it's impacted by alcohol after the Word of Wisdom was written.

John Dehlin 33:11 Yeah, and it's always about informed consent. The church is just systematically withheld, changed, edited, or withheld or whitewashed information from its membership and from the general public. And that's. That's going to be a stain until they just own up to that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 33:28 Well, yeah, Yep. I mean, yeah, we don't need to keep going on that. So. And, you know, one of the things we mentioned is that one of the biggest issues with the Word of Wisdom is kind of how and why the revelation happened. And the church does note in the video that Emma's frustrated with cleaning up after these meetings, which led to Joseph inquiring of the Lord, which makes sense. And what's particularly interesting about this revelation is a late reminiscence from David Whitmer as to the origin of the revelation. He said some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 33:59 Smith to make the ironical remark that it would be a good thing if a revelation could be had, declaring the use of tobacco as sin and commanding its suppression. The matter was taken up and joked about. One of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, including intending this as a counter dig at the sisters. And, you know, it needs to be noted this is a late account from what, after the revelation took place, but it's by somebody who was with everyone in the early church. And it also fits the pattern of Joseph receiving revelation in a way that seemed to take care of the problems he had at a given moment.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 34:34 And it's also kind of funny that, you know, they mentioned tea and coffee drinking to basically get back at Emma. And that one, to me, I don't know, because they don't mention coffee or tea, they just mentioned hot drinks. It's just that that was kind of the way it was framed and it just. To me, the bigger picture shows a pattern of Joseph Smith being able to pull from surrounding ideas when he's asked to, to create vehicles to basically fix problems. Whether it's like we talked about in recent weeks with the priesthood, to gain authority, the first vision to establish himself as the one person visited by God, we're going to have it later when it comes to polygamy and stuff.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 35:09 And it just shows that revelation is a vehicle for Joseph Smith to get credibility for things that maybe people wouldn't listen to otherwise. And the fact that it came a day after Emma asked for it just shows how easily he could receive revelation compared to today.

John Dehlin 35:25 Absolutely. Okay, so we've got another. Another video.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 35:31 Yep, another piece of the video.

John Dehlin 35:33 Another piece of the video. Yeah, let's go ahead and run it.

clip 35:38 The revelation helped the Saints navigate many of the issues debated by reformers, and it also addressed Emma's specific concerns. For example, the Lord warned against the consumption of strong drinks, which Latter Day Saints understand to mean alcohol. Also, the Lord cautioned that hot drinks, understood as coffee and tea, were not for the belly, in other words, not to be consumed.

clip 36:00 Neither was tobacco, which was better used as an herb for sick cattle. Also at the time, some groups like the Shakers, advised against eating meat, while other groups advocated no restrictions at all. However, in the Word of Wisdom, the Lord revealed that he ordained meat, both beast and fowl, for the use of man on condition that it be eaten sparingly.

clip 36:22 The Word of Wisdom, given in its early American context did not specifically mention many substances that have since become common as the world's industries began mass production of such substances. Church leaders encouraged Latter Day Saints to use common sense and stay away from harmful habit forming substances.

clip 36:41 For example, recreational drugs should be avoided, while the authorized and correct use of prescription drugs is okay. In the Word of Wisdom, the Lord also warns against conspiring men with evil designs, foreshadowing a surge of substance abuse, addiction and death.

John Dehlin 36:57 Okay, so what are your kind of immediate thoughts or reactions to that?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 37:02 I guess, I guess for that would just go to the next slide because otherwise I'll keep repeating myself. But yeah, I think, yeah, I think for, for me, I think the church is glossing over some of the big issues. And for example, the first thing that I think stuck out to me is they present this idea that DNC89, which is the Word of Wisdom, that it's understood to mean coffee and tea for hot drinks. And that's just nonsensical. And so I want to read what DNC89 says about that. They say, and again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly. So early church members took this not only as coffee and tea, but I mean, hot soups, which we know can be quite healthy.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 37:36 Uhm, it can mean coffee, it can mean tea, can mean hot chocolate, which is also allowed under the word of wisdom apparently today. And so we have a very inconsistent use of what hot drinks is. And today you can drink hot chocolate at a temple recommend interview and get your temple recommend. But if you were to say you're a habitual coffee drinker, I guess depending on the bishop, some will still give it to you, but you can easily be forbidden from it. And so they make it sound like we've talked about in these previous episodes about how church history makes everything seem so clean and the word of wisdom is just not a logical revelation.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 38:09 You know, we're told that hot drinks are in reference to coffee and tea, but you can't drink iced coffee or iced tea and keep a temple recommend. And some apologists will say it's about caffeine, except that you can now drink caffeinated soda. And BYU just made a big PR move in selling Coke products. I think like a year or two, I think I wrote this last year. So it really makes no sense when you look at you can drink, you can't drink hot drinks, but you also can't drink iced coffee and tea. Then they'll say it's caffeine, but you can drink coke, you can drink monster energy drinks or, you know, Red Bull or whatever.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 38:40 And so habitual substances or substances that alter your body really aren't the issue. It's very subjective. And so there's no further revelation that clarifies hot drinks means just coffee. And even if that were true, it still wouldn't excuse the whole problem of why iced coffee is not okay. And so none of this adds up. And the fact is all of this is dated to Joseph Smith's time and place, which strips the word of wisdom of any sense of revelation because nothing is unknown from this time.

John Dehlin 39:09 Yeah, and that has always been a super confusing and inconsistent part of Mormonism because people be like, you can't drink coffee and tea. How come? Well, some dude a couple hundred years ago received a revelation that said you can't have hot drinks. And they're like, hot drinks. Well, can you drink cold drinks if they're coffee and tea? Well, no, because modern day prophets have revealed that it's the caffeine. You can't drink any Caffeine. Well, you could drink, you know, some say you could drink Coke and Diet Coke and some say you can't. Well, barks Root beer has caffeine. Well, some don't know that. And, well, doesn't chocolate have caffeine? And like you were saying when you were at BYU when I was growing up and I think still at church headquarters, you literally can't get, or you couldn't get, like you said, Coca Cola. With regular caffeine, you would get caffeine free Coke.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 40:01 Yep.

John Dehlin 40:02 Right. And caffeine free Diet Coke for. For decades and decades and decades. And so many orthodox Mormons would kind of flex over.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 40:11 Yeah.

John Dehlin 40:12 Types of Mormons by saying, well, I'm a real Mormon because I don't drink any. You know, there it was the, it was the thing you bragged about in the 80s, if you had never tried Coke or you never tried a Dr. Pepper, that was a way for you to flex and show that you were a super orthodox member. But putting all of that silliness aside, like you said, where's the revelation? What does it mean? Why isn't any of this specified? We're taught that the scriptures are written for our day. And yet it's very, very clear just in DNC89 alone that this wasn't written for our day because it makes no sense in 1980 or even 2022. But we're stuck with it because they don't give any additional revelations, Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 40:55 Yeah. And it makes a lot more sense when you realize that in the 1830s, people believe that if you drank drinks that were too hot, it could ruin it could hurt your internal organs. So there was a belief that drinking coffee was harmful because it could scald your insides, which is why hot drinks or hot soup would have been in that same rhyme. Or hot chocolate. And so the fact that they're misreading the temperance movement into this, it just shows that it's not revelation and it's just, it's the way they, the way they redefine it, which I guess we'll get to on the next slide. It just tells us that they don't know, or at least they're not getting any information that we couldn't get on our own.

John Dehlin 41:29 Yeah, let's go to the next slide.

Evaluating the Word of Wisdom as Divine Revelation

Mike (LDS Discussions) 41:31 And so for me, one of the best ways to know that this is not from God is what we mentioned earlier is that there's no thing in here that's unknown at the time, especially the idea of boiling water.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 41:42 And if you read the Saints book in chapter 19 of the first Saints book. There's a cholera outbreak that happens and it sickens over 60 members of the church and over a dozen early members of the church die from it. This outbreak happened the year after the Word of Wisdom was recorded. And like I said, what better way to know that Joseph Smith was receiving real revelation from God than to learn such a basic necessity, such as boiling their water before consuming it, which not only would have helped the church, but it would have helped the world. Let's be honest, this would have been something that would have been not only big for the church, but it would have been a huge way to get people to join the church, be able to say, hey, we found out this thing that'll keep you from getting sick, and we didn't know it until him.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 42:22 And it's just to reiterate this, every concept in the Word of Wisdom was known to Joseph Smith through outside movements such as the temperance movement. Yet the most important revelations that we could have known, such as boiling water, were left unsaid. And for me, that's a red flag because just like the Book of Mormon, every revelation stops the moment the Book of Mormon is being written. And the Word of Wisdom, every idea of what is called a health code is dated to the moment it was written. And not for the. The Latter Day is not for the church today. This is for the 1830s because it's limited to what the 1830s knew.

John Dehlin 42:55 Yeah, and that's just so profound. Why does God care about. I mean, now we're going to get to this. But like, now we know that many people say coffee and tea is actually healthy. So why have we been avoiding. Why was it so important for God to give us this ambiguous revelation in these arcane or archaic words that don't even make sense to us, so that then we're avoiding a couple beverages that are actually healthy for us, substituting them with super unhealthy beverages like Diet Coke and all the chemicals in soda and monster drinks, etc. And then he's completely forgetting some of the actual dietary things.

John Dehlin 43:38 You know, let's agree, like smoking causes cancer. That's a hit. That's a win. Tobacco. Tobacco causes mouth cancer. That's a win. But. But coffee and tea, is that a win? And why in the fetch didn't God, you know, tell us things like boiling water, germ theory, other things that have been made way more important?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 43:58 Yeah, I agree. It's inconsistent.

John Dehlin 44:01 Okay. All right, so next. Next slide is, did the Word of Wisdom warn of substance abuse?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 44:08 Yeah. So the video really goes hard at saying that the word of Wisdom is warning against substance abuse. And it's really convenient to say that. But one has to remember, in Joseph Smith's time, they believed the world was ending in a matter of years. The reference in the Word of Wisdom to the consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days has to be taken in that context that they believe they were in those last days. They're not specifically referring to substances 200 years later because they believe the world is going to be over in 200 years.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 44:38 They believe the second coming is happening, you know, within the next 40, 50 years. I think Joseph Smith had that one revelation. If he lived like 86, it would happen. And a lot of the patriarchal blessings at the time said that they'd live long enough to see Jesus. They believed fully that the world was going to be done and the second coming was going to happen before 1900. So this is another area where they are imposing into this revelation things that not only are not there, but things that are kind of contradicted against by looking at the text in the context of the revelation. Because this revelation is very, very, very boxed into an 1830s mindset.

John Dehlin 45:14 Yeah, absolutely. Which. Which fits the model of Joseph Smith importing things from his, you know, surrounding influences.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 45:22 Yeah. And so this one.

John Dehlin 45:24 This one's mind blowing to me.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 45:25 Yeah, this one. This one shows. Well, two things. One is, the word of wisdom says beer is okay. So from DNC89, it says, nevertheless, wheat for man and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for the. For swine and. And for all beasts of the fields, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks as also other grain. So this is literally saying that mild drinks are okay, as barley is used, you know, primarily for beer. And I think some of the hard liquor actually uses, you know, grains as well. So whiskey, Whiskey. I mean, I guess that would not be considered mild drinks.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 45:57 I think beer would be considered more mild. But, yeah, I mean, this is expressly saying that basically beer is okay, but lay off the hard stuff. And it matches, because the church continued to drink for long after the word of wisdom was recorded. And so drink beer. Yeah, so that's not to say that everyone in the church should start chugging beers on Sunday. I'm just pointing out that you'd be within the revelation of God to do so. And as we mentioned earlier, when we talk about the church whitewashing history I want you to look on the right if you're watching. If you're listening, I'll read it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 46:24 But in Joseph Smith's personal journal from June 1, 1844, it says, then went to John P. Greens and paid him. Another. Paid him and another brother $200. Drank a glass of beer at Mosers. Called it William Clayton's. So he's saying he went and dropped off 200 for somebody he owed money to, drank a glass of beer, and then he called it William Clayton's. Now they're going to revise that history in 1902. And I want to read that to you and see if you notice anything missing. Then went to John P. Greens and paid him and another brother 200. Called it William Clayton's.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 46:58 So the church is removing that Joseph Smith drank beer because they don't want members to know he drank beer long after the Word of Wisdom was written.

John Dehlin 47:04 Smoking gun of deception.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 47:06 Yeah.

John Dehlin 47:06 I mean, egregious, outrageous lies.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 47:10 This is a lie. This is intentionally altering the history so that members don't realize that Moly. Yeah. And this in 1902, just happens to be when the church starts really emphasizing the Word of Wisdom. So isn't it convenient that you change the history just as Joseph Smith did when he changes revelations, when he changes foundational stories? The church after Joseph Smith is doing the exact same thing. Because now that in 1902, they're going to make the Word of Wisdom a very high emphasis, they need to go back and change the history, and that's exactly what they do.

John Dehlin 47:38 Yeah. And again, you just made this point. But, like, you could fault them for doing that, except that they're only doing what they learned from Joseph.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 47:45 Yeah. This is what's been done since. Since the start of the church.

John Dehlin 47:48 But you don't like the historical record. Rewrite it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 47:50 Yep. And just make sure. You try to make sure that people don't realize it. But yeah, it's. It's just. It's a bad.

John Dehlin 47:56 Rewrite it and then it's bad. Punish anyone who mentions it, you know.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 48:00 Yeah.

John Dehlin 48:00 I mean, rewrite it, deny it, and then punish anyone who talks about it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 48:04 And the thing is, and I don't want to go too far on this, but the problem is, and we talked about this with Joseph Smith in the last few weeks, once you show that they're willing to intentionally deceive people by changing, by altering, by creating new stories, you. Then it's hard to trust anything they say. It would be like if you.

clip 48:21 If you're.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 48:21 If your spouse Suspected you of cheating and you're like, no, I wasn't out with another woman. I was at a work meeting at a restaurant. And then they found out you were at a bar or you were at someone's house and you go, I wasn't actually cheating, I just went out to a bar. That person's not going to trust the other stuff you say because you've already shown you're willing to lie to cover your tracks. So I'm not saying that this shows the church is lying about every little thing about the church. I'm just saying you now know they are more than willing to alter their history in order to keep members from understanding what really happened.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 48:50 We showed that with Joseph Smith. We've shown that with the priesthood, the first vision. Last few weeks of these episodes, we've shown that on how they've removed some of the references to treasure digging or they kind of reframe it. And this is another instance where the Church after Joseph Smith is more than willing to alter their own history so that you don't know what happened.

John Dehlin 49:09 Totally. Okay, the next slide. Is the Word of wisdom a credible health code?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 49:14 Yeah, this is just one. We already kinda hinted at it and so we don't need to go too far. But it's just to say it's a very inconsistent revelation when you read it at face value. And so today we're kinda taught that it's like this really consistent, clean and prophetic health code. And it just doesn't really work that way because as you said earlier, there are study after study showing that there are a lot of health effects of mild coffee and tea consumption. And on the flip side, we can show that coffee is way healthier than soda or pop. And BYU now proudly serves Coke and you can go to anywhere.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 49:49 I've never been to Utah actually, but you could see all the videos of people from Utah going to, you know, there's like a soda shop on every corner. Uhm, you can also see all of the people that are in the church who drink Red Bulls and Monster energy drinks, which are way unhealthy compared to coffee and tea. And so while people will say, oh well, Joseph Smith knew that drinking alcohol was bad. Well yeah, and that's good. But again, a lot of people at the time knew that. They knew it was bad because they saw how it made people act and they saw how it could basically dehabilitate people that had a problem with alcohol.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 50:19 Same thing with smoking. They could see the smoke smelled horrible, it was disgusting. And so a lot of the hits that people claim are good. But then you also have to address the fact that there's misses. And when your batting average is still, at best, say, 500, that's not really a profit seer in Revelator. That's what anyone else in that timeframe was doing in the temperance movement. So it's just to say it's inconsistent, it's contradictory. And then when you look at the way that revelation was written compared to how it is today, there's no way to reconcile it all in a way that makes it seem like it's logical from God, who, again, could see that the lost 116 pages would be lost and create a second set of plates, who, we are told could know thousands of years ago that Joseph, son of Joseph, was going to translate the Book of Mormon and yet can't give us a word of wisdom in a way that makes sense in 2020 or even in, like, 1900.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 51:10 And so all of that, combined with the fact that there's no unknown deals, details such as boiling water, all of this is a huge tell that this is not a credible health code, nor is it a revelation from God.

John Dehlin 51:22 All right, makes sense. Next slide. Is the church did not make the Word of Wisdom a commandment until 1919, and this is something that Mormons are not told.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 51:33 Yeah, this is something I certainly wasn't aware of.

John Dehlin 51:35 Generally speaking.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 51:36 Yeah, generally speaking. And so the church did not require the word of Wisdom to be obeyed as a temple requirement question until 1919. And I believe in 1902, they began making it more of an emphasis. So I think in 1902, there was kind of like that open idea that you could be rejected for it. And I think in 1919, it was the first year it was an actual temple recommend question. And, you know, the thing is, the Word of wisdom itself specifically goes out of its way to tell you it's not a commandment. It says to be sent by greeting, not by commandment or constraint.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 52:07 So until 1851, it wasn't considered a commandment. And then Brigham Young started to kind of come down on people who were abusing it in bad ways, like if you were drunk a lot and all that. Brigham Young, though, owned and profited from the Salt Lake City distillery. Church members continued to drink and smoke for 70 years after the revelation was recorded. And that's why we're left with a revelation.

John Dehlin 52:30 Not just church members, but actual apostles.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 52:32 Yeah, leaders. Yep.

John Dehlin 52:33 Leaders, revelators continued to, you know, smoke, drink alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, etc.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 52:39 Yep. Yeah. I mean, so it was. It was widespread use. And, you know, it's just to point out that this was not adhered to by even the leaders of the church until you got to the 1920s when it became a temple recommend question. And, you know, it's just. To me, it's an interesting thing, and I know it lines up really well with prohibition. I've heard, you know, back and forth as to why that is, and we'll get to more of that later. But, yeah, I mean, we're talking 80 years basically before this is considered. 80 plus years before this is a temple recommend question. And it's just not the way it's taught today because, you know, this is not a commandment. It literally says it's not a commandment, but just kind of like a warning or like a guideline.

John Dehlin 53:20 Yeah. And on the one hand, I think I can hear Mormons and Mormon apologists saying, well, that's a feature, not a bug. The Mormon Church believes in ongoing revelation. And if Joseph Smith says that, it's, you know, just not by way of commandment, but just, you know, by, you know, by suggestion. But then a future prophet changes it. You should always pay attention to the most current prophet because God is, you know, it's a. It's an ongoing unfolding restoration, and God, you know, will change things depending on the time, and sometimes he'll improve things. So, you know, on the one hand, that's what I think the church is going to say. On the other hand, Jesus, freaking Jesus, the son of God, drank wine, for heaven's sakes, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 54:04 Yeah.

John Dehlin 54:04 It's like Joseph Smith drank wine the night before he was martyred. What? The fetch. Why in the fetch would it be something that would keep you out of the temple when. Which keeps you from gaining the ordinances that you need for salvation, including your endowment, your washings and anointings, including your temple marriage, including the temple marriages of your siblings or your children, your own children. Why would it be elevated to something that literally means spiritual life and death if Jesus and Joseph themselves partook in all those things? Yeah, I mean, it doesn't make sense.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 54:42 It doesn't make sense. And, you know, I've joked before that, you know, Jesus couldn't. He would be reported for honor code violations of BYU because he had a beard. He drank. I mean, it's just.

John Dehlin 54:51 He wore sandals.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 54:52 He wore sandals. It's just, it's silly. And I. The thing is, like, you know, you just, you look at the way, you know, what you said about the apologetics, and they'll Say, you're right. They'll say, we believe in ongoing revelation. And my response would be, then where's the revelation? Why can the leaders not say, you know, I received revelation. I wrote it down on the yellow pad, as Russell Nelson claims, and it said, you know, my beloved, you know, you know, servant.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 55:19 I don't know. I can't remember who. Who was the. The prophet when they first started doing it. But, you know, the time has now come for my previous revelation to be a commandment. You have now had plenty of time to prepare for this, because I know one of the arguments is that, you know, when they came up with the word of Wisdom, a lot of people were drinking and smoking, and it was too much to ask of them to give that up, even though they ask that when missionaries come to people's doors asking you to convert and give up your coffee, tea, smoking, all that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 55:46 And so I guess I would just say it's like one of those things, like, where's the paper trail? Because this just comes out of thin air as far as the reinterpretation of it. Why is there not another revelation? Why don't they change DNC to fit it then? I mean, I just. I feel like it's a great apologetic. It just doesn't work. When you look at the pattern of how this stuff has happened before with Joseph Smith, they're just pulling this one out and redefining it in a way, as we'll talk about later, that really takes it away from being a law of health and more just a law of obedience, because there are healthy things that the church is forbidding and a lot of unhealthy things that the church seems fine with. And it's just inconsistent.

John Dehlin 56:24 Yeah, it's inconsistent. And that inconsistency has caused a lot of pain and suffering over the years.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:32 And you hear stories. It might be John Larsen. I think he did a. I think one of his episodes. It might be him, might be someone else. And they did their mission in Japan and they were saying, people in Japan drink tea. And so you're going to these people and tell them to join your church. And they're like, well, I don't want to give up tea. And it's like, well, you have to, because this is the rule. And I mean, it's just unnecessary because, like, there's so many health benefits to tea. To tell someone they're not worthy of being in the temple because of that is just.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:59 It's silly. And it's. It, again, it just shows that this is not something coming from God. Or it shows that God is really inconsistent and not a good. Or, or measure of health. Or I guess you might have some people say, which I've also heard that in time, science is always wrong. So in time we'll see that coffee and tea are actually really dangerous. But again, I, I don't think that's an argument you would make unless you had to. To defend a policy of the church.

John Dehlin 57:24 Yeah, I just think it makes zero sense that early church leaders were. And Jesus himself.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 57:31 Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

John Dehlin 57:33 And, or using tobacco. And yet an investigator in Chile who's just learning about the church is going to be prevented from baptism because he has a cup of coffee which is completely healthy and, and culturally appropriate.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 57:48 Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin 57:49 And in some ways the only way to get clean water. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 57:52 Yeah. That's another thing. I mean, I know today in America we're blessed that we don't have to worry about that, but there are third world countries where drinking coffee is a good way to make sure you get rid of any of that stuff. And yet in the church, you're being told you can't do that and also that you need to pay tithing to get out of poverty. It's just. I shouldn't have thrown that last dig in.

John Dehlin 58:09 But.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 58:09 Yeah, it's just, it's the inconsistency of it, the way that it just, it's not logical. And I think at some point, I, I mean, I would not be surprised if at some point this, this is relaxed off the temple recommend, because younger, younger members of the church, you see them all the time online, drinking coffee, drinking iced coffee, not wearing garments. I mean, there are things in the church that they're losing a little bit of control over, and I would not be surprised to see them loosen this. But until then, yeah, it's very inconsistent.

John Dehlin 58:36 Coffee shops are popping up all over Provo, and yeah, BYU students are there all the time.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 58:41 There's a reason.

John Dehlin 58:41 Yeah, they're getting coffee, but they're calling it hot chocolate.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 58:44 I've seen a lot of people online who are drinking coffee. And people will reply to them online and say, you're, you're Mormon. You can't do that. And they say, no, this one's between me and God. I don't have to, you know, have to tell my bishop about him. Like, yeah, which that's true. It is not between you and your bishop. But you're just seeing that this is not sustainable.

John Dehlin 59:00 I'm also going to say that I know at least one former, you know, General slash area authority in modern times, let's just say in the past 20 to 30 years, who drank alcohol as a general area authority. I know this because, you know, family members of his told me that, yeah, there's. There's this kind of unwritten, kind of separate set of rules that the more wealthy or elite Mormons live by, where they know that what they drink in the privacy of their own homes is their business.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 59:32 Yeah.

John Dehlin 59:33 And they get to play by separate rules, you know.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 59:35 Yeah. And, you know. Yeah, it goes. And like I said, I've seen. I. I know people who drink alcohol and they do it in a way that they justify as, like, being a medical thing to help them sleep or to help them, you know, people get around it. Like, oh, if I have a glass of wine, it's necessary to help me sleep. It's like, yeah, okay, sure.

John Dehlin 59:49 Well, like you said, beer is explicitly allowed.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 59:52 I know every. Like I said, everyone on, you know, should grab a beer. I mean, I'm. I'm. I. I've had it, like, once in my life, and I thought it tasted disgusting, but that's probably because I was raised not to drink it. And so after I. Yeah, I didn't like it. But that being said, I probably should because it's. It's totally allowed. And I would be more in with the word of wisdom than a lot of other people.

John Dehlin 1:00:11 So, you know, for the record, I've never tried any form of tobacco or alcohol in my life. And I'm 53. Yeah, that's just me.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:00:18 So, you know, and the thing is, and we don't need to get on a tangent about this, but you mentioned Diet Coke or Coke earlier. So I've got. I've got Diet Coke in here because I have developed this insane sweet tooth as part of being in the Mormon Church because you can't drink coffee, which is bitter. You can't drink beer, which is bitter. And so I never tried beer until after I kind of lost belief. And we were at a work function and someone kept asking me, and so finally I just. I took it and I took a sip. I'm like, this is disgusting. And so I'm carrying it around with me, and I don't want to drink it because it's gross.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:00:45 And, yeah, that was pretty much the beginning and the end of that. I know a lot of people say it's acquired and it's not really important to this episode, but, yeah, it is funny that being in the church and not being able to drink coffee and stuff, it really does make A lot of people have more of a sweet tooth, which is why you see those soda shops everywhere. And that's not a great thing. I kind of wish I did drink coffee because I think it'll be a lot healthier for me than drinking Coke.

John Dehlin 1:01:07 So. Yeah, and I hope you don't get to this, but given the. Given the massive, you know, like. Like heart disease in the United States kills infinitely more people than probably any drug, certainly more than marijuana, coffee, or tea, and probably more than even tobacco. And yet there's nothing in here about refined sugars, nothing about saturated fats, nothing about cheeseburgers, nothing about French fries, nothing about hydrogenated vegetable oil, or how amazing would that have been if Joseph had received a revelation about saturated fats and hydrogenated oils, or even cheeseburgers and French fries or milkshakes long, long, long before those words even came into our vernacular.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:02:04 Yep. Or, don't use pesticides on your crops, or, you know, just, you could go on all day. And that's the problem, is everything is completely in an 1830s mindset. There's nothing else in we're beating a dead horse. But it's for a good reason, because you have to illustrate just how dated this revelation is.

John Dehlin 1:02:21 The heart disease one itself is just so significant. Okay, let's go to the next slide, which is more video of what the Word of Wisdom really serves as in Mormonism. This is Boyd K. Packer, my friend.

The Word of Wisdom as a Social and Obedience Marker

clip 1:02:35 But Latter Day Saints see the Word of Wisdom as more than just a health code. Adherence to the Word of Wisdom not only teaches members how to control appetites and guard their health is also part of what makes him eligible for temple worship and promises spiritual benefits. Most importantly, following the Word of Wisdom helps engender greater receptivity to personal revelation through the Spirit of the Lord. As Boyd K. Packer, an Apostle of the Lord in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, once said, the fundamental purpose of the Word of Wisdom has to do with revelation.

clip 1:03:09 Someone under the influence can hardly listen to plain talk. How can they respond to spiritual promptings that touch their most delicate feelings? As valuable as the Word of Wisdom is as a law of health, it may be much more valuable to you spiritually than it is physically.

clip 1:03:26 So let's review. What is the Word of Wisdom and why is it important to Latter Day Saints? The Word of Wisdom is a revelation. In it, the Lord promises that those who follow his guidelines will have better health.

clip 1:03:39 But he also promises greater happiness, wisdom, and spiritual blessings, too. Most of all, the Word of Wisdom shows us that God loves us. He wants us to be healthy and spiritually receptive to his words. Now you know.

John Dehlin 1:03:53 All right, well, now we know. I'm just going to say really quickly, obviously we've already talked about the fact that many of the early saints were under the influence of alcohol when the Kirtland miracles happened. So obviously there's a problem with their statement that you can't have spiritual experiences when you're under the influence of some of these things. Certainly coffee and tea aren't going to keep you from having spiritual experiences, or I believe in tobacco. I'm also just going to say that for my friends that have tried psychedelics, you know, especially magic mushrooms or peyote or ayahuasca, they all universally tell me that psychedelics have provided them with the most spiritually uplifting experiences of their life, hands down. And so I just think that's flatly wrong, what they just said in that article.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:04:43 Yeah, it's just like I said, it's just so inconsistent. It doesn't add up. It doesn't match what the reality is. And these are, you know, and Boyd Kid Packer in his quote is, you know, again, an ordained, you know, prophets here and revelator. And he's just saying stuff that just doesn't line up with what the text of the Word of Wisdom is and the utilization of it, you know, to what you said earlier, like coffee makes you more receptive to what you're doing. I mean, there can't tell you times you hear people drinking coffee at night because they have to get a project done for school or to focus.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:05:10 I know people, actually, I know people who are Mormon who get coffee when they do road trips because it helps them focus on the road because they want to make sure that they stay awake and alert. So I would argue in a lot of ways that helps you focus a lot more than maybe drinking a crap ton of sugary drinks would do. And, and I think that really gets down to the point of it, which is this is just not at this point a law of health. It's a law of obedience. It's about getting members to rally around something that is something that requires you to do something you might not want to do, to stick out a little bit and to kind of obey the leaders of the church in order to get the prize, which is the endowment and your temple recommendations.

John Dehlin 1:05:54 Yeah. All right, so what is the Word of Wisdom then, if it's not necessarily a health code given by Revelation?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:06:01 Yeah. And so we've kind of hit all these points at this point. But at the end of the day, we have health studies showing coffee and tea have tons of benefits. And we have no consistency when it comes to banning coffee because it's a hot drink, but then also banning iced coffee as a cold drink.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:06:15 Because the word of wisdom is really clear that you can not have hot drinks, but has nothing about cold drinks and it's not about caffeine. So it just shows there's just this subjectiveness about how it's being used that is just not really consistent or logical. And to that point, it kind of to me screams that since the 1919 being a temple recommend question really shows that this is about a law of obedience. And you know, we'll get to a little bit, but I think there's reasons why they went hard on that why when they did. And I think it's just about, you know, again, being willing to obey what the, what the leaders want you to do.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:06:53 And you know, it's a lot of times they'll say it's, it's not about, you know, us, it's not about, it's about you being willing to sacrifice for God. And I think this is another instance where it makes no sense from a logical standpoint except that it's keeping you in tune with what the leaders want you to do, which of course is in their minds what God wants you to do. But of course that's always through the filter of the leadership.

John Dehlin 1:07:14 Yeah, and this is always a difficult area to trot. But I think it's important to mention Stephen Hasson is the world's expert in cults or high demand religions. And he has put together what he calls the BITE model, which is an acronym to represent signs of a high demand religion or a cult. Because nobody who's in a cult thinks they're in a cult. They just think they're in the one true way or in a really great organization or God's true church. But the B in the BITE model stands for behavior. Whenever a organization or religion starts controlling your behavior in unreasonable or excessive ways, whether it's how you dress, whether it's the words you use, whether it's the food you eat, whether it's, you know, particulars around your sexuality, that's, those are warning signs that you're, that you're the member of a cult or a high demand religion.

John Dehlin 1:08:09 And if you go to any high demand religion or cult, you will find very, very strict health codes or controls or rules around food in addition to dress and sex and language and so forth. And so that's not to say that the Mormon church is a cult because it prohibits coffee and tea. It is to say that, you know, when the church starts saying that the word of wisdom is a sign of obedience and not so much health, that's when it starts to veer into control, unnecessary control territory that I think gets it, you know, gets it in kind of that high demand religion or cult territory. That's just how I feel.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:08:55 Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, when I joined, I was still getting out of high school, so I wasn't drinking coffee. I kind of wanted to because that was right around the age when a lot of people did. And then when you go to college and all that. But it wasn't like a huge deal because I wasn't already drinking it. And so that wasn't a huge deal. But then it's like you compound that with, you know, going through the temple and I did not know you had to wear church required underwear. So then all of a sudden you're like, okay, so they're telling you what you can and can't eat, they're telling you what you have to wear, they're telling you how you have to spend your money.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:09:22 And that stuff does add up, you know, a lot of these things. And you know, one of the things that I think is a characteristic of not just what Joseph Smith did, but what the church does today is it's always like, if we can get you to do this, we can get you to do that. And I'm not saying it's evil. I'm just saying if we can get you not to drink coffee and tea and we can get you to give us 10 of your income, then we can get you to wear garments, church required underwear at the temple. And then we, you know, and when you talk about polygamy, well, then we can get you to enter into polygamy because it's always one step further.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:09:50 And I'm not saying that's necessarily what it is. I just feel like there are a lot of steps of obedience you have to take that don't really make sense. And then all of a sudden when you start doing them, it's a lot easier to keep doing them because you're like, well, I'm already in this far, might as well keep going. And, and that is an element of high demand religions in order to keep you loyal to the church. And we'll get to it in a few minutes. But this is something that becomes a huge concern of the church after polygamy has ended. And it almost feels like polygamy was a rallying cry for the church until it had to end, at least for now.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:10:24 And then the word of wisdom comes in as a rallying cry, as a thing that makes you unique and that you have to obey to. And I do feel like there are elements of the church that want that need for obedience because it keeps you more loyal to the church. If you were allowed to wear your own underwear, if you were allowed to drink coffee and tea, it would be a little easier to step away because you don't have a structure that you're so tied to. And I. I don't know if I'm phrasing this in the best way. I'm just saying that because you make it a law of obedience.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:10:54 And I'm not saying the church phrases that way. They. But they do emphasize it's not really as much about health as about you being able to hear the spirit. So it does feel like it's more about, like, you need to obey this so you can be a better member in the church. And I do feel like it does allow behavior patterns that link you to the church even stronger.

John Dehlin 1:11:12 And it becomes, over time, a very important identity marker. Yes, we can have an us versus them kind of mindset as a way to make members feel like they're different. A peculiar people. Yeah, in some ways a better, better people than. Than their neighbors. You know, the bad people who drink and smoke, which is super common in the Mormon context. Okay, what is this document? Bill of particulars for me.

How the Word of Wisdom Became Mandatory Policy

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:11:36 So this is a bill of particulars that each family was supposed to take when they traveled from Nauvoo to Utah. And you'll just notice that every member was. Was told to bring coffee and tea with them. And it's just funny because with the word of Wisdom, you would think there'd be no reason to do that. And yet, you know, here we are. And so they do also tell you to bring a gallon of alcohol, but that could very well be for. For cleaning. I don't. I don't know. So I didn't want to highlight that one because I'm not entirely sure if the alcohol. You know, you don't drink straight alcohol. I don't think anyone did.

John Dehlin 1:12:07 But they had isopropyl alcohol on the planes. But maybe.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:12:11 Yeah, I doubt it, too. So I'm trying to give benefit of the doubt. So. But either way, you're at least being told to bring tea and coffee in 1845, which just, again, shows that at this point, you know, the word of wisdom was Just not being obeyed in the way we're expected to obey it today. And I think that's worth noting because of the fact that, you know, they're literally told to use what little amount of space they had to pack stuff with to bring coffee and tea.

John Dehlin 1:12:33 Yeah, that's really interesting and really important. And so now we are. Now we get to my favorite part of the.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:12:40 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:12:41 Apologetics.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:12:42 Yeah. So some apologists argue the reason it was not considered a temple Recommend Question until 1919 or a big focus until 1902 was because church members needed time to get away from the addiction of these substances. But like I said, this is, you know, almost 90 years between when it was recorded and when it became a hard temple recommend question. So anyone using these substances when the revelation was recorded would have been long gone. And so beyond that, you know, we've got Brigham Young declaring it as a commandment in 1851. And a lot of people will say, well, see, it was, you know, it was already a commandment, 1851.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:13:14 It just wasn't enforced as much. But, you know, if you want to use Brigham Young as the, you know, being basically saying he was making a prophetic call here to make it a commandment, then you also have to then look at, you know, the other things that Brigham Young declared as a prophet, such as the ban on those with black skin, Adam, God, blood, atonement. And those are things the church wants no part of. So it is kind of that way that they sometimes cherry pick with Brigham Young to say, see, Brigham Young was teaching this. This amazing idea. And then when you mention all of the other ideas he taught that are disavowed today, they kind of run from it. And so it's just the consistency of. Of using Brigham Young as one of your sources here.

John Dehlin 1:13:51 It's a. It's also a dumb argument because why didn't Joseph Smith live the higher law? Was he not ready yet?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:13:56 Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin 1:13:57 Jesus Christ himself. Why didn't he live the higher law? Why is he drinking wine? Was he not enlightened enough yet? He was supposed to be a perfect human.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:14:05 Yeah, it's just.

John Dehlin 1:14:05 That makes no sense. That's a dumb apologetic argument. It's why Mormon apologists. I hate Mormon apologetic arguments. I think they're dumb.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:14:15 Yeah, I hate the argument, too, because again, it's like, by that logic, do they tell people who want to join the church, yeah, you can take 20 years to get off? No, they're like, you have to stop drinking, you have to stop smoking, you have to stop, you know, Drinking tea and coffee.

John Dehlin 1:14:27 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:14:28 And it's just, it, you know, it's just inconsistent. I, I, I've, I've said it so many times through these episodes. I hate inconsistencies. That's why I hate the loose. Loose versus tight stuff when you jump between the two. Cause it's like you pick a lane and go with it. And if you want to go with this, this idea that, you know, it took 90 years to get used to it, I just, I feel like you're opening up more problems. And it just, the data itself would tell you that you don't need that long. I mean, most people were dead. So, you know, they, yeah, it's, it's nonsense.

John Dehlin 1:14:53 And it's important whenever we note a problematic change that we can always find a historical reason for why the change was made. And that to the next slide. What led to the decision to make the Word of Wisdom a commandment?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:15:06 Yeah. And so I mentioned this earlier, but, you know, one other element that to me would make sense as to why this being kind of a law of obedience, is that the Word of Wisdom became a requirement for Temple recommends shortly after the church released their second manifesto on polygamy. And this caused a lot of uproar because imagine that you went into the new and everlasting covenant of polygamy, and you took plural wives, and you maybe you are a polygamous wife, and you're like, I did this for nothing. You know what I mean? And so there is a lot of.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:15:34 I would imagine there'd be a lot of hard feelings by people who basically realize they could have had a marriage of actual love, and instead they're married to a dude that's 30 years older than them who can't take care of them. And so a lot of the, to me, the timing of the Word of Wisdom being more of a Focus in 1902, and then a temple recommended 1919, kind of seems like maybe it was something that the church leaders were trying to get members to rally around and as you said earlier, identify themselves with. And I think a lot of people say prohibition. And that could be the reason it was really clamped down on, because Prohibition starts in January 1919.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:16:12 And a letter on October 8, 1919, from the first Presidency makes it a Temple worthiness requirement. And so it does make sense that they were trying to line up with prohibition and basically saying, see, we were doing this anyways. Now there's prohibition. We're going to make it official because you can't drink in the US Anyways. But I think because they made it a focus around 1902, it lines up also with the fact that they needed some identity markers because they were losing such a big one with polygamy. And I think those two things really led to the decision to go from it being kind of like a loosely enforced revelation to a temple recommend question. That was a strict commandment.

John Dehlin 1:16:50 Yep. And that makes sense. Yeah. And. And when you read. When you read Gregory Prince's David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism, and I'm sure there are others that pointed this out, prior to David O. McKay, there was kind of a look between Joseph Smith and. And David O. McKay. There was kind of this look of a Mormon prophet. It was, you know, long beard, older, frontier looking guy. And they were pretty much all, almost all of them were polygamists. Yeah, that was, you know, that was, that was the mar. That was the brand of Mormon prophets and of Mormons. But once you lose, once you lose polygamy and once you have to get rid of that and once you're entering into the modern era and you're going to try and change your brand, which I think is literally a fair way to describe what happened, you're going to need a new appearance.

John Dehlin 1:17:49 You're going to need an updated appearance and probably an updated emphasis on the things that you're going to emphasize, not going to be emphasizing that you're not polygamists. So what are you going to be emphasizing? You know, we kind of become McDonald's, IBM, you know, all American, Donny Marie Osmond, sort of people like home, like Richard Cunningham, Happy Days Beaver and Wally Cleaver, Stepford wives, kind of 1950s America. That's what our new brand becomes. And being squeaky clean in terms of like alcohol and drugs and tobacco and short hair and no beard, that becomes the new Mormon brand. And it pretty much starts with David O. McKay and then it continues forward. But it, but it also starts with the end of polygamy. Yeah, that's a really important observation.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:18:43 Yeah, it's a big transition period for them because they're trying to find. I mean, you lose one of the main things you're rallying around and you have to find other things to hold on to. And I honestly think that has as much to do with this prohibition, because it really does. It's around 1902 when they start making. They start rejecting people for temple recommends at that point. But it appears 1919 is when it was a firm question. And so.

John Dehlin 1:19:04 And again, that's so fascinating that just like the temperance Movement. Yep. Sort of was the impetus to the 18 or 30 whatever revelation. It was the prohibition movement that was the impetus to the making it. The Word of Wisdom is a command.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:19:19 Nothing, you know, it's one of those things. I think I mentioned the slide, didn't say it. But nothing seems to alter the church policy and doctrine more than outside events. You know, the same thing with the 1978 lifting of the ban. It was because at some point it becomes socially unacceptable.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:19:32 And, you know, changing the introduction to the Book of Mormon came across because, you know, DNA events told them that the Book of Mormon's claims were not backed up by science. And so, yeah, it's. Outside events are the greatest.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:19:45 The thing that leads to the most revelation is when you have outside pressure. It's the same thing with the November 2015 policy that was revelation according to Russell Nelson. And three and a half years later, because the social pressure was just so strong and the member, the young members especially were not having it, God gave Russell Nelson another revelation to remove it. And yeah, it's, it's just it every time you can, you can see the fingerprints, you can see the path that these things taken. They're very common threads across all of them.

John Dehlin 1:20:13 Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so next slide is compare the words of the Word of Wisdom versus today's use.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:20:20 Yeah, and so we just want to kind of look at how the Word of Wisdom declares basically health status or health data points. So they say wine and other strong drinks should not be used except in the case of the sacrament as well as the washing of the body. So obviously that's been changed because there's no more wine used for the sacrament. Tobacco should not be used by men, but as an herb for bruises and all sick cattle. I'd like you to. I mean, I've asked this before. Some people swear that they do use tobacco for bruises and for sick cattle. And I have just not seen that as any kind of a, you know, best practice kind of a thing.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:20:56 Hot drinks, which would mean soup, hot chocolate, coffee and tea are not for the body or belly. And again, think of how it's used today. They declare that as coffee and tea. But you can drink hot chocolate, you can eat hot soup, you can eat hot stews. I mean, all of these things that are kind of liquidy, hot things are herbal tea. Herbal tea is okay. Yeah. So it's, it's very, very inconsistent. All herbs and fruits are ordained to be used by God and should be used with prudence.

John Dehlin 1:21:23 And so my friends want to say that cannabis should Be.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:21:26 Yeah, I know that. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:21:27 It's true wisdom. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:21:29 I mean, it's true. And that's the thing, you know, right

John Dehlin 1:21:31 there is telling you mushrooms are organic. Yep. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:21:34 Yeah. I mean, so basically what this, what this revelation is saying is if it's growing, it's from God and should be used with prudence. And so, you know, the. That's how I say at the end, isn't marijuana and herb and. It is. And meat is to be eaten sparingly only in times of winter or of cold or famine.

John Dehlin 1:21:50 That one's ridiculous. Because, Morgan, heavy, heavy, heavy meat eaters.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:21:54 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:21:54 Certainly not only eating meat in times of winter, cold or famine.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:21:59 Nope.

John Dehlin 1:21:59 I just went to Maddox Steakhouse in Brigham City, Utah for my birthday last week and there was literally a 45 minute wait. Yeah, they were, they were pretty much all Mormons there at Maddox. You know what I'm saying?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:22:11 Yeah. I mean, it's.

John Dehlin 1:22:12 It's middle of summer. Right. So why is that not keeping people out of the temple?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:22:17 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:22:17 People that eat meat not in winter or times of famine, why aren't they all kept out of the temple? It's totally arbitrary. It is.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:22:23 That's the thing.

clip 1:22:24 It's.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:22:24 It's very subjective. Arbitrary is a good word. It's just, it's rough. And all grain is to be used by both man and beasts and barley for all useful animals. And for mild drinks, beer and also as also other grain. And so, you know, by the wording of DNC 132, the church should allow any iced coffee or iced tea drinks, beer or wine for the sacrament. Furthermore, as I said a number of times now, this is being written without any foresight or prophetic knowledge. It doesn't mention boiling water. It doesn't mention overabundance of sugary foods. Doesn't mention anything about energy drinks that are going to stimulate your body.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:22:58 It doesn't mention that all foods should be taken out of with moderation. And like we said, I mean, if you want to read this, as the revelation is, as the word of God is, marijuana is an herb that apparently is ordained to be used by God with prudence.

John Dehlin 1:23:11 So on that one, to the church's credit, apparently if marijuana use or cannabis use is legal in a state, I haven't heard of them going after people for using cannabis, I would love. Yeah, it's kind of new.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:23:25 What I was just gonna say, I would love to see someone in a state where it's legal go to their temple recommend question and say, I've been using Marijuana, whether it's smoking it or through gummies or brownies or whatever, you can tell I don't use it because I don't quite know the terminology well, but tell their bishop that and then have their bishop go, oh, you're cool. I'm telling you right now.

John Dehlin 1:23:46 That's what happened. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. Number one, I've never tried cannabis either. But number two, there are bishops that allow cannabis use.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:23:56 Really?

John Dehlin 1:23:56 It's just. But that's where Bishop Roulette comes in.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:23:59 Well, yeah, there is always that.

John Dehlin 1:24:00 The Church doesn't dare state that publicly. And of course, they tried to fight and beat down the cannabis legislation that Utah citizens passed. And they've, you know, in some ways made it really hard for people to even get cannabis. But, but overall, if you get the right Mormon bishop, he's totally okay with cannabis.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:24:20 I almost want to send an email to like church headquarters if I can find a good contact and just ask them.

John Dehlin 1:24:25 Them.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:24:25 Yeah, because I, I actually think I might just. Because I'm curious to see if I could get a response to that. Because I guarantee you that is not something that they would, would ever say out loud is okay. So I'm curious.

John Dehlin 1:24:36 Sure. There's. If it's. I know for sure. I'm pretty sure that the Church has made some sort of statement saying if it's prescribed by a doctor.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:24:45 Well, yeah, that's, That's, Yeah, that's different.

John Dehlin 1:24:47 Then. Medical cannabis is okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:24:48 Yeah. I'm talking more like, you know, in a lot of states now, it's recreational, is legal. So I'm just curious on that because I, I guarantee I'm going to try to do. I'm gonna send him an email and just send them, quote DNC89.

John Dehlin 1:24:59 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:25:00 And say under, under the word of wisdom, this is allowed. And my state now has it legal for recreational use. Is this allowed? And I'm just curious to see. I know what they're going to say, but I just want to see because there's no way that's Church policy whatsoever.

John Dehlin 1:25:12 There's no chance the Church doesn't like to have policies.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:25:15 No, that, that's, that's 100, Bishop Roulette. Because I know there are a lot of bishops where people say, I drink coffee. And he's like, they don't. I don't care. That's fine. You know, I mean, I think a lot of bishops understand how unimportant it

John Dehlin 1:25:25 is, but by not including it in the temple recommend questions, by not explicitly asking about marijuana. They're kind of. Yeah, it's kind of a don't ask, don't tell.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:25:33 Well, they, yeah, and they did that when they changed that temple recommend question on garments. Right. Because a lot, a lot of the young members are like, hey, it doesn't say I have to wear it day and night. It just says as, as they promised in the temple. So they, they'll wear it when they go to church, they'll wear it when they go to temple and then they're done. Which I think is a great, great thing. I think garments are awful, but you know, you talk to a member who went through the temple with, you know, more than five or six years ago and they'll tell you, oh, the real Mormons wear garments 24 7. So as we talked about earlier, it is definitely a culture identifying kind of thing. So anyways, yeah, let's go to the next slide about.

Vilifying Members Who Don't Comply

John Dehlin 1:26:04 Yeah, Vilifying abusers of the Word of Wisdom.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:26:08 I just, you know, I pointed this out earlier and I know it's splitting hairs and so we don't have to spend much time on this. It's just when they talk about conspiring men with evil designs, it's just so cartoony and Disney esque to put this image of these four guys smoking cigars with counting money. And I just, you know, again, they show at the beginning of this thing that people who were at the school of prophets that are smoking cigars just looking so super scholarly and, and it's just this is how they speak of the 99 percent of the world that ignore the Word of Wisdom.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:26:40 You know, it's like, I realize that they don't view everyone who's not in the church as conspiring evil designs and all that, but it just, it feels like just such a cartoony us versus them thing. And these videos are meant for, I think, you know, I think they're meant for outsiders who just are curious, but I think they're more meant for members in the church who are looking for a library of videos to explain topics. And I just think it's such a crappy way to, well, define other people.

John Dehlin 1:27:07 To me, there's something more insidious behind this slide that I thought you might mention, and that's that when you're the average Mormon growing up, you really, really do believe that people that smoke tobacco or, or chew tobacco or drink alcohol or do drugs are bad people. Yeah. And, and I, I know that people are going to take umbrage at me saying that, but every one of Our kids is like, I don't know if I want to uncle so and so over because he smokes. And aren't people who smoke bad? You know, I remember when my, my oldest sister married a non member. She was a smoker at the time.

John Dehlin 1:27:46 And then she marries a non member who also was a smoker. And then once she stopped smoking, he kept smoking. And it was always a thing we talked about. It was like maybe never to his face, but behind his back it's like, does, does he still smoke? He still smokes. Oh, well, you know what I mean? Yeah. And we view people who drink, you know, as being partiers and as being, you know, drunkards and people who do drugs as druggies and stoners. And even more importantly, we view ourselves as better than other people that partake in those things. And it literally is just an identity way to feel superior. If any Mormon argues with me about that being the common Mormon view, I, I would be willing to have that conversation.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:28:35 No, And I actually get it because when I joined the church, my mom still smoked and obviously they weren't members. And I remember hearing it in church when they talk about, oh, you know, when you don't obey the word of wisdom, you can't get the goodness of God. You can't feel the spirit. You can't. And I just remember it killed me because I'm like, no, I know my mom's a good person and that does not change who she is as a person. Obviously I didn't like it because I was afraid it was going to cause health issues for her. But at the same time, I didn't think less of her as a person.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:29:04 I just didn't like it because I was afraid. And, you know, the church will come out and they'll say, listen, what we're talking about right here, that's culture. That's not us. But then this is a video produced by the church. And so you want to say, it's not us, it's just the culture. But then it's right in their videos.

John Dehlin 1:29:21 It's again, this is spoken at general conference, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:29:24 Yeah. And this one, I think a lot of people, if, if you're involved in listening a podcast or stuff, you've seen this, but this is from Julie Beck, I believe, General conference. And she's talking about what happens when you drink a cup of coffee and

John Dehlin 1:29:38 I think are pre approved.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:29:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah. This.

John Dehlin 1:29:43 Approved by the church.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:29:44 This is not someone going rogue. This is fully approved as a way to tell people what happens when you drink a cup of coffee.

John Dehlin 1:29:49 So this seems outrageous and it's not totally true.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:29:52 She was the daughter of faithful pioneer parents who had sacrificed much for the Gospel. She'd been married in the temple and was the mother of 10 children. She was a talented woman who taught her children how to pray, to work hard, and to love each other. She paid her tithing and the family rode to a church together on Sunday in their wagon. Though she knew it was contrary to the word of wisdom, she developed the habit of drinking coffee and kept a

John Dehlin 1:30:20 coffee pot on the back of her stove.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:30:24 She claimed that the Lord will not keep me out of heaven for a little cup of coffee. But because of that little cup of coffee, she could not qualify for temple

John Dehlin 1:30:35 recommend,

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:30:38 and neither could those of her

John Dehlin 1:30:40 children who drank coffee be with her.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:30:45 She lived to a good old age and she did eventually qualify to re enter and serve in the temple. But only one of her 10 children had a worthy temple marriage. And a great number of her posterity, which is now in its fifth generation, live outside of the blessings of the restored gospel she believed in.

John Dehlin 1:31:08 And her forefathers sacrificed so much for that man. That's some powerful coffee. It's keeping generations of people out of eternal salvation. What a crappy plan by Heavenly Father that he's going to keep his own children out of his own presence and out of their own salvation. Basically condemning them to the Mormon equivalent of hell because someone's parents or grandparents drink coffee. It's so ridiculous.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:31:35 Yeah, it's. It's the most emotionally manipulative crap you're going to hear. And it's just one of those things because you've got, you know, I don't know how many people watch General Conference, a couple million who are watching that. And they're watching it with their parents and these kids and they. She has just the right timing on when she cries. I mean, I know that's. I think it's fake for a lot of people. I know some people think it's genuine, and for some people it is. Some people are giving these stories and they do cry, but I feel like they practice this talk enough to where it's rehearsed.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:32:02 And it's just manipulative to tell these people. If you drink one cup of coffee, not only you're risking your own salvation, but you're going to destroy the. The eternal happiness of everyone beneath you. And not only that, she makes sure to mention the. The people that before their ancestors and how strong they were and how you're effectively offending them. I just. It's it's the most manipulative garbage. And this is, you know, I think a microcosm of how the church uses emotional manipulation in their materials. And you know, it's like you said, I mean, what kind of a plan basically screws people for eternity because they drink a drink that's way healthier than a lot of the other stuff they could be drinking.

John Dehlin 1:32:43 It's just, you know, but it's real. Like in 2022, in 2022, if a faithful Mormon drinks coffee or tea, they will not be allowed and admits it. They will not be allowed to attend their own child's wedding. I'm not exaggerating. They won't be able to attend a wedding in 2022 if a, if a Peruvian or a Brazilian or an African 20 year old male or 8 year old child wants to join the church, but they drink coffee, you know, because it's the only way for them to get sanitized water in the morning for a morning beverage. They will be denied baptism. And it's the most ridiculous thing on the planet. Well, not the most, but the most.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:33:35 But it's just, it's, it's silly. And you know, I've said in these overviews a lot, you know, I, I don't want to make fun of this stuff. I don't want to present this stuff in a way that's mocking the beliefs of the church because I don't think that's helpful in any way. It's not constructive. And I'm not trying to make fun of this. I'm trying to point out the fact that this is truly emotionally manipulative and it's based off of a word of wisdom that never even mentions coffee. Like all of this talk that she's talking about here is based on someone that is drinking coffee that's not mentioned the word of wisdom.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:34:08 I mean, maybe she's drinking ice coffee or. It's just all of these things are just so inconsistent and you're, you're telling, you're putting this fear into people that they're going to lose not just their own salvation, but that they're going to destroy their, their kids salvation or their grandkids. And in the process you're going to lose your parents who were faithful. And it's just, it, it creates a lot of stress where it doesn't need to be. And it's, it's just, it's based off of something that is, is, as we've shown today, is just not, not only is it just not illogical, but they're interpreting this revelation in a way that it was never meant to be in the first place.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:34:43 So she's telling people that they're going to. That she has now lost her salvation, or. No, she got it back because she came back, but all of her kids now are not going to be with her in heaven because she drank a cup of coffee from a revelation that says it's not a commandment, but by sent by greeting. Like, it's just. It's very frustrating. But it also, you know, shows, I think, how revelations and how policies and how all of this can function in the church and how it can be so, you know, troubling and painful for people.

John Dehlin 1:35:13 Yeah. Not to mention how in God's mind, letting Joseph Smith through whoever Heber J. Grant, and all the members into the celestial kingdom who all drank coffee, but then, you know, the ones decades later. Yeah, well, Joseph drank coffee, but. But it wasn't a commandment at the time. You drink coffee when it was a commandment, so you're out, but Joseph's in just. Anyway, we're beating that horse. All right, here is the concluding slide.

Overall Assessment and Closing Thoughts

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:35:40 Yeah. And so you mentioned this at the start, but yeah, I don't think the Word of Wisdom is a smoking gun. I mean, if we're ranking the problems of the church, it's certainly not going to be at the very top of it by any stretch. But I think it again shows some of the elements of Joseph Smith's productions that we've talked about in the previous episodes, and that's why I think it's so important. So Joseph Smith uses the surrounding ideas of the temperance movement to create a revelation from God that give his ideas more authority. We've talked about that with the priesthood restoration, we've talked about that with the Book of Mormon, all of that stuff.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:36:08 Same kind of pattern here. We talk about how Joseph Smith was able to create a revelation almost on request from Emma. So she says she's sick and tired of cleaning it. According to the one account from David Whitmer, she says it'd be awful nice if you get a revelation, he gets one like the next day.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:36:25 The Mormon Church has a very redefined explanation from a very clear revelation from God. And so they've redefined God's very clear statement that this is not a commandment, but sent by greeting. And so without having a second revelation to clarify the first, it does feel like they're just arbitrarily changing it. And when they arbitrarily change it, they're still showing that they have some of the same problems with legitimacy of the claims made in the Word of Wisdom that they did back then, which, you know, we've said before, you know, from a scientific, nutritional standpoint, there are some serious problems with the Word of Wisdom, especially when you look at the fact that coffee and tea are healthy and yet we are allowed to drink sugary drinks.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:37:07 Like we've mentioned before, they don't talk about overeating on sugar. We've gone through it all. It's very inconsistent. And the final point, which is one that we see over and over again, is everything Joseph Smith produces is limited and to the knowledge he has at the time he's writing it. There is for someone who is, you know, proclaimed to be, you know, the greatest prophet since, you know, the time of Jesus. He has nothing that he prophesies on that wasn't known in his time and place that has been proven true. And it just shows us that he, you know, doesn't have any foresight. It doesn't have that channeling of a supernatural messenger that can, can warn us of, of anything coming up.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:37:49 And that continues to this day. And I think that pattern is one that at first, I think a lot of people just kind of go, that's not fair. If we kind of look at some of the vague statements, say, man, we can attribute it here, but we can show over and over. And that pattern goes all the way to Russell Nelson, as we've talked about with, you know, Covid and you know, the church not worrying about 9, 11, just stuff in our lifetimes. It's. It's a consistent pattern where they don't know anything that's going to happen beyond today.

John Dehlin 1:38:13 Yeah. Because if they're prophet seers and revelators now, even if the word of wisdom DNC1 DNC89 is outdated, why. Why wouldn't they come up with an updated word of wisdom, add a hundred exactly section 139 or 145 of the D and C, and say, behold, I, the Lord have. Have unfolded a new word of wisdom and then gives. It not only gives us the best advice for the day, but even stuff that we wouldn't have been able to pursue predict later. Anyway, wonderful stuff. Mike, thank you so much for preparing this. It's been a wonderful episode and I should say we've got many more to come.

John Dehlin 1:38:54 You know, we've got race and race and Mormonism, the temple endowment and the Masonry. We've got polygamy, multiple parts on polygamy, Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates, spiritual witnesses and testimonies, doubt, revelations, apologetics, transfiguration of Brigham Young. So, so many cool episodes. And if people want to request important episodes, Mike is willing to write some new essays to accommodate additional essays as well.

Preview of Upcoming Episodes and Acknowledgments

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:39:25 Yeah. And, you know, I'll just say now, since we're heading into this part of the, the episodes, the next six episodes are going to be tough ones. We're going to be doing about race in the scriptures. And then basically the five after that, we've got the temple and then four on polygamy. And I just want to say up front, they're going to be really difficult. They're going to be really tough. I think they're going to be ones that elicit emotional responses if you're a believer or a non believer. And so I just want to say we're going to do our best to make them as calm and neutral as we can.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:39:55 And I just, like, I guess I'm just giving a little bit of a trigger warning on those because I think those are going to be tough for me too, because those are the areas where you can see some things that were done that are just really not good and do not line up with, you know, what you would expect. And so, you know, buckle up, because it's going to be really important episodes, but they're going to be really difficult. So hopefully we can all kind of get through them in a way that is constructive and helpful, because I know that's my biggest concern with these is making them consumable to people who are going through where I was a few years ago.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:40:26 And you, you need the little bit of extra context, and hopefully you need it done in a way that's not going to anger you or anger maybe someone who is still a believer. And so we're going to do it as honest as we can. But just as a warning, these next six are going to be a little bit tougher as far as kind of maybe like the emotional response from them.

John Dehlin 1:40:45 All right. And, you know, Today's essay is LDS discussions.com wow or wow. You can find all these essays@ LDSdiscussions.com it's a great resource. Also, all these episodes have been consolidated in Anchor, but also in Spotify. You can listen to them via Spotify and in Apple, the podcast app, and wherever you get your audio podcasts. And you can also watch them on video in Spotify and you can watch them on YouTube under the Mormon Stories podcast channel under the LDS Discussions) YouTube video video playlist. All this is included in the time codes and show notes along with any other links that we reference today. So, Mike, you're awesome. Thanks so much.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:41:34 Keep up the thanks, everybody.

John Dehlin 1:41:35 Yep.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:41:36 See you guys next week.

John Dehlin 1:41:37 And thanks to everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We hope you enjoy this episode. We couldn't do this without your support. Those of you who donate and make it happen. Also the staff here at the Open Stories Foundation. We couldn't do it without staff support as well. So thanks to the Mormon Stories staff and board of directors and to the donors. If you value this type of content and want to see it continue. If you want to see it, live long and prosper for other people, please become a monthly donor. Go to the MormonStories.org website, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor.

John Dehlin 1:42:08 We're transparent in our finances. Your tax, your donations are tax deductible in the US and all the money we try and dedicate to the mission and the cause of the Open Stories Foundation. So please support us if you can. We appreciate it. Share these episodes with everyone. Give us your comments and feedback. Comment on YouTube, comment on Facebook. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com Follow us on all the social medias including TikTok, Instagram, YouTube and Facebook. And be kind to each other and be good to each other and we'll see you all again soon. On another episode of.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.