Problematic Patterns in Joseph Smith’s Revelations

Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin 0:00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is February 23, 2023. Today we are here to talk about Joseph Smith as part of the LDS discussion series. The topic for today is Problematic Patterns in Joseph Smith's Revelations. We all know as Mormons that we hold Joseph Smith to be a prophet, a seer and a revelator. And it turns out that Joseph Smith created a lot of prophecies, mostly held in what Mormons call the Doctrine and Covenants, which along with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses, complete the Mormon canon that is added to the Bible. And it turns out that as you look at Joseph Smith's revelations and prophecies, you see some patterns that are worth noting. And so today to help us discuss that, we have back for the series our dear friend Mike from LDS Discussions. Hey, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:05 Hey, everybody.

John Dehlin 1:07 Thanks for joining us, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:08 Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin 1:10 And we have Nemo the Mormon from the Nemo the Mormon YouTube channel. Hey, Nemo.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:14 Welcome back.

Nemo 1:14 Hey everyone. Pleasure to be here.

John Dehlin 1:16 For those who are new to this series, we just want to make sure you know that Mike has an amazing website@ LDS discussions.com where he's written 100 plus essays on various aspects of Mormon Church truth claims with the desire, with the intent to be objective, to be thoughtful, to be evidence based, and just to help people who are sincere seekers to try and understand Mormon Church truth claims better. So this is part of a long series that we have examining Mormon Church truth claims. We are somewhere in the 30s, I think this is episode 36. And what we've tried to do to make it so that you can really get value from these episodes is we've included them as their own podcast on Spotify, their own podcast on Apple Podcasts, and its own playlist on YouTube. And you can consume them in sequence and we highly recommend you do that. So these episodes build on each other. That's 35 before this one. And so what you want to do is you want to go back to the beginning, start with episode one. You can watch them again on Spotify or on YouTube or you can listen to them. And you want to watch them all before you get to this one. And by the time you're at episodes 36, I think you're going to have a really good sense of Mormon Church truth claims. And we've got at least a few more dozen to go. We hope you are enjoying this series. And without any further ado, let's bring on our illustrious panel. So, Mike, you want to kind of set up today's episode a little bit beyond what I already did?

Recap of Previous Episodes on Joseph Smith

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:51 Yeah, I mean, this is basically our last episode was on backdating prophecy. So we look at how Joseph Smith, especially when composing the Book of Mormon, was able to backdate things that had already happened in order to give it more credibility. So we talked about how he backdated in the Charles Anton visit with Martin Harris. We talked about how he backdated in, like, his father's dream into Lehi's dream, and was able to backdate in a lot of, you know, more modern Christian beliefs into a text that's supposed to be ancient. And now today, we're going to look at some of the patterns you see in Joseph Smith's revelations during his time as prophet and what those patterns can help us to understand about how Joseph Smith saw the role of Revelation and how he implemented it. And I think it gives us a lot more insight into what Joseph Smith was doing. And at the same time, as you mentioned, we have all of these previous episodes we've done, and we're getting to a point now where we could start to look back at those episodes and say, this is why we covered this topic when we covered this topic. This is why. Because now we're putting those pieces of the puzzle back together, and they're fitting real nicely. And it's because we can now look at all of the groundwork we did and apply it to these episodes we're doing on Revelation. And it gives you a much better understanding of what Joseph Smith was doing and as we go through these episodes, what leaders after him were doing as well.

John Dehlin 4:12 I love it. Nemo, anything you want to add just as an introduction before we jump into today's episode?

Nemo 4:19 Not particularly. I'm just really excited to explore these things, to really take a look at them.

John Dehlin 4:24 Well, we love having you. One quick reminder. The essay for today can be found@LDS discussions.com Revelations Joseph Smith. And you can see that at the bottom left of this opening slide for your reference. If. If you're more of a reader, then you are a listener or a watcher. All right, Mike, should we jump into the slides?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 4:49 Yeah, we can get in and get going. Yeah, this will be a fun.

John Dehlin 4:52 So this slide, we've already covered it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 4:54 Yeah, we just kind of covered it. We just, you know, we're looking at patterns and how these revelations were done, because sometimes when we. We study the dnc, you're just kind of going through them one by one. By one, you're not really thinking necessarily about some of the overall kind of overarching themes. So in this episode, when I did on the website, it was trying to help me to kind of look at the different ways revelations were used. And so these are the patterns I saw. And I'll try to illustrate why I

John Dehlin 5:17 saw them and tell me if it's right. Mike, and you kind of already have alluded to this. One of the reasons we talk about these episodes building is because we, we really do build. And we've, we've done. We've done at least one past episode on the changing revelations, specifically between the Book of Commandments and the Doctrine and Covenants. And it's really important. Something that I never realized, something I was never taught as a Mormon, was that, number one, there was a Book of Commandments before Doctrine and Covenants that was really never discussed much, I don't think. And then the idea that there were. That revelations were added, that revelations removed, that revelations were changed, you know, and that's why that, that past episode that we've done. What was the name of that episode? Mike?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 6:06 I think it was just Changes to the Doctrine and Covenants. I believe it was. It was earlier because we were doing kind of the, the Book of Mormon and some of his other scriptures at the time. And I, I thought it was a good time to do it because we were talking about the priesthood restoration and how that was back, really backfitted into the dnc. And we'll talk a little bit about that here. But yeah, so it's early on. I think we just called it changes to the DNC.

John Dehlin 6:28 Yeah, it's now I'm looking. It's episode 19, changes to doctrine and Covenants. That's going to be a really. Episode, a really important episode to watch, to kind of build. But yeah, I think that will help people appreciate today even more.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 6:43 Yeah, I agree. And that's the thing, like, and we'll. I'll try as we go. There will be areas where I'm like, and this is in a certain episode we did, why that was important, because it now ties into this. Because it really does. These episodes, you know, some of them, especially early on, you might be like, why are we doing an entire episode on the King James language in the Book of Mormon? Or why are we doing an entire episode on the long ending of Mark? And it's because you can now apply those problems, especially in Revelation. As we talked about last week with backdating prophecy, the long, long ending of Mark being in the Book of Mormon is a massive problem because it was not written until after the original Gospel of Mark was written. And so the fact that it's in the Book of Mormon, which is supposed to be an ancient text, is. And like, it just doesn't add up. And we're going to see a lot of those instances in these different episodes on Revelation that we're going to do. And because of those early episodes, it's going to make a lot more sense.

John Dehlin 7:34 Okay, so what, what? It's one thing to think about these revelations in, in isolation as like just God coming to Joseph Smith and saying, Joseph, I've got a new revelation for you. And Joseph's just looking up and saying, okay, God, what's next? And then Joseph writes it down. The way that you've broken out today's slides were kind of grouping different sort of situations or motives that you can look at to see that maybe these revelations weren't necessarily top down, but instead were were Joseph's way to kind of obtain things that he wanted or to deal with situations that. That he was confronted with. At least that's a thesis that we might be entertaining. And the first grouping that we have for today is using Revelation to convince others to submit to requests or just to do things. So basically just using revelations to get other people to do things. So, Mike, let's go ahead and jump into that first slide.

Using Revelation to Coerce and Control Others

Mike (LDS Discussions) 8:40 Yeah, and so this is one of the patterns that really started when I started doing the deep dive. Just popped in really quickly once you start kind of reading them, especially in a more like overall kind of manner. And so we talked about this a lot in our polygamy episode and we're going to talk about it again today. But this idea is that Joseph Smith realizes early on that he can use Revelation with the voice of God, and by doing that, it will convince others to do things that they would not otherwise do if Joseph Smith just asked him to do it. And a really good early example is Joseph Smith is producing the Book of Mormon and he needs Martin Harris to provide the money to get it printed. And of course, at this time, Martin Harris is resisting because that means he has to mortgage his farm. And his wife, Lucy Harris is getting pretty upset because she does not believe Joseph Smith is a prophet. And she's starting to see some of the problems that Joseph Smith brings, as, you know, a former treasure digger who now claims to be translating an ancient text with plates that nobody is seeing at this point. And so Joseph is basically trying to get Martin Harris to give more and more money. Martin Harris is kind of resisting because of the simple fact that again, he's got a wife who's like, you know, this is ridiculous. And so Joseph Smith gets this, this really helpful revelation that instructs Martin Harris to sell whatever he needs to sell and to give the money to Joseph or to face eternal damnation. And so this is from DNC19, and it says, therefore I command you to repent. Repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth and by my wrath and by my anger and your sufferings be sore. How sore you know not. How exquisite you know not. Yea, how hard to bear you know not. And again, I command thee thou, that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but import it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon. So Joseph Smith here, through the voice of God is absolutely. Just tell Martin Harris, if you do not give me the money to. To print the Book of Mormon, I am going to destroy you in ways you can't even imagine. And this is a perfect example of Joseph Smith knowing that using the voice of God would be much more effective to get his desires fulfilled than by going to Martin Harris and saying, martin, we. I need the money to print this. I can't get it. I need you to sell your farm. And guess what? As soon as Martin Harris got this revelation, he mortgaged the farm and got the money to Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin 10:58 Yeah. And you know, if you know anything about Martin Smith and his personality, he really, he really was influenceable, if that's a word. He, he was afraid of God's wrath. And you get the sense that Joseph Smith knew that if Martin believed that God was going to punish him if he didn't give Joseph Smith the money, it all kind of makes sense. And for me, what this really does is it, it sort of serves as an extension of what Joseph Smith learned in his treasure digging years. Because if you, if you've already watched those episodes, you'll know that we really demonstrated this, that probably the biggest aha moment that Joseph Smith had from his treasure digging years is even though he never found any treasure, he. And he got paid to find treasure and he led people around to find treasure over multiple years and he never found treasure. One of the miracles was people still left those treasure digs believing that he had the power to find treasure. Just like when Jehovah's Witness prophets in the past prophesied Jesus was coming on a certain date, or when Rulin Jeffs prophesied that Jesus was coming on a certain date. Oddly, the followers believed more in the Jehovah's Witness prophets or in ruling Jeffs after the failed prophecy than they did before the prophecy was set to be fulfilled. Joseph Smith learned that. That he had the power to get people to believe that he had power, and that was his superpower. And to me, he's likely using that here with Martin now. Nemo, I'd love to get you in and get your analysis on this.

Nemo 12:51 Well, I think perspective is a really important part of this. If you're watching this as someone who's never been Mormon or someone who's just looking at this and going, well, that's clearly just Joseph Smith manipulating him by pretending to be God or saying that God said something to get what he wants, then you have to understand the perspective of someone who believes that Joseph Smith speaks for God. Because once you're someone that believes Joseph Smith speaks for God, then that is gonna have. It's gonna work on you. I don't know. What do you think, Mike?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 13:20 Yeah, I mean, and we'll see it in these next few slides. We're gonna talk about polygamy. And it just shows that Joseph Smith knows that if you go up to someone and you say, hey, I really would like for you to marry and have sex with me as a polygamous wife, they're gonna shriek at you, slap you, and walk away. But if you go up and you say, hey, I don't really want to do this, but hear me out. This sounds crazy, but an angel with a drawn sword came and said if we didn't get together and get married and have sex, that I'm going to be destroyed. So I know you probably might not want to do it, but just remember that if you don't do it, you're going to get me killed. It carries a lot more weight. And you might think I'm being sarcastic, but that's what happens. And so I do believe that Joseph Smith, as we go. And we've got other, other areas here where Joseph Smith is going to use revelation in the voice of God to get out of problems or to get people to do what he needs them to do. He knows just what buttons to push with people to get them to submit to things they wouldn't otherwise do. And the fact is, here's a guy mortgaging his farm immediately after being told through Joseph Smith, claiming to channel the voice of God, that you're going to have punishments you can't even imagine. From the very beginning of the church. Joseph Smith can see how effective this is.

John Dehlin 14:35 Yeah. All right, let's go ahead and go to the next example of Joseph Smith using revelation to coerce. I'm going to say coerce, or to use undue influence to get people to do in effect what he wanted. And the next example is his use of revelations and polygamy.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 14:56 Yeah, and we did. It was a four or five episodes on polygamy. So I don't want to rehash everything here, but this, this carries over so importantly because looking at both the DNC 132 text and the revelations that he's beginning, that he's giving to women, that he's proposing to, gives us a really good illustration of how Joseph Smith is willing to use the voice of God to convince women to just basically forego their moral compass. And the Happiness Letter, which we did a whole episode on which I swear is the most important document on Mormon polygamy you will ever see. This is what Joseph Smith writes in the Happiness Letter. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon, first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him and with every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation. And as we talked about in the Happiness Letter, this paragraph right here, Joseph Smith is using, basically he's channeling the voice of God, though this is not being written as if the Happiness Letter does include language from God. This is kind of being written through Joseph's own words, but he is basically throwing God under the bus here by saying anyone who calls polygamy abominable knows the order of heaven only in part. Whereas in the Book of Mormon, God says polygamy is abominable. So it just shows how Joseph Smith is willing to use revelation and change earlier scriptures or writings in order to get what he needs to get. And in this case, he's trying to convince these women into polygamy. And in doing so, he's saying anyone who calls polygamy abominable knows the order of heaven only in part. And just look at the Book of Mormon and you're seeing God being thrown under the bus and run over a few times because it just completely contradicts. Yet Joseph Smith is going to do that with these women to get what he wants.

John Dehlin 16:46 Yeah, and again, we, we've already covered in past episodes how, you know, Doctrine and Covenants, what was it? Section 101 condemned polygamy before that condemnation was removed and D&C 132 was added, not to mention the Book of Mormon's denunciation of polygamy. So it's like, you know, and. And by the way, the prophet of the Doctrine and Covenants is not God. It's Jesus himself. And I was going to make this point in the last slide as well. Is it really the Jesus you know? Is it Jesus that's going to say, martin Harris, give your money to Joseph or I'm going to punish you sorely? Or is it the Jesus you know that's going to say, hey, polygamy's super awesome. Go for it, Joseph. I do think you have to ask yourself, what's the probability that it's the Prince of Peace, the man who came to fulfill the law, the Son of God, who's extorting people and threatening them and sanctioning polygamy versus another option is just Joseph's own carnal or selfish desires?

Nemo 17:55 I'll throw you a third option, John, and that's that when Jesus is on earth in mortal form, he's very loving, very kind, and does all these Prince of Peacely things when he is the God of the Old Testament and when he is the God of doctrine and Covenants, he's just a real pain to work with. That's what I'd throw towards you is when he's up in heaven, safe away from everyone, that's when he lets that side of himself out.

John Dehlin 18:19 Yeah. And there are other forms of Christianity that say, well, no, the Old Testament was more culture than it was God. And that's basically mortal humans attributing or ascribing to God things that really are just human frailties. And that's how progressive Christians get around. Almost this schizophrenic or the bipolar nature of the God of the Old Testament versus Jesus in the New Testament.

Nemo 18:49 Yeah.

John Dehlin 18:49 And I even think progressive Mormon scholars would. Would do that to try and explain doctrine and covenants, Jesus versus the others. But, you know, but that's just wanted

Nemo 18:58 to throw that in there.

John Dehlin 18:59 That's a good point. Nemo. Yeah.

Nemo 19:00 This is the same guy that said, you can't wear mixed fabrics lest you be smitten. So, you know.

John Dehlin 19:05 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 19:11 No, that's not. Yeah, we can go to the next slide.

Revelations Targeting Specific Women

John Dehlin 19:13 Okay, so the next slide is Joseph Smith's Revelation to Nancy Mirinda Hyde.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 19:19 And we, We've.

John Dehlin 19:20 We've covered this, I think, in Is

Mike (LDS Discussions) 19:22 this a Happiness Letter episode.

John Dehlin 19:24 This is episode 28 of LDS discussions polygamy part 5 or the happiness letter, but we're going to review it here again.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 19:32 Yeah, it's just because this is important to show how Joseph Smith is using revelation. And so basically, Joseph Smith is going to give a revelation to Nancy and Miranda Hyde. And this is going to happen after he sends her husband, Orson Hyde, off on a mission to Jerusalem, and he basically puts her in this printing office to live there. And he gives her this revelation which says, and let my handmaid, Nancy Mirinda Hyde, hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph in all things whatsoever he shall teach unto her. And it shall be a blessing upon her and upon her children after her unto her justification, saith the Lord. And remember that when he says whatsoever he shall teach unto her, right after that, he's going to start teaching her the, you know, the principles of polygamy, and he's going to take her as a polygamous wife. And more importantly, he is going to use Nancy Miranda Hyde to help him recruit other younger wives, such as bringing Nancy Rigdon to try to get Nancy Rigdon to Mary Joseph Smith as well. And so this revelation carries a lot of power because he's telling Nancy, you're going to listen to Joseph in everything he teaches you, and he's doing it in the voice of God. So of course she's thinking, this is what God wants. And so when he brings polygamy, she not only marries Joseph, but she's willing to go out and help recruit. And recruit might seem like a loaded word, but she's going out and bringing women and trying to convince them that marrying Joseph Smith is the thing that God wants. And so this revelation is being given to Nancy to accomplish that goal and to get someone to do something they wouldn't otherwise do. Because I'm pretty sure if Joseph went up to Nancy Miranda Hyde and said, hey, your husband's on a mission and I'd really like to marry you while he's gone, and I also need you to help me marry other women. It wouldn't carry the same weight. And so this is the power of revelation to especially the members that he's had time to really. I don't know what words you want to use, but conditioned to trust him as the prophet of God.

John Dehlin 21:24 Yeah, I've said this a lot, and Nemo, I want to hear your thoughts on this. I've said this a lot on Mormon Stories podcast, but there's a part of me, even though I love the First Amendment of the US Constitution, there's a part of me that feels like there should be limits to free speech. And one of them, you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, which is the classic thing you learn in Political Science 101. Another is, I speak for God. To me, that's too much power for any one human to hold. And the reason I say that is because of all the historical abuses, whether it's Jim Jones, David Koresh, Warren Jeffs, you know, it's anytime a man, it's almost always a man claims to speak for God. What he ends up saying is, give me power, give me your women, and give me your money. And so there's this conflict of interest, I think, when Joseph Smith is telling these women, oh, I'm just reporting to you what God says. And God tells me, you're supposed to have sex with me and marry me. But it's God, not me. I'm just God's humble servant. That's a problematic conflict of interest. And it's really hard for me to distinguish between Jim Jones, David Koresh, Keith Ranieri, Warren Jeffs, and Joseph Smith, because at the end of the day, it's about power, sex, and money, at least in terms of the results of revelations like this one to Nancy Marinda Hyde, Nemo. I'm curious if you've got other insight on that.

Nemo 22:56 I just. I think you have to. You only have to look at the long history of people doing things they wouldn't have otherwise been done because they were told something to the effect of God has a special, special job for you to do. And when people get told God has a special task for you to do, they'll do things they wouldn't otherwise do. Whether that's helping groom women like Nancy Miranda Hyde. And in that scenario, whether it's blowing themselves up, whether it is, you know, attacking other people they wouldn't have otherwise fought violently with, whether it's taking people's land they wouldn't have otherwise taken, it almost always ends up in the suffering of another because they're doing something they wouldn't have ordinarily done because someone told them, well, God's got a special task for you because it, it seems to remove the responsibility of the person doing the asking onto this supreme being that no one can really challenge. And people have been taught not to challenge. So you, you've got this kind of delocalization of responsibility for the thing that you're asking the person to do. They don't view you as being the one asking them to do it. They think this deity is asking through that person. So you don't blame the other person for asking you to do an abhorrent thing. So not their fault. It's not your fault. It's some unquestionable and untouchable being that can't be tried in a court of law. Yeah, that's my thoughts.

John Dehlin 24:07 And what I think is tricky is that people need, they desperately need a sense of identity, a sense of meaning and a sense of purpose. And so when they're. So when they're needing that, then they seek prophets or people who talk to God. And because clearly God's not talking to them. So if somebody will insert themselves between those needy people and a supposed being and say, hey, I'm talking to God, and here's what God wants for you, it's a very vulnerable situation to be in that people who don't have the best intentions can kind of take advantage of Nemo. And I think that's what Joseph Smith is doing. Martin Harris or Mirinda Hyde were eager to please God. And then Joseph Smith says, well, I know how you can please God. Right?

Nemo 25:00 And so all Joseph Smith's got to do is convince them that he speaks for God. That's all he's got to do. And then everything else is just God's fault, essentially, because they want to please. Exactly. So they want to please God. Well, okay, I might dislike Joseph Smith, but I am convinced that he speaks for God. So therefore I'm going to do the thing that God wants. It's not about him, it's about God.

John Dehlin 25:21 Yeah, very good. Yeah. All right, Mike, should we go to the next slide?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 25:25 Yeah. You know, one thing I'll, I'll, I'll point out is something. No, no, just to, to piggyback off what you just said is. A lot of what you just said is true, but it also, to me, and this is something that didn't really dawn on me until after I started doing the deep dive. Because you start looking at it from a different lens. But to me, it shows how, like, impotent the Mormon version of God is because you have, you have all of these people that are being told to do these things from God, but God, who is supposed to be this all powerful being that is everywhere, that knows everything that's going to happen until the end of time, can't be bothered to go to Martin Harris and say, hey, Martin, I know this is a lot to ask, but I need you to mortgage your farm or to go to these women in polygamy and say, this seems crazy, I know it, but Joseph Smith is, is my prophet and I'm going to need you to marry him. But instead, it's always through one person. And that to me is obviously a red flag that it's not coming from God. But more importantly, it just shows that if God is really all powerful and why is God unable to communicate with anyone except for one person? It really does point to the most obvious response being the fact that the person who claims to speak for God knows how powerful it is to do so and is going to use that power to basically get people who just want to please God to do things they wouldn't otherwise do.

John Dehlin 26:39 Yeah. And that really comes out of these polygamy revelations because why didn't God tell the women and you know, that they need to practice polygamy? Why is it God telling Joseph to tell the women that they need to practice polygamy? So let's go to this next slide. Is this the next one? Lucy Walker and Joseph's command from God to marry him. Okay.

Lucy Walker and the Threat of Eternal Consequences

Mike (LDS Discussions) 26:58 Yeah. And so this is another one we covered, I think, in our second or third episode on polygamy. And, you know, it's Lucy Walker, which is one of the most difficult stories for me anyways. And I think it is for a lot of people who study polygamy. And so Lucy Walker is a young girl. Her mother passes away, and Joseph Smith sends her father on a mission. And he brings Lucy and I think one of her sisters into it to live with their. How their home. And they. They send the younger sisters off to another house. And Lucy Smith talked about how the prophet and his wife introduced us as their daughters. And yet in that very same year that Joseph Smith sent her father away and her mother passes away, he proposes to her in his home. And she says, in the year 1842, President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me and said, I have a message for you. I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman. My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me. He asked me if I believed him to be a prophet of God. Most assuredly I do, I replied. And so this is just as we've been saying. Joseph Smith is using revelation once he knows these women revere him as a prophet to convince these women to do things they don't want to do and that God specifically chose them to be his polygamous brides. There's no qualifier here. The direct implication is that Joseph Smith was told by God that God hand chose Lucy Walker to be his bride. And it just is such a disgusting story because of the fact that he is sending her father off on a mission after her mother's dies. She's very vulnerable. He has her live in his house as an adoptive daughter. And we are to believe that the Mormon version of God is then going to hand pick her to be Joseph Smith's wife. And obviously she did have sex with him. And he is, I believe at this point, over twice her age. She was 17 when they got married. She was 16 when he proposed to her. And this is, you know, she is basically saying that she did not like being proposed to, but she does it because she believes it's directly from God.

John Dehlin 28:54 Yeah. And oddly, the Mormon church claims the US Constitution. Sorry, Nemo. That the US Constitution is inspired and one of the, one of the, I don't know, geniuses, you could say of the US Constitution, it was probably inspired by the Brits, was the separation of powers, that there's a legislative, the judicial and the executive and that they provide checks and balances to each other. I'm just going to say it. You know, if God can inspire the US Constitution to have checks and balances, he should know that the person who's receiving the revelation shouldn't be the same person that's propositioning young girls for marriage and sex that should be divided. Have it be a woman prophet that he speaks to, you know, who then is telling her that then some other man should be having, you know, who, what men and women should be having sex with. But, but don't be telling the same person who, who's your one true prophet on the earth, you know, who he needs to be marrying and having sex with. God. God needs to come up with a better system than that, in my opinion. Nemo, am I wrong?

Nemo 30:06 I just, I'm chuckling to myself because a phrase popped into my mind I never thought I would think, which is, well, a more ethical way to do polygamy would be. And I'm like, how does that phrase come about? But he almost talking about some woman

John Dehlin 30:20 deciding who should have sex with who. I'm like, wait, there's no good way to do this, right?

Nemo 30:24 There isn't. But you almost want like, like the ancient Greek oracles. You almost want the polygamy oracle who's like this matriarch who just sits in a tent and the young girls, when they come of age, go and ask her. I don't know. But absolutely, if, if polygamy was God inspired, if that is his way of making marriage work, and that's a different issue to contend with, we'll put that to One side, if that is what he wanted, there were better ways to do it than to get the man who would be reaping the rewards to be the man who. Who delivers the message. I think that's the best way I can put it.

John Dehlin 30:54 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 30:55 Yeah, it's. It's one of those things where we did all those episodes on polygamy, and the more you look at it, the more you talk about it, the more absurd it is. And as I said, it really shows how the Mormon version of God is very incompetent. And. And. And that sounds horrible to people, right? As a believer, you're listening that, and you're like, how dare you say that? But again, if we are to believe that God can send an angel with a drawn sword to tell Joseph Smith to enter into polygamy, then that same God can send an angel to these women and say, hey, this is going to be difficult, but it is a command of God that you marry Joseph Smith. But instead it only goes through Joseph Smith, which tells you that there is. Either Joseph Smith is doing it because this is what he wants, or that God really is not good at trying to be this loving God that loves all of his sons and daughters equally because he's. God is then putting these women in a position that never needs to be put in the first place, because God could just go to them and say, hey, this. This is happening. And yet we just don't see it. And the answer to why we don't see it is very obvious, but it should be a red flag. But of course, as Nemo said earlier, when you hear these things as a believer, it's a completely different lens, and you don't see it until you do.

Nemo 32:08 I think this is where, you know, you have the problem in the current church as well, with a prophet that he is. He should never be allowed to receive revelation that impacts himself. I think. I think that's what it comes down to for me. A prophet should never be able to have revelation that impacts themselves. Yeah, they should be able to have revelation that spiritually guides the people that are responsible for spiritually guiding. They can have revelation to say, you know, you should be kinder to each other. You should be this, that, and the other. But they shouldn't be able to say, I've had a revelation that my compensation packet needs to go up this year. I've had a revelation that, you know, my investments need to do this, that, and the other. That's. That's not for them. They should be the democratization of our profit should be that they provide spiritual nourishment, and the people, by their own volition, provide the physical sustenance to the prophet. So the people decide how much they want to support the prophet. They see the prophet's needs, and the people that the prophet leads go, right, okay, well, we're going to provide you with this or provide you with that. They shouldn't be using God to get their own stuff.

John Dehlin 33:10 If I were God and I were giving a revelation, you know, to Nemo, for Mike, hopefully it would be like, you know, nemo. Tell Mike, you know, oh, he's struggling financially and I'm just making this up. Tell him to go under a rock outside his house and he'll find some money to help feed his family. In other words, the revelations that I would give a prophet for the people specifically would always be to help the people, not to make the profit rich and wealthy and powerful and to satisfy his sexual interests. It would always be for the benefit of the recipient.

Nemo 33:52 Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin 33:53 Not for the prophet.

Nemo 33:54 Absolutely. The prophet shouldn't receive revelation for themselves. And if you're an omnipotent being, if you're actually able to do whatever you want, then you can just provide for the prophet without having to get other people involved. If the prophet has needs and wants, the perk of being a prophet surely would be that you've got a direct line to an omnipotent being that can look out for you rather than having to use the name of that omnipotent being to get others to do what you need. That's just another thought. Sorry, I don't circle that drain.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 34:20 No. And that really is what we're doing right now is just saying, why can't God go to these women and say, hey, I need you to marry Joseph Smith? Why know it. It just doesn't make sense. And we talked in our polygamy episodes. You know, there are reasons beyond sex. There's power. There's. There's a lot of power dynamics. There's also one of the things you see with polygamy is sometimes Joseph would talk to some of the other men to get them involved in polygamy, which gets them complicit in the system. And then all of a sudden, they've got like, the secret circle. So, I mean, there's more than just sex. But at the same time, when you look at the way polygamy is implemented, where Joseph Smith is going to these women and saying, God hand chose you for me, the first question I'm asking is, why is God not Going to these women and telling them the same thing, because that seems like a really easy thing for any kind of God to do. And if you're a loving God, that seems like something you would do without hesitation. Like, I would never set my own kid up to have to go through something horrible when I could just go say, hey, this is what we're going to do. And so we are circling the drain a bit. But it's really important to understand the dynamics of how Joseph Smith is implying and directly stating this is the voice of God, whereas God is completely silent in basically every other aspect of these lives that are, that are going on.

John Dehlin 35:32 Yeah, I think, I think we're talking about important stuff. I don't think we're circling the drain because I don't, I don't think we've, I don't think the Mormon discourse has really talked about what is, what is an ethical revelation from God versus not. Frankly, I don't, I haven't, I've been doing this 20 years. I, I have not seen a lot of discussion about holding God. Let's just say Mormon God. You know, you often use the term, Mike. You know, God being thrown under the bus. That's one way to say it. Another way to say it is what types of realistic expectations should we have for Mormon Heavenly Father for ethical behavior? In other words, that helps us decide, is this behavior really of Heavenly Father or Mormon Heavenly Father, or is it more of a worldly bottom up kind of nature? You know, the ethics of the commandments or the revelations can help us get a sense for whether they're truly divine or they go against what we think a loving all, loving all, powerful divine being would allow or sanction. Isn't that fair?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 36:42 Yeah, no, I mean, I think I've said it in previous episodes, but you know, one of the things, one of the aha moments, however you want to use, you know that whatever cliche you want to use for me was when I got to a point where I thought, if this really is true, then the God of Mormonism is a really horrible parent. And again, that sounds really loaded. But when you really think about what we perceive as literal stories, whether it's the global flood where you're killing millions of babies and dogs and animals and all these great creatures, or Jesus in the Book of Mormon comes to America, one of the first things Jesus does is just slaughters like what, 16 or 17 cities or something. And then you go, does that really seem like a parent that's caring about his kids when they could just Basically obliterate cities full of innocent women and children and animals. And then you look to this and you look at the revelations and you look at what the Mormon version of God is concerned with. And we talked about this in previous episodes, but you know, just to short circuit that, we have God sending an angel with a drawn sword to tell Joseph Smith to marry and have sex with, with young women, teenage girls, like 17, right? 17, 18, 19. And that same God cannot send an angel down to tell Mormon prophets to stop with the explicit racism in the church. That same God can't send an angel down to tell the prophets. You probably shouldn't create 13 shell companies to hide your 100, 100 plus billion dollar in wealth so that your members keep paying tithing. And you know, from a believing standpoint, you're going to look at me saying that and saying, well, you, your expectations are wrong. I'm just saying if that was how I raised my kid, I would be a lousy father. So I think it's fair to say that Heavenly fathers, through the lens of Mormonism, the Mormon version of God is, if this is true, then I don't want to be a part of it. I don't want to be in a eternal equation where if I do not do things that I know are ethically wrong, then I'm going to lose my family forever. And I think that really comes down to something you get to later on as you kind of go through a faith journey, whatever you want to call it. But yeah, to your point, if this is true, if this really is from God, then the Mormon version of God is kind of a bad person. That's, that's a real. Yeah, that's a realization that's really tricky to get to. And when, even when I say it now, I feel kind of goofy saying, like I feel kind of uneasy. But again, if this was a father, a real father, this is a very abusive, manipulative father. There's no way around it. This is not a loving father. This is someone who is just kind of off the rails with, with how

Nemo 39:14 they do things to allow us to move on. I vote that we just do an episode on the ethics of God and revelation and.

John Dehlin 39:20 No, that's good.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 39:21 Yeah, that might be a great one. Yeah, let's do that.

John Dehlin 39:23 Yeah, do that down the road. But probably, you know, again, probably the best example of, you know, Grant Palmer used to call it Mormon Jesus. The best example, I think the single best example of abusive, coercive Mormon Jesus is, is the angel with the drawn sword in Zina. Huntington, Jacob. So let's tell that story.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 39:48 Yeah. And so this is one again. We covered this in our polygamy episodes, but this is a horrifying story because it begins with Joseph Smith using revelation and visions to effectively take her from her legally married husband, Henry. And so we talked about this in our episode, but Joseph Smith goes to Zina and says, basically, God wants me, wants you to marry me. And she says, no, I fell in love with Henry. She marries Henry on their wedding date. Joseph Smith is supposed to officiate. He doesn't show up, and John C. Bennett has to step in and do it. And, you know, so Zina refuses the proposal and marries Henry. Joseph Smith still doesn't let her go. And this is one of those instances where we have the angel with the drawn Sword account. And so this is from Zina Huntington. She says, he sent word to me by my brother saying, tell Zina I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth, I would lose my position and my life. And so when Mormon apologists tell you that the angel was not threatening Joseph's actual life, that's absolutely not the case. There are multiple accounts. This account makes it clear. And, you know, these are one of these things where I don't really know what to say because we cover all these accounts in our polygamy episodes, and I cover them on the website. Joseph Smith is using Revelation to get these young women to throw away their own conscience, to throw away their own morality, and to throw away a marriage that's based in love because Joseph Smith can't let her go. And, you know, basically what we have here is this idea that an angel with a drawn sword is going to go down to Joseph Smith and say, I will end your life if you do not marry Zina Huntington. But if the entire idea of God is to establish polygamy on earth, then Joseph Smith should be able to go to another woman who is single. And yet Joseph Smith is using it with very specific women. And when they reject his initial proposal, he ups the game. And then in this case, he proposes to her. She says no. He doesn't show up at her wedding. She still marries Henry. And then he comes with this angel with the drawn sword, which puts so much pressure and coercion on these women. And it just against to me, I go, why in the world does God not just go to Z and say, hey, I know you want to marry Henry, but I have Preordained you for Joseph, you are going to be his wife. And it just shows that Joseph Smith here is upping his game to get women to do what they otherwise will not do.

The Angel with the Drawn Sword Story

John Dehlin 42:06 Yeah. And I just like that question. Is it your understanding of Jesus, the Prince of Peace, that he's going to threaten Joseph to be killed if he doesn't make some woman be his wife and have sex with him? Is that how God and Jesus work in your theology? That's. I think everyone just needs to ask themselves that question. Nemo.

Nemo 42:33 I just pulled up my copy of In Sacred Loneliness to have a quick look, and it seems that actually she was the fourth polygamous wife. So if you pull up that slide again, what's really interesting is that Joseph Smith says, I put it off and put it off to an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth, I would lose my position in my life. Why is he saying that now when he's already established the principle on the earth? It's already been established because he's already done it three, three times. He's already taken three polygamous wives before this one. So that just doesn't make any sense. The threat itself is untrue, regardless of whether the angel did appear. What the angel said makes no sense.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 43:12 Yeah. So sorry. Those are those moments where you could see that Joseph Smith is making it up. And once you understand that he's willing to make it up to get women to basically leave a happy marriage to Mary. Joseph Smith, I know Zina, I believe, stayed with Henry and then that fell apart once Brigham took her after Joseph died. But if you have not watched those episodes, watch. Watch our polygamy episodes, because that story is just a horrific one. But to Nemo's point, Joseph Smith here is absolutely lying to Zina to get her to do something that she doesn't want to do. And you know, it just talking about ethics and morality, it just shows what Joseph Smith is willing to do because he knows how powerful it is. And if he'd gone to Zionist Brother and said, I put it off, I put it off. The angel said, I need to do it. Yeah, I've already done with, you know, I've already got a few married, but I'd like her still, that wouldn't have the impact. And so he's got to up his game. And these are the moments where you could see who Joseph Smith really is with regard to how he's using Revelation. And it's very clear he is willing to lie, he's willing to manipulate people when he needs to. And I, I know from a believing standpoint that sounds loaded, but the, these accounts are what they are. We can't, you know, their history, their evidence, and, and they're very telling. Especially when, as we're going to do through these episodes, you put them all together. It's very inescapable that Joseph Smith is using Revelation to get what he needs to get at a given time.

John Dehlin 44:34 Yeah, absolutely. And I just, you know, I just want to say to kind of bring it to kind of current events. You know, yesterday we did this three hour episode with Mark Pugsley about the, the U.S. securities and Exchange Commission finding the Mormon Church and Ensign Peak Advisors $5 million for like explicitly and intentionally hiding and lying. And when you're raised as a Mormon with these grandfatherly church leaders, it's just not even in your realm of possibility that they would ever hide or lie for anything. These are like the paragons of virtue. But then you actually read the settlement order that the Mormon Church and the SEC agreed upon and it is explicit that the First Presidency lied and hid and covered up their investments intentionally for decades. And you think, how in the world, where in the world would they get an example? Where in the world could a culture have been developed where you appear pious, but then you're hiding and lying overtly and knowingly and egregiously behind the scenes. And then you realize that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, that they are literally only doing what their founding prophet did. And I know that sounds angry and extreme, but it is literally just factual.

Nemo 46:10 I think there's another parallel alongside that, which is it's the reason the church struggles with abuse so much. It's the, the reason the church won't just implement background checks. It's the reason the church refuses to do things that would root out the problem of abuse within the church, which is that if they have to start looking at abusive behaviors from church leaders, they're going to have to start dealing with the abusive behaviors that Joseph Smith engaged in with these young girls. That's what he did. The same sort of predatory tactics of using the voice of God to get them to engage in sexual behavior with him is the same as a bishop doing such now. And we have this idea, like you said, John, that they're members of the church, they wouldn't do such things. But you only have to look to the original prophet, the Mormon Church, to see that they absolutely wouldn't. I think it's one of the reasons the church has such a trouble dealing with this is because it forces them to look directly in the face of the first prophet of the church who had the same problems.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 47:08 Yeah, yeah. And I'll add in, I don't have this as an overview project page, so. But on the website, I had done a page, it's based off of a number of podcasts and accounts where Russell Nelson now has four miracle stories that he proclaims the miracles, where he either exaggerates or outright fabricates the miraculous details. And so I don't have that as an overview page, but that's an episode we could do.

Nemo 47:35 Especially if you've done a video on that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 47:38 Yeah. Because when you.

Nemo 47:39 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 47:40 Check out Nemo's episode, and then if you watch it and you say, I'd like to hear more, we could do one. But the point is, when you've got the current prophet of the church who has been caught now making up four miracle stories, one of them, they actually had to stop printing his biography because the lie was so bad that the people involved in it said, this is not what happened. Deseret Books had to stop printing the book so they could remove it because it was outright not true. So when you have the current prophet who is willing to make up miracles to elevate himself in the eyes of his followers, it's just what people do when they get power, and they want people to see them as bigger than they are. And Russell Nelson is using a lot of those same elements Joseph Smith did. I don't know what to say.

Nemo 48:23 It's just.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 48:24 You could see it throughout. It's just. It's, you know, it's. It's. It's very aggravating because, you know, as we talked about, these are accounts, these are content with Russell Nelson. These are contemporary accounts where we can look at the Catarbo records and say, yeah, that didn't happen. You're making that up.

Nemo 48:39 And.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 48:41 And a lot of members will say, no, no, no, I believe him. It's like, okay, but now at that point, you've abandoned faith. You're in some other area. But so, anyways, the point is, if listeners want to see us do an episode, we could do that. But to your point, John. Yeah. Leaders from the church been doing it since the beginning because they know that charisma is what keeps people in this church. The belief that these people have a connection to God is what keeps people in the church. Because if they start studying the history, they start studying this stuff, they're going to say, no, this isn't true. But if you keep them believing that they speak from God and that there's going to be consequences for leaving, that's what's going to keep the church going. And that's what Nelson is very good at, especially when he creates his miracle stories to make sure people realize this guy speaks for God.

Nemo 49:21 And the genius stroke of Joseph Smith is DNC121, because he writes in this mechanism whereby he says, yeah, of course, men exercise unrighteous dominion. We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men. As soon as they get a little power, as they supposed, they will begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. He puts that in there as though, like, all right, so Joseph knows that men get things wrong and, you know, their priesthood will be taken away, and there's consequences to that. Have you seen any president of the church who has actually exercised unrighteous dominion be held accountable for it? No, it's this empty caveat that Joseph Smith put in there to say, well, guys, don't worry. This checks and balances on my power that don't really exist.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 50:07 Yeah. And the few times in the early church that people did try to check, kind of keep his power in check, they were excommunicated. So, you know, there's a reason that Martin Harris and David Whitmer and Oliver Kadri are run out of town. They were the three witnesses, and they were all excommunicated because they were starting to say, joseph, what are you doing? You know, Oliver Cowdery had a problem with polygamy. David Whitmer had a problem with Joseph Smith implementing, you know, the priesthood long after the fact.

Nemo 50:30 That.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 50:30 And so. And that does tie into revelation as well, because David Whitmer will tell you that the revelation where he, you know, claims to have the Melchizedek priesthood restored would never happened. And so we do have a lot of elements, to your point, Nemo, of Joseph Smith kind of saying, oh, yeah, people are going to be abuse of power. And members like, oh, my goodness, he. He knew. When in reality, he's almost kind of just like projecting because he's doing that. And he's almost using the voice of God to kind of say, you know, that it's going to be taken care of. And it's just. It's a mess when you start getting into it, which obviously we're doing here today because we kind of keep getting on these little side tangents because there's just so many elements to these revelations beyond the text itself, I don't think

John Dehlin 51:09 we're getting on side tangents or circling the drain. I think we're providing important analysis, Mike.

Nemo 51:16 No.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 51:17 Yeah.

John Dehlin 51:18 Let's go to the next. Let's go to the next slide. And that is, you know, Joseph Smith's convenient revelation to fund the Nauvoo House, which happened to be, I believe, the house he lived in. But let's go ahead and have you talk about it, Mike.

Nemo 51:32 Yeah.

Revelation Used in Financial and Property Matters

Mike (LDS Discussions) 51:33 And before let's talk about this, I have another really long tangent I would like to do. I'm just kidding. We go to the slide. Yeah. This one's really interesting because Joseph Smith receives the revelation to tell Martin Harris to sell his property to fund the Book of Mormon. And in this revelation, Joseph Smith is going to receive this very detailed revelation to show just how interested God was in business matters when it came to funding the Nauvoo House in DNC124. And. I don't know, Nima. Would you like to read that? Your voice is so soothing.

Nemo 52:01 Sure. And they shall form a constitution whereby they may receive stock from the building of that house, and they shall not receive less than $50 for a share of stock in that house, and they shall be permitted to receive $15,000 from any one man for stock in that house. But they shall not be permitted to receive over $15,000 stock from any one man. And they shall not be permitted to receive under $50,000 for a share of stock from any one man in that house. And they shall not be permitted to receive any man as a stockholder in this house, except the same, shall pay his stock into their hands at the time he receives stock. And in proportion to the amount of stock he pays into their hands, he shall receive stock in that house. But if he pays nothing into their hands, he shall not receive any stock in that house. And if any pay stock into their hands, it shall be for stock in that house for himself and for his generation after him, from generation to generation, so long as he and his heirs shall hold that stock and do not sell or convey the stock away out of their hands by their own free will and act, if you will do my will, saith the Lord your God. It's a shame he wasn't this good at 13F filings, isn't it?

John Dehlin 53:20 No, no, make the. Make the point. Make that explicit point. Nemo, what are you saying there? If God, by the way, we caught you eating. We caught you eating on an episode. Shame on you, Nemo.

Nemo 53:30 I'm so sorry. I'm Eating an Oreo as well. It is a chocolate covered Oreo. Oreo.

John Dehlin 53:36 Do we need to pay you more? What do we need to do? Nemo?

Nemo 53:40 Sorry, but I think I styled it out. Okay, so the explicit point I want to make is if God can get this involved in the financial dealings of his church, then there should never have been a case where the SEC could find the church in a position of fraudulent behavior. It's as simple as that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 53:58 Yeah, Mike, I just, I. I just love this revelation for two reasons. One, it makes, like, Jesus just seem like, you know, there's that kind of meme where he's like, in the corporate gear. Jesus has so few words to say to our prophets today. We don't know who heavenly mother is. You know, they. They never warn us about impending things, and yet here, this is just this laundry list of details about getting money. And it just makes you wonder how in the world is God able to give this kind of specificity on business matters and yet can't predict anything that's going to happen in a few years? It just, it really shows again how Joseph Smith is able to put such words in the voice of God to get people to do what he wants. And in a lot of ways, it just. To me, it just screams that he's the author because it's just so specific. It's almost to the point of absurdity.

Nemo 54:49 It's just benign.

John Dehlin 54:51 I'm going to call an audible here, something that I. We hadn't planned to do. Nemo knows that I'm a huge Monty Python fan and I have to play this scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail because it's literally almost like Joseph Smith was. Was trying to write Monty Python satire, but in reality, somehow Monty Python was prophetic of what Joseph Smith's retroactive revelation would have been. So this is. This is a scene from Monty Python's Holy Grail. It's. It's the holy hand grenade scene. Those who are listening, we've got monks who are, you know, who are holding these sacred relics, and they're coming down, coming down the mountain as King Arthur and his knights are all kind of looking on, and they're kind of dressed in friar outfits, and they pull out this sacred relic that looks like it's

Nemo 55:58 like the orb that the queen has.

John Dehlin 55:59 No, not my le. Consult.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:01 The Book of armaments.

Nemo 56:02 Armaments, chapter 2, verses 9 to 21. And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:20 bits in thy mercy.

Nemo 56:22 And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and larkspur. Skip a bit, brother.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:37 And the Lord spake, saying, first shalt

Nemo 56:40 thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:48 Three shall be the number thou shalt

Nemo 56:50 count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:57 thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.

Nemo 57:03 Five is right out. Once the number three being the third number be reached. Then lobbies thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naught in my sight, shall snuff it.

John Dehlin 57:22 Amen. And then the guy counts. He goes, 1, 2, 5. And then they're like, 3.

Nemo 57:28 Sir, I'm so proud to be British right now.

John Dehlin 57:34 No, you're proud to have me as your friend. Who would make that reference?

Nemo 57:37 Nemo. That's perfect, John. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin 57:41 Anyway, Mike, did you get. I mean, when you look at that revelation. Yeah. Which is. Seriously, Mike, I have to ask you, Nemo, which is more ridiculous, the Holy Hand grenade scene or this revelation that you just read? They shall not be permitted to receive over $50,000 stock from any one man.

Nemo 58:03 No more. No.

John Dehlin 58:06 How is anyone in 2023 benefiting from this ridiculous revelation about the Nauvoo House and how many stock everyone's supposed to. And why was it that real estate used to, like, provide a cure for cancer, to get clean water to people, to provide some wisdom on the LGBT crisis, like you said, to tell the Mormon church leaders how to invest their hundreds of billions of dollars of assets. Why was. Why was God's precious revelation wasted on this nonsense? I'm ranty. I'm sorry.

Nemo 58:41 No, it's fine. Joseph Smith had so many years before he would be martyred, and this wasted some of that precious time that he could been in communion with God about more important things, working out how much people should pay for a share in this house that he was going to live in. And the other problem with it is why is it now canonized scripture? Sure, it would be an interesting thing to find in the Joseph Smith Papers Project if this was like a scrap of paper that was found somewhere where Joseph had, you know, just knelt down and consort with the Lord, and he'd come to an idea of what should go on. Fine. Doesn't need to be canonized. Scripture, it teaches. It teaches us nothing. Doesn't even teach us how to blow our enemies into tiny bits like the Holy Hand Grenade would. Just nothing.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 59:21 Yeah, it's a business document. That is. That is Expeditions to Joseph Smith. This is. Yeah, this is. You know, this is a revelation that does nothing except accomplish Joseph Smith's need to get members to fund the Navu House. And just like we've been shown with these other ones, it's an area where if you go up to random members and you're like, I need you to give at least 50 bucks for a share of this. They might be, like, not that into it, but they're like, God is setting this. This for you, and they're telling you, you know, you should do this. And it's just. It's. It's absurd. Like, it really is absurd. It serves. Like you said, it serves no purpose in 2023. It takes away from the possibility of a revelation that actually matters to the world. And it serves the purposes of Joseph Smith. It does not really serve anyone else's purpose in any. In any way. It's just so obvious. Looking at it now, you read it and you're like, this is absurd. You know, I think I've used the word cartoonish a few times in these episodes. This is cartoonishly absurd to think that God is this concerned about how shares are being put out for a piece of real estate that is being built in Nauvoo and yet silent on so many important things.

Nemo 1:00:23 But then we've seen this in the Book of Mormon as well, because you see times when Joseph Smith puts superfluous information just as, like, how much an auntie is. We don't need to know the monetary system of the Nephites. It would be more important if we found those coins, but we haven't. But we don't need to know that stuff. But all the effort went into putting that on gold plates. So this is just filler material. And it's the same. This is Joseph's filler material for dnc. This is just. Well, God told me about this, so let's just put that in there as well.

John Dehlin 1:00:51 But we also just can't. We can't emphasize enough. It's always sex, money, and power. And in this case, the purpose of this revelation, again, is for Joseph Smith to get money. If I'm. Tell me if I'm wrong. To fund not just his primary residence, but to build himself and his wife Emma, a mansion. I mean, is that not what this is, or is that wrong?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:01:16 I think that's what the. I think the Nauvoo. House is basically a mansion because they had a lot of people living there.

Nemo 1:01:21 It's sometimes referred to as the Nauvoo Mansion house, I believe.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:01:23 Yeah, I think it is.

John Dehlin 1:01:24 So. So again, this is Joseph Smith. You know, you could. It could be that God really needed this revelation to be here for our modern day. Or, you know, another option is Joseph Smith wanted a super nice house for his wife, and conveniently this revelation came. Now, what's interesting, Mike, is that the next slide suggests that as ridiculous as that revelation was, somehow he still gets it wrong.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:01:51 Yeah, and I think this is where it's interesting because as I, you know, as we've already talked about, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't know what else to say outside of. Joseph is using the voice of God to get followers to fund the Navu House because it's a lot easier than Joseph trying to get them to do it himself. And, you know, the revelation even says, saith the Lord your God, after giving verse after verse detailing exact amounts of money that the shares will be sold for the limit of what each member could pay per share and to make sure that the cheapskates can't pony up. That can't pony up. $50 aren't considered in the effort, but. But it doesn't end there. And so the funding revelation continues well beyond verse 69. Some of them get even more problematic. And here's.

Nemo 1:02:26 I'm not eating. Do you want me to read it?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:02:27 Yeah, Read first things three for us.

Nemo 1:02:29 Nemo, it says, if he will do my will, let him not take his family unto the eastern lands, even unto Kirtland. Nevertheless, I the Lord will build up Kirtland, but I the Lord have a scourge prepared for the inhabitants thereof.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:02:46 Yeah. And so Joseph here, this is after the. The saints are out of Kirtland. Right. So he's basically saying that God's saying that he's got a scourge prepared for Kirtland and it never happens. So this is another area where Joseph Smith is trying to be like, yeah, you know, we're. I'm taking care of those people that, that ran you out of town and it never happened.

Nemo 1:03:06 And just a quick point, you know, there's people that will say, oh, the church. The church has never called it a mansion. You go to the back of a standard quad and it's listed as the mansion house in Nauvoo. Yeah, it is definitely a mansion.

John Dehlin 1:03:17 Thank you. So that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:03:18 That works as a two for. It works as Joseph Smith trying to get people to do what he wants. And also has a failed revelation in there as well, because, again, this is being written in the voice of God that there would be a scourge on Kirtland, which just doesn't happen.

John Dehlin 1:03:30 I'm tired of Mormon God just threatening and punishing every. Threatening to punish everyone. And I think when we talk about the Zion camp, that'll be, you know, that'll be significant. So, yeah, that category was basically Joseph Smith using Revelations to get things he wanted. Let's go ahead and move to the next category, which is Joseph Smith using Revelation to get out of a jam or jams.

Revelation Used to Escape Difficult Situations

Nemo 1:03:55 And.

John Dehlin 1:03:55 And I guess the first. And I don't know how many instances we have of this, but now it's time to talk about the last 116 pages, which I'll say we have an entire episode on the last 116 pages, so we'll want to make sure you check that out. But let's go ahead and go to this slide, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:04:13 Yeah. And so, as John said, we have an entire episode on the 116 pages, which I highly recommend. I think it's one of the more important ones we've done. So Martin Harris is going to take the original manuscript from Joseph to go show Lucy Harris, because she wanted them to see if Joseph was a prophet. And Joseph was able to use Revelation in the voice of God to find a way out of the problem that gets created, which is that Martin Harris loses the pages. We don't quite know if Lucy took them, if she didn't take them. And as we discussed in that episode in DNC 10, God tells Joseph not to retranslate the original 116 pages as Lucy apparently wanted to, because, as the DNC quotes, because evil people would prove him a fraud by altering his pages, even though it would be incredibly obvious if they had made changes to the original manuscript. This is not in an age with really good Photoshop technique. It would be very obvious if you altered the manuscript, especially if you look at the actual manuscripts we have. It's very written, very tight. It would be pretty obvious. So Joseph Smith continues to dictate the Book of Mormon after losing the 116 pages, which we talked about in our last episode as well. But he knew he couldn't publish the book without a beginning. And so Joseph is going to further claim revelation as he finishes that God knew this was going to happen all along. So God would allow Joseph to translate off of the original plates, which would later then be redefined as the small plates. In Nephi in order to finish the Book of Mormon. And so this is an area where Joseph Smith is in a massive problem in the sense of he can't retranslate the manuscript because he doesn't. He would get it completely differently because he's dictating it orally, but at the same time he has to explain why it's going to be different. And so this is him using the voice of God to effectively create a game plan of how he's going to deal with the setback and yet make it seem like it was basically, you know, preordained from, from the dawn of time that Joseph Smith was going to lose the original manuscript without exposing the fact that he is the author of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin 1:06:14 Right,

Nemo 1:06:16 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:06:16 I mean, and so I don't know if you guys have anything to add. It's just, it's a good, it's a good example of just how he's, how he's able to use the voice of God to try to fix a problem that he's created.

John Dehlin 1:06:24 Yeah. And you know, we talk about it in the 116 page episode, but lost under 16 pages episode. But what, what God ends up miraculously saying is that he's lost his power to translate for a season. And maybe that's God again just being a jerky, punishing God. Or maybe Joseph needed more time to come up with how he was going to solve this problem and then come up with replacement text. You know, again, you can decide what's more probable. For me, it's more probable that Joseph needed to buy himself some time. So he gets this revelation that says, I take away your powers for a season because he's got to tell the people around him, sorry, I can't translate while he goes and works on whatever outlines or stories that he's going to, you know, replace it all with. That's, that's what makes sense to me. Okay, the next example, Mike, we have is when Oliver Cowdery wants to help translate the Book of Mormon.

Oliver Cowdery, Hiram Page, and Rival Revelation Claims

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:07:28 Yeah, and this one's interesting. And this is a blurb that comes from the Church's Doctrine and Covenants student manual. And it's a good one because it kind of gives you the Church's kind of perspective both on, on the event and on Oliver Cowdery to an extent. It says, but Oliver was not content merely to assist in the work of translating by serving as Joseph scribe. He wanted to translate as Joseph did. The Lord's desire, on the other hand, was for Oliver to continue to serve as Scribe and then seek for greater gifts. Oliver, however, became impatient and was given permission to translate on his own. Doctrine and Covenants 9 is an explanation of Oliver's failure to translate as he had wished. And so what happens here is Oliver wants to translate part of the Book of Mormon, and I think it puts Joseph Smith in a tight spot because obviously he can't let Oliver translate, because I believe Joseph Smith to be the author. There's no writing on gold plates for him to translate. And if you remember from our earlier episodes, Oliver Cowdery's didn't have a stone and a hat. He had a dousing rod, which is like a stick. And then you walk around and it kind of moves when you're. When you're near water or near treasure. And so it kind of doesn't make sense in any way how Oliver would even translate anyways. But Joseph Smith is going to come up with this revelation, which is basically going to say that Oliver can try to do it, and then Oliver's going to try to do it, fail miserably. And then, of course, Joseph Smith has to try to give the reason why Oliver not only can't translate, but why he needs to sit down and shut up for wanting to translate, and he needs to just be a scribe and be happy with it. And so DNC9 comes after Joseph originally gives him the. The attempt to try to translate on his own.

John Dehlin 1:09:06 Yeah, I. First of all, I should know this, but, like, has anybody tried to reconstruct. Was. Was Oliver just thinking. Walking around with the dousing rod, thinking that the plates were in the field? Did. Was he pointing the dowsing rod at a curtain when. When he believed that the plates were on the other side? Like, how would he have tried to translate?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:09:30 I. I don't know. And that's the thing, because. So it's a pencil, obviously, but if you're using a dousing right here, like this rod, and you're walking and you're holding it really steady, and then in theory, when it starts moving like that, it means you're over water or you're over treasure. Right. So in theory, it would be like Oliver going, okay, it's the next line. And it came to pass.

Nemo 1:09:49 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:09:49 Yeah. I don't know. It really makes no sense. The rock and a hat. It makes sense just because nobody could see what Joseph's doing so he could claim that words are appearing. I don't know if this is supposed to be, like, a hologram where the words shoot up at the end, but whatever it was, obviously it didn't work. And I'm not trying to be crude. I'm just saying, like, the folk magic stuff is ridiculous. When you think about how it could work within the Book of Mormon's translation

Nemo 1:10:12 process, I guess what the question is, what is the mechanism by which he used dousing rods to try and affect a translation? I wonder whether it was almost like a Ouija board scenario where he had all the letters of the English Alphabet and he'd move it over it and then as it was the right letter, they'd twitch and so he'd just do it. I don't know.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:10:28 It would be an insane way to do it, but. Yeah, but how else would you do it? It makes no. It really makes no sense in the first place. Unless he was like, can I put

Nemo 1:10:34 it in the comments? Put it in the comments. If you have any idea, let us know.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:10:38 I mean, I don't know how.

John Dehlin 1:10:39 And I think what Joseph Smith was stuck between here is part of the promise of the Restoration was that God speaks to man today. And I think in those early years, as we talked about in a past episode, Joseph even says, as in Revelation in the Book of Commandments, that God will give Joseph no further gifts. Right? Besides being able to translate the Book of Mormon, Isn't that what it said? Mike and Nemo. And so on the one hand, Joseph's trying to be humble here and say, look, I'm not trying to be a cult leader. I'll create the book. But from there on, God's gifts are going to work throughout the rest of you somehow. So he wants to make people believe that God can speak to them. You know, just like that scripture. If any. If any of you lack wisdom, right? If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who giveth to who. Who giveth to all men liberally and abradeth not, and what it shall be given unto him. So if Joseph is preaching that, then Oliver's like, okay, Joseph, I'll take you up on it. If God's going to give you the power to translate, I've got. I've got powers. Maybe God will give me the power to translate. But what happens when God doesn't give Oliver the power to translate? What's Joseph got to say about why Oliver's not able to have that same power? How does Joseph reconcile this? Boom. A revelation, right? Is that fair?

Nemo 1:12:07 Yeah. And it's also like revolution mechanics, like, ah, there's this oppressive class of people. Let us rise up, fellow people. We are all equal. We can all do something. But the leader of that revolution often ends up in charge and in a better place than the their fellow person that they were, you know, bringing along in the revolution. So it's that sort of thing where Joseph's like, try keep himself humble, trying to make it universal. He's trying to be universalist with it, but at the same time trying to also keep himself special because he's the leader. He's got to have some perks like

John Dehlin 1:12:43 George Orwell and Animal Farm. All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Nemo 1:12:48 Exactly.

John Dehlin 1:12:48 So, Mike, let's take a closer look at the text of DNC9 and the Oliver smackdown, as you call it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:12:54 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:12:55 And you know, reading this or am I? Who's reading this?

Nemo 1:12:58 I can read it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:12:59 Whoever wants to read it. I just. Before you do, I just want to point out that I didn't put DNC8 in here because we're going to be reading Revelation all day. But if you read DNC8 later, just look at how Joseph Smith, through the voice of God is kind of trying to explain to Oliver why Oliver wants to translate. And he's doing it, trying to do it in a way. You know, he talks about the. This is one of the changes we talked about in our changes to the DNC episode because now in the DNC it says the gift of Aaron. Because they did not want to use the original. I think they changed it twice. One said the rod of nature. I forgot what the other change was. So in this, you know, basically God is telling Oliver that he has this gift, which is now the current version is you have another gift, which is the gift of Aaron. Behold, it has told you many things. Behold, there is no other power save the power of God that can cause this gift of Aaron to be with you. And so Joseph Smith is telling Oliver through the voice of God that he has a divine power with this dousing rod, which they then have sugar coated in the DNC to make it seem less folk magicy. And because of that, Oliver thinks he's going to be able to translate. And so now this, which you guys will read, shows what happens when it doesn't work. And Oliver's kind of upset that he's not able to translate like he was told he'd be able to by God through Joseph Smith.

Nemo 1:14:07 Okay, okay. Do you want to get that read? Cool. Behold, I say unto you, my son, that because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me and did commence again to write for my servant, Joseph Smith Jr. Even so, I would that ye should continue until you have finished this record which I have entrusted unto him. And then, behold, other records have I that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate. Be patient, my son, for it is wisdom in me, and it is not expedient that you should translate at this present time. Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner. Behold, you have not understood. You have supposed that I would give it unto you when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But behold, I say unto you that you must study it out in your mind. Then you must ask me if it be right. And if it is right, I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you. Therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right, you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong. Therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred, save it be given you from me. Now, if you had known this, you could have translated. Nevertheless, it is not expedient that you should translate now. So he's like, here's the answer. I've given you the answer. Here's how you could have done it, But I'm telling you, it's not expedient, so don't try it again.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:15:41 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:15:41 I mean, what's weird to me about this, Number one, is our prophet's supposed to see the future. Like, couldn't Joseph have just saved Oliver that time and just said, oh, oh, Oliver, you want to translate with your dousing rod? Oh, wait, God says you're not supposed to do that. Like, why didn't Joseph just get his revelation beforehand and save Oliver the trouble? But what this reads to me like is, like textbook damage control. It's basically, number one saying, nope, God says you're not supposed to do it. So it's basically almost pseudepigrapha saying, look, somebody else in power says, you shouldn't do it. Don't blame me. It's God who's saying it. And then he says, be patient. And then he says, don't murmur, which is basically saying, hey, let's not. Let's not. You know, don't go tell Martin. Don't go tell the Whitmers that I kind of made you a promise, and then you couldn't do it. Like, don't murmur. Damage control. And then the part that. That really bothers me is what, you know, Luna, Lindsay Corbden, or Stephen Hassan would call blame reversal. He doesn't just Sort of like say, sorry, God doesn't want it. When a. When a person exhibiting undue influence has a revelation or prophecy that doesn't come true, what often happens is they put it back on the believer. So when ruling, Jeffs prophesies that Jesus is going to come right before the 2002 Winter Olympics. And then all the, you know, FLDS people prepare and work to. To get ready so that Jesus will come, and then Jesus doesn't come. What does Warren say? Or what does Rulon say? You weren't worthy. And we're going to see this with the Zion. Zion's camp stuff. You weren't worthy. And that's what kept Jesus for coming from coming. And for me, that's what this is another instance of. He says, you have not understood. You have supposed I would give it unto you, but you, you know, you have to study it out in your mind and get a burning in your bosom. To me, that's just several verses of what I call blame reversal. And it's. I think it's gaslighting to me.

Nemo 1:18:03 It's an interesting point to see that he uses the word murmur because Joseph Smith, if you believe him to be the author of the Book of Mormon, uses that word a lot to describe the grumblings of Laman and Lemuel. That word stands out as part of Joseph Smith's kind of idiolect. And then what's. It's interesting that it could have been that Joseph got carried away, was like, yeah, sure, I'm sure God will give it to you too. And then is in damage kind of control mode.

John Dehlin 1:18:25 Yeah, yeah.

Nemo 1:18:26 Or maybe he saw this as an opportunity to put Oliver Cowdery down a bit, to let him try something, knowing he would fail, so he could then come in with the voice of God to reinforce his position and say, nah, nah, you've gotta. You gotta leave it to me, you little upstart. Don't go trying to do things beyond gestation. Maybe that's not too.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:18:45 And what's interesting is verse two of the slide, it says, and then behold, other records have I that I will give unto you power that you may assist to translate. And so it's almost like he's saying, you're not touching this one. But down the road, if you're just patient, I'll let you translate something down the road. It's almost like when you have kids and like, you only have one one Snickers bar and I realized you could split it. But let's just say you have two kids, you Got one Snickers bar, and each kid wants it. And so you give it to. To Emma. And then little Lucy is like, but I wanted the Snicker bar. And you're like, lucy, shut up. Chill out. I'll get another Snickers bar down the road. You'll have it then. But for now, I need you to just sit down and do what I need to tell you. No murmuring, no being upset, for I am the one that eats the Snickers bar. You know, it just. It feels like he's basically trying to placate him by saying, I want you to be the scribe here. I don't want you to even think about doing anything else. But down the road, maybe I'll do something. And it just. It really feels like he's. He's doing it on the fly. And he's also trying to figure out how one, as Nemo said, put Oliver in his place and be like, this is why it failed. It's because of you. It's not because of me. And I need you to really just chill out, because down the road, I'll let you do something cooler. If you're just. Yeah, if you're cool now, I'll let you do something later. It's. It's really telling to me.

John Dehlin 1:19:59 Yeah.

Nemo 1:19:59 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:20:00 He's just trying to buy time.

John Dehlin 1:20:01 He's placating for a future promise.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:20:03 Yes. He doesn't have to deliver.

Nemo 1:20:05 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:20:05 And if you look at verse two, he doesn't even say you'll translate. What does he say? He says, you may assist to.

Nemo 1:20:12 This is like. This is like the. The US Version of the Office with the whole assistant to the manager. Assistant to the regional manager. Right, Assistant manager. Assistant to the regional manager. It's that subtle difference. And it's just like he keeps going, no, no. Assistant to the regional manager. It's like, you're going to assist me. You won't be a translator. You'll be an assistant translator.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:20:30 It is. And it just shows that Joseph Smith here is, I think, thinking ahead of, like, how do I put him in his place, but also not make him super upset. Like, you want to be like, dude, you don't have the power that I do, but if you stick with me and do what you need to do, you might be able to help later. And I think that really, to me, shows Joseph Smith trying to get himself out of a jam and also making sure he's keeping Oliver basically on board.

Nemo 1:20:51 Because it's. How do people with supreme power keep loyal lieutenants without alienating them? With their power that they claim to have. Sorry, John.

John Dehlin 1:20:58 No, it's good. All right, well, let's go to the next slide, which is a revelation when Joseph's revelations seem poorly written.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:21:05 This is an interesting one from the saints book, and this is one I had never really heard as a member. And so again, as a convert, I miss like, seminary, so I probably maybe would have heard it there. But this is in Saints chapter 13, and it happens when they're basically compiling the original book of commandments. And this is from saints. And I don't know if anybody wants to read that. I can read it too, but otherwise someone wants to read it.

John Dehlin 1:21:28 Go ahead. Okay, I'll go ahead. So starting with the quote there.

Nemo 1:21:33 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:21:33 Just starting with others in the room.

John Dehlin 1:21:34 Others in the room were still reluctant to publish the revelations in their current form. They knew Joseph was a prophet and they knew the revelations were true, but they were embarrassed that the word of the Lord and come to them had come to them. Through Joseph's limited vocabulary and. And weak grammar, the Lord did not share their concern. In his preface, he had testified that the revelations came from him, given to his servants, quote, in their weakness after the manner of their language. Close quote. To help the men know the revelations came from him, he issued a new revelation, challenging the council to select the wisest man in the room to write a revelation of like the ones Joseph had received. If the man selected for the task was unable to do it, everyone in the room would know and be responsible to testify that the Lord's revelations to Joseph were true, despite their imperfections. Taking up a pen, William. I assume that's William Smith, Joseph's brother.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:22:40 William McClellan.

John Dehlin 1:22:41 Oh, William McClellan. Sorry if I missed that previously. Taking up a pen, William tried to write a revelation, confident in his mastery of language. When he finished, though, he and the other men in the room knew what he had written and not knew what he had written and not come from the had not come from the Lord. They admitted their error and signed a statement testifying that the revelations had been given to the prophet by the inspiration of God. That's really interesting. It almost sounds like Joseph kind of threw down. I. It's a crude word, but the word that comes to mind is kind of like a pissing contest. Can you come up with the revelation that everyone in this room is going to like more than mine, you know?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:23:25 Yeah, yeah.

Nemo 1:23:26 But it's really interesting if you pull that back up on screen for a second. Yeah, it's. It's really interesting the way that it it starts by people saying they're concerned that the, they, they, okay, they start from position of believing Joseph was a prophet and that the revelations were true. But, but they were embarrassed with the way that the revelations were written because Joseph's grammar and spelling was probably awful. So they're all complaining about that. And Joseph issues this challenge and goes, fine, get the wisest man and write one like the ones that I write. And so they, he comes at it, William McClellan comes at it trying to write a really flouncy, really nice, very well worded revelation. But it's not going to sound like the ones that they've already admitted are true and come from Joseph. So of course what he writes and isn't going to sound like what they're expecting it to and isn't going to pass muster as a revelation from God because Joseph Smith himself sets that standard. And so he's set them up with a task that they are going to fail. It's a really clever play by him.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:24:27 Yeah. And if you think about it like if the three of us are sitting in a room and I claim to write a revelation from God, both of you are in the room. You know, I'm writing it down as a challenge, so of course you know it's not from God. It really puts you in a position where, yeah, good point, you cannot win. It's like, you know, if you put me in a room with the, you know, the, the 12 or whatever and I'm like, I'm going to write this revelation out from God, it could read a hundred times better than what Joseph Smith writes. But they're all sitting there staring at me, knowing that I'm writing a revelation that's trying to mimic a better revelation from, from Joseph Smith. It really is setting up to fail because everyone in that room is going to know it's fake because the whole contest is to write a fake revelation. It's so ridiculous.

Nemo 1:25:07 And you also haven't had a chance to set up the situation to make this revelation prescient. So you know, you've not created an environment where that is going to be important that you know, this revelation is received. Like you said, it's just taking part in a competition. So it's like saying, well, I challenge you to draw and paint a genuine antique painting so you can't because you're being told to produce something there. And then it's madness in front of people too.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:25:37 I mean, it's ridiculous. And to your point, it's a very clever way to get people to say oh, well, if I know that William McClellan's revelation attempt is not from God, which you of course know, because that's the whole point of the challenge, then therefore, mine is from God. I mean, what a ridiculous.

Nemo 1:25:55 He set up a. Set up a really beneficial false binary there. Exactly where it's like, well, if McClellan's wrong, then I'm right. It's. Well, actually those two things don't work like that. But it's really smart. Really smart.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:26:06 Yeah. Well, it's like saying, if I can't show you. Or I say, nemo, if you can't show me a better pencil than this, then this is actually made of solid gold. It's like, well, no, it doesn't work that way. It's still just a pencil. Joseph Smith's revelations are still poorly written. Revelations that don't make. They have a lot of errors. It doesn't change Joseph Smith's revelations because William McClellan can't convince people in the room that they're from God. It. I just. When I read that story, I kind of laughed because I'm like, of course it's going to make Joseph Smith look better because everyone in the room knows what's happening. It's such a. You know, it's just a. It's a. It's an interesting story that I've seen a lot since then. Since kind of going through saints. And every time I see it, I just kind of like have that weird feeling like, how do people not see this? But. But, you know, to your. From the earlier part of this episode, if you're not looking, if you're looking at. Through the lens of a believer, you're gonna be like, yeah, of course nobody could write as good as Joseph. But when you look at it from just an outside perspective, you're like, yeah, of course he's making it up. Because, you know, this is. This has nothing to do with Joseph. This just has a very clever, you know, parlor trick to make someone fail. It's just the same thing as. It's the exact same thing as setting Oliver Cowdery up to fail. It's just doing it in a. In a room full of people.

Nemo 1:27:16 Sorry, listeners, this is a visual joke. I'm showing Mike a better pencil. This one's German made.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:27:21 Of course you would, Nemo. Of course you would.

John Dehlin 1:27:24 All right, well, let's go. Let's go. And go to the next really good example, which is that of Hiram Page claiming that he's getting revelations with the Seer Stone, which would definitely question or threaten Potentially Joseph's authority. Go ahead, Go ahead, Mike. Let's jump in this one.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:27:41 Okay, so this one is like the. The slide of this whole episode that I was looking forward to because when I read this, I was floored. So in September 1830, Hiram Page found his own seer stone. And he starts claiming that he's receiving revelation through this seer slash, peep stone. Just as Joseph Smith claimed to translate the Book of Mormon that he claimed to see buried treasure with, and that he claimed his early revelations through. So the exact same method, Hiram Page and in the Sukote looked at the stone. It contained a sentence on paper to befit it. As soon as he wrote one sentence, another sentence came on the stone until he had written 16 pages. Sound familiar? So this is exactly how Joseph Smith claims to translate the Book of Mormon and his early revelations. And what's absolutely fascinating is that Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer both believe Hiram Page's revelations. So two of the three witnesses believe that what Hiram paired Hiram Page is writing is revelation from God. So Joseph Smith hears about this and all of a sudden he's in this really tight spot because now his authority is being watered down because Hiram Page has the witnesses to the Book of Mormon believing him. So now he receives a revelation promptly, which is DNC 28, where God tells Joseph Smith that only Joseph Smith can receive the word of God. And it says, but behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church except my servant accepting my servant, Joseph Smith Jr. For he receiveth them even as Moses after. And so he established, now he's establishing his sole authority. And then God continues and says, and again, thou shalt take thy brother Hiram Page between him and thee alone and tell him those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him. And this is the most convenient revelation because Joseph Smith can receive revelation doing the exact same same thing Hiram Page is doing. But Joseph Smith has the charisma to flip it, to basically flip the script on Hiram Page and say, yeah, you are receiving revelation. Because of course he can't say there's no such thing as revelation through a stone because that would out himself. But he's like, you are receiving revelations, but I just, I gotta let you know, Hiram, they're from Satan, whereas mine are from God, So we're gonna have to destroy that stone. And this is also just as a quick side note, the same revelation that commands Oliver Cowdery to go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them at the borders of Missouri. And we now know that DNA shows that the. The Native Americans on the border of Missouri had absolutely nothing to do with coming from Jerusalem. So this is another one where he gets the DNA kind of problem. But more importantly, Hiram Page is doing the exact same thing Joseph Smith does. And two of the three main witnesses believe him.

John Dehlin 1:30:17 I mean, Mike, what we need to do, you know, how. What's the account we took over with the graphics that Craig. Craig used to do?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:30:26 What's missed in Sunday school?

John Dehlin 1:30:28 Sunday School. What we need is a missed in Sunday school graphic that's got, on the one hand, the Book of Commandments revelation with Joseph saying, you know, with God telling Joseph that he'll have no other gift ever other than to translate the Book of Mormon and then juxtapose that with this new revelation later, after Hyrum starts to try and translate where God's basically saying only Joseph Smith will be doing translations. Isn't that just like a ridiculous, bold face contradiction? By God, or am I misreading?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:31:05 I don't mean. Yeah, but I mean, like, it's just. To me, I think the most important thing is that Hiram Page is basically using Joseph Smith's magic trick and everyone's believing him. So when we talked about those earlier episodes about, you know, feel a burning in your bosom, you know, it's true. All the witnesses believe this is true. All two of them. I don't know if the. I don't know if I think Martin Harris was the one who. Who isn't on there. I don't know if Martin Harris heard it and didn't believe it or not. But the point is, you know, we talk about how reliable the witnesses are. Oh, the witnesses believe they sell the gold plates. Well, the witnesses also believe that these are revelations from God. And so Hiram Page is just doing Joseph Smith's trick. And Joseph Smith knows it. He knows how dangerous it is if people understand that it's all about just charisma. Because if. If Hiram Page can receive it in the exact same way he translated the Book of Mormon, then Joseph Smith's authority and his credibility just gets watered down. And so this shows Joseph Smith scrambling and getting an immediate revelation from God to try to squash Hiram Page, and they actually destroy his seer stone because. Or his peep stone, whatever you want to call it, because, you know, because God tells him that. That it's from Satan. And so I just. I feel like this one Just shows so clearly. One, how easy it was to trick the people around Joseph Smith, the witnesses to the Book of Mormon who had a magical worldview, how easily they were to accept things that are obviously ridiculously false, and how Dan Vogel talks a lot about how Joseph Smith's charisma came from the stone. And so when you're, when you're in a confidence game, it's all about the charisma and getting people to believe you have the special power. And this shows what happens when someone else plays Joseph Smith's game and how Joseph then has to use the voice of God to get rid of it. It's just, I think this is the most fascinating revelation and one of the more incredible stories from early church history because it just upends Joseph Smith's claims in a way that is, I think, pretty transparently obvious that he is making it up.

Nemo 1:32:59 And I think it raises the question of what do you do about all the other surrounding influences? We've done an episode on Joseph Smith's surrounding influences, but, for example, you get books like View of the Hebrews and how does Joseph Smith square that with the fact that his story, story is very similar, but that his story is inspired of God and the other is just man made, even though they're very similar. So it's that question of how does he constantly live in the world he lives in? Take from the world he lives in this whole inspired syncretist argument, which is quite apparent, the idea that Joseph Smith did take a lot from what was around him. So Joseph Smith's taking all these things in, but it's always at every turn, how does he say, you've seen that elsewhere, but for me it's legit. You've seen this elsewhere, but for me it's real. You've seen other treasure diggers and they're just fuddy duddies and frauds, but I'm a treasure digger who's actually Inspired of God, etc. Etc. How does he, how does he consistently do that? Consistently distance himself from those things?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:33:54 Yeah, it's amazing too, I guess when you have a believing audience, it's easier to convince them that you do speak for God and therefore, you know, and it's kind of the argument that the church uses a lot today. And we talk, we'll, we'll talk about this in an episode we're going to do after the revelation ones. But when, when they talk about Joseph Smith getting all of these doctrinal ideas from surrounding influences, they'll say, well, those people had a view of the heavens as well. They just didn't have the full view. So Joseph Smith had the full view. So that's why he took it from them or at least had the same ideas that they just happen to have, but his are still from God, even though he's pulling from basically influences right in his backyard. And it's, it's a really weak argument, but. But yeah, that is where they go. Because, like, to your point, how do you try to differentiate the fact that Joseph is pulling all of these contemporary ideas, claiming they're from God, but. But the contemporary ideas are just the, what, the philosophies of men. It's a really tough needle to thread, and I guess that's how they try to do it.

Nemo 1:34:49 So it's where that, that whole idea of they have a part of the truth, but we have the whole of it comes from. Right. Because, you know, you have these other people. You have to. You have to justify why they've got some of the same ideas.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:34:59 Yeah, exactly.

Nemo 1:35:00 Your thoughts, John?

John Dehlin 1:35:02 Well, I'm just going to show. I just created the slide that I wanted to show. When Joseph Smith is producing the Book of Commandments, it writes, and he. Joseph Smith has a gift to translate the book, meaning the Book of Mormon. And I shall have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift. And then long after the Book of Mormon is done, printed, revealed, distributed, then you know, Joseph's power is threatened by Hyrum Page, because now he's starting to be a prophet, seer and revelator. Lo, and behold, new Revelation. For behold, verily I say unto you, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church, excepting my servant, Joseph Smith Jr. For he receiveth them even as Moses. Which is it? Which is a God. It seems like a contradiction.

Nemo 1:35:59 Well, it just goes along with all of Joseph Smith's evolving theology and his evolving view of himself. And I guess with something like this, I would argue, and I could be wrong, but I would argue that all of this was very much. Joseph was like, well, let's see how far I can take it. And as he gets followers and as he gets power and as he gets access to other things and money, he gets a bigger and bigger following. It's like, okay, can I push this further? Because he's got a big imagination, he's got this. He's got. He doesn't lack vision. I don't think Joseph Smith. And so he's like, okay, well, now I could try this I can start a city. Oh, I could be mayor of this city. Okay, well, I could actually be in charge of an army. I could, you know, and it just builds and builds and builds and builds.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:36:38 Yeah. And the thing about Joseph that I always found interesting is that, you know, you start in, you know, I guess you start in New York and then you're in Missouri, you're in Ohio, then you're in Nauvoo. But every time they have to leave, he gets a do over when he's kind of creating the next kind of settlement for the church. And so to your point, Nemo, it's like when he gets to the next place, like, okay, I implemented this in Missouri and it worked out, or Ohio, and now we're in Nauvoo. And I can do this because I know it worked, but I can also fix this mistake here and create this other. This other idea or this like, you know, doing the army or whatever. And it just shows that he is constantly building and, and trying to, I think, in a lot of ways, you know, see how far you could push it, I guess is one way to put it for sure. But it's. He. He knows what he can get away with. And I think that's also why when you look at polygamy and all the proposals to these women, by the time he's doing it, he's already proposed to some women. He knows what things he could say that women gravitate towards too, or ones that they reject. And he crafts his. Can craft his message. Kind of like a salesperson, you know, if you're selling cars, you start to learn what buzzwords to use, what buzzwords not to use. And I think Joseph Smith is doing the same thing here, which is as he's doing these revelations, he's starting to learn what tactics are effective and which ones aren't. And he's getting better and better as he goes, or at least more efficient. Yeah, yeah.

More Examples of Convenient Revelations

John Dehlin 1:37:54 Well, continuing on this theme of Joseph Smith using revelations to get himself out of a jam, let's talk about the next one, which is Joseph Smith not wanting to travel on rough waters.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:38:04 Yeah. And this is another one. You know that as a member, I heard a lot about, you know, why missionaries can't swim because the devil's in the water and that you shouldn't swim on Sunday. And, and so to find this story out was just, again, it's one of those, like, where your jaw hits the floor kind of thing. Because in 1831, Joseph Smith is traveling with 10 others, and they experienced unusually Rough waters. And so Elder William Phelps, WWE Phelps even claimed to see. He claimed to see the destroyer in his most horrible power ride upon the face of the waters. And so they're saying they saw the devil in the waters. And after this happens, Joseph Smith promptly receives a revelation that says that God quote, curse the waters wherefore the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters. Which again, hasn't happened. But, you know, I guess I could say the day hasn't come yet. So God then gives a commandment that Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery should travel by canal in land, and the church would pay for that travel while letting the other eight continue on in the rough, cursed waters. And so basically, you know, it sounds crazy to think about, but God is telling the three of them to take a more comfortable path and the church will pay for it. While letting the other eight travel in the waters that God himself said were cursed and they are out on their own.

Nemo 1:39:15 Why is he picking favorites?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:39:16 Yeah, and it just shows like we're, you know, you've got like a corporation, we got the C. The CEO, the CFO and the COO are taking the private jet, and then the other eight are on a Greyhound with a bunch of people that have like, you know, pocket knives and stuff that they're gonna be, you know, you don't know. You don't know if they're gonna make it. It's just. It's amazing that God is basically saying, yeah, the waters are cursed and it's gonna be soon when no one's gonna be able to travel in the water. So the 80 you are going to have to do it, but the three, I'm going to make sure you're protected. It's just crazy.

Nemo 1:39:41 You know, the worst bit is that the guy who spotted it so Elder Phelps, the guy who's clearly scared of seeing the Destroyer in the water, he's like, yes, Satan's in the water, gets left on the boat. He doesn't go like over land and by canal. He gets left on the boat. So he's the one that seems Zayan. He's like, oh, I guess I'm staying then.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:39:59 Yeah, it's just. It's crazy. And you know, I know I've mentioned this a few times now, but it once again shows how powerless the Mormon version of God is because we are told all these miraculous stories. You part of the Red Sea, you're protected. You're trying to, you know, and yet God can't give a relation revelation that says, you are the chosen church. You are my church. I am going to protect you in the waters. Instead he's like, I'm getting the three of you out of here. The eight of you are on your own. It's just, it's, it's amazing, it's truly amazing that God's, God's choice isn't to calm the water so they can get there safely. It's to basically choose three people, have the church pay for them and then Sunday 8 and just hope they make it. It's just, it, it seriously, it's so cartoonishly transparent that Joseph Smith is getting this revelation to get himself off the waters that basically is scaring the crap out of everybody in the party.

Nemo 1:40:46 It may as well say, and, and behold, the Lord God did say unto his servant, thou dost look a bit green around the gills, thou shouldst walk the rest of the way. It may as well say that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:40:57 Yeah, it's just, it's. John, can you go back to the slide real quick?

John Dehlin 1:41:02 Yeah, yep.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:41:05 And go back one. Yeah, there we go. So it says. And now concerning my servants, Sidney rigdon, Joseph Smith Jr. And Oliver Cowdery, let them come not again upon the waters, save it be upon the canal while journeying unto their homes. Or in other words, they shall not come upon the waters to journey save upon the canal. So God's a little bit wordy there. Behold, I the Lord have appointed a way for the journeying of my saints. And behold, this is the way that after they leave the canal they shall journey by land inasmuch as they are commanded to journey and go up unto the land of Zion. And so basically we already said, but like you said, you know, WWF Phelps claims to see the destroyer riding in the water and Joseph Smith's commandment is to send elder WWF back out on the water for, you know, he's on his own. But that the three of them are going to get basically a premium church paid travel back. It's just, it's such a obvious what's

Nemo 1:41:54 the difference between the canal and the other waters? Like, can Satan not go into man made waterways? Is that, is that what it is?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:42:01 Yeah, I mean it's just, it's like, it's one of those things where you read it now looking at it through that lens of like Joseph Smith using Revelation to kind of better his own situation. And it's just so obvious and it's, you know, again, I hate to keep saying this because I know it to some people, they hate hearing it, but it just shows how Powerless. The Mormon version of God is that the option is to pay to get the three of them off the water as opposed to just calming the water for, for all of these people who are very faithful members of the church who are trying, who are, you know, believe they're being in danger, risking their lives, and, and God is just like, yeah, we're going to get the three of them out, but you guys got to finish the travel on the water. It's just, it blows my mind. It really does.

Nemo 1:42:39 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:42:39 And, and there is a, you know, this, this revelation has had a lasting legacy on Mormonism where Mormon missionaries aren't allowed to go swimming. They're not allowed to, you know, be on boats while they're missionaries unless they get special approval. And in my mission, several missionaries left the mission, went to a different mission, went boating secretly because it was prohibited, and got into a really unsafe situation. The boat capsized and the missionaries died. Of course, in my mission, that was shown as an example of disobedience and of God's prophecies being fulfilled. But maybe if they had just been able to take a scenic boat ride on P Day, that would be safe and monitored, maybe their lives could have been spared. But again, that's just this weird legacy of these sort of convenient, self serving, you know, ideas that Joseph Smith has in the 1830s that are then canonized into scripture and have this unbelievably profound impact on the lives of literally millions of people for a couple centuries as a result.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:43:58 It's just that missionaries cannot swim. And a lot of, I know a lot of families who have said that they were not allowed to swim on Sundays because Joseph Smith was scared of the water. I mean, like, how ridiculous is that? Like, Joseph Smith got scared of rough water and therefore every missionary cannot go into the water because of that. It's just like you said, that those are, you know, our next slide's on the Word of Wisdom. So it's a good transition because those are these legacies of the Mormon Church that happened because Joseph Smith is kind of winging it on these revelations. And so we'll just jump into that. And we covered this. We have an entire episode on the Word of Wisdom. And basically this revelation is the direct result of Emma Smith being upset at the mess being left behind by the men during the School of the Prophets because they're chewing tobacco, they're spitting, they're smoking. And so basically there's a quote from Linda King Newell, who recently passed away in Mormon Enigma, and it says that Emma said it would be a good thing if a revelation could be had, declaring the use of tobacco a sin and commanding its suppression. And so a lot of. I think the. The idea is that Emma's kind of jokingly saying to Joseph, like, it would be really helpful if we stop basically using tobacco because it's disgusting to clean up. And so Joseph, right after Emma makes his comment, dictates the revelation, which is now known as the Word of Wisdom, which was a reflection of the temperance movement, which was happening during Joseph Smith's time in Ohio. And everything, basically, that Joseph Smith writes is coming from contemporary ideas. As we talked about, there's nothing in there that was unknown at the time. There's a lot of bad nutritional ideas. It's a mess. And so the church has continually redefined it because of that. But this is another example where Joseph was getting pressure and yet was able to produce a revelation in the voice of God to address it pretty much immediately. And as you know, like I said, this is a revelation that's full of problems. But it does help him to get out of this jam with Emma, who's really tired of cleaning up tobacco. Even though after the Word of Wisdom, a lot of members drank and smoked still. I mean, Joseph Smith drank up until the time he died. So it didn't completely actually change the behavior, but it did, you know, basically start the path to. To not use tobacco.

John Dehlin 1:46:05 Now, I'm going to channel kind of progressive Mormons here and say, well, what the real problem is that orthodox Mormons have given believing Mormons the wrong idea about what is revelation and how it works. There's that verse in. In the New Testament, I think, by Paul, that we all see through a glass darkly. And, you know, revelations are murky. They're. You know, this would be a progressive Mormon argument. Revelations are murky. And they don't come always top down. Sometimes they come bottom up. And that's actually a feature, not a bug. In other words, maybe it was Emma who was inspired by the Holy Ghost or God to complain to Joseph. And maybe the revelation springing forth from Emma's complaints is actually Emma being part of the revelatory process and God working in mysterious ways or even in inspired, grassroots ways to achieve, you know, his ultimate ambitions. What, you know, Nemo or. What would you say about that?

Nemo 1:47:14 The cynic in me wants to say, Joseph wanted to stop Emma complaining. And so, you know, you can see the scenario. He's in bed, she's like, oh, it'd be great if, you know, God could get a revelation. That meant I didn't have to clean up your rubbish all the time. And he's like, let me see what I can do. And then retires to a special revelation room and gets the revelation. Like, that's what the cynic in me says. But I agree that a healthier way to view this from a believing perspective is 100% that God's prophets cannot be expected to get this all the time. And if, if listening to members of the church who have their concerns can then cause a prophet to go to God and get revelation, that helps with the concerns of those members, that is a far healthier way to approach revelation and to approach the role of prophets. It's far more ethical for lots of members of the church to say there's a problem with abuse in the church right now. It'd be great if God could have something to say about that. It'd be great if God had a revelation to say that, you know, we need to do something about this. And then Russell M. Nelson gets his yellow legal pad out and his special light up pen and gets a revelation from God that we need to start, you know, doing more things to safeguard children. That would be a far better use of prophets and a far healthier way to approach revelation in the church, I would think. Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:48:28 Yeah, I mean, so what John is saying is a lot of similarities to the catalyst theory of the Book of Abraham, which is to say that Joseph Smith sees these scrolls and that gives him the catalyst to receive this revelation, which is the Book of Abraham. Right. And so the idea is that Emma, in a lot of ways is the catalyst for Joseph to go to God and say, what do we do with tobacco and whatnot? And God says, I am so glad you asked. Here's the thing. My counter to that would be that if Emma is the catalyst, you should still see things in the word of wisdom that hold up through the test of time. You should still see God saying, and verily, verily, I say unto my servant Joseph that the water is unsafe to drink unless it has been properly boiled. You know, again, God can tell Joseph that the waters are too rough to, to ride in, but can't tell him to boil them to clean it. And so my point is, I, I think it would be a great thing if prophets could go to God when they have a catalyst from member concerns, or in this case, his wife's concern. But you should still see something in the revelation that reflects something beyond a limited worldview. That, that is basically the temperance movement of the 1830s. That would be my, my Response to that.

John Dehlin 1:49:37 Yeah, yeah. And I would just say that there's the. There's the bait and switch problem because Mormons are raised and Mormon investigators are taught that, like, Mormon prophets are like Moses. They're like Abraham where Moses goes up to Mount Sinai and God hands him, you know, tablets, and then the finger of God comes out of heaven and writes the Ten Commandments. You know, that's the value proposition of Mormonism. And if really what's happening is, is that like average Joe or Sally member makes a. Makes a complaint, and somehow the prophet decides whether or not it should become revelation. And then sometimes it does and sometimes, sometimes it doesn't. And then sometimes it's just policy, you know, or it's reversed later. And then sometimes it's canonized, but then sometimes it's de. Emphasized. It's kind of a mambi pamby, weak sauce sort of re remixing of revelatory claims that's really watered down from the more stronger value proposition that many of us were indoctrinated into. That's my view.

Nemo 1:50:54 Yeah. Yep.

Using Revelation to Compel Emma's Acceptance of Polygamy

John Dehlin 1:50:55 All right, well, let's go to the next slide, which is using God's voice to convince Emma to allow Joseph's polygamy. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:51:02 And so we covered polygamy and the idea that Joseph was using those commandments to get women to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. But it also fits into getting him out of a jam, which is in this case. You know, Emma obviously is not happy about this idea that Joseph Smith is marrying and having sex with other women, which, I mean, we could all understand why that is. And from the polygamy episodes we did and from the church's essay, there's a small window of time when Emma is allowing Joseph to marry and have sex with. With four other women, the Partridge sisters and the Lawrence sisters. And of course, as we now know, two of them were already secretly married to Joseph behind Emma's back. So polygamy is a complete mess. But the entire purpose of DNC132 being produced was that Hyrum Smith goes to Joseph and says, if you can write this revelation down, I can. You know, surely Emma will see the. The righteousness in it. And Joseph says something like, you do not know Emma as I do, or whatever. And so, you know, he writes, dictates this revelation in one sitting. It's a 3200 word revelation off the top of his head. And he writes this in order to try to get Emma to back off by using the voice of God to threaten her. That should be destroyed if she did not allow her husband to marry and have sex with other younger women. And ultimately, it doesn't appear that Emma was receptive to this revelation because she does not accept polygamy. But it does not change the fact that Joseph Smith dictates this revelation with the sole purpose of trying to get himself out of a very tense spot in his marriage with his first and only legal wife, Emma. And this fits the pattern in this episode, in a lot of our episodes, that Joseph Smith is going to use the voice of God to create a revelation that are ultimately very concerned with getting Joseph Smith out of a tight spot. And so this is why we say getting himself out of a jam, because these revelations ultimately are written with the purpose of trying to fix or solve a problem that Joseph Smith is having.

John Dehlin 1:52:54 Yeah. And I want to refer everyone again explicitly to our DNC132 episode, which I think is number 25 on our list. But it's just so stark and it's just so obvious that Joseph's 22 wives in he's violating the law of Sarah that he ends up generating. And Emma's super pissed that. That he's been lying to her and secretly marrying all these women and she's flipping out. And it's just. It makes no sense, you know, God. We talk about this in the DNC 132 episode. But. But we were all taught that God, God, you know, God's house is a house of order. And it just makes zero sense that God would come up with DNC132, the revelation on polygamy only after Joseph Smith had already married 22 women. And then. And then use such coercive language, like six different times he tells Emma she's going to be destroyed if she doesn't let Joseph be a polygamist. And then cowardly, you know, Joseph has Hyrum deliver the revelation to Emma. There's just nothing. There's just nothing seemingly godless or courageous about that whole story. And if you understand the story of DNC132, I don't know any other way to interpret it than. Than Joseph getting himself out of a bind. Because the way it should have happened if God was a God of order, is that in Kirtland, you know, 1834, in. In. Yeah, in Kirtland, prior to Fanny Alger, when the Book of Commandments, God would have never allowed section 101 of the book of Commandments to ever be put in there, which stayed in the Book of Commandments for how long? Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:54:53 I think until like the 1870s, I believe, is when they switched it out.

John Dehlin 1:54:56 I think there's no way God would have allowed a section into the Doctrine and covenants for 50 years that condemned polygamy and then 22 wives in to a practice that God had condemned in Scripture. He was going to have Emma get pissed and then magically Joseph receive a revelation to then coerce Emma into allowing it. He would have just had an original revelation in the original Book of Commandments. That was the polygamy revelation or the new and everlasting covenant that wasn't threatening Emma with destruction. That would have laid out the process to begin with, and then Joseph Smith would have started practicing it. That's the only way that any God that I am willing to obey or worship or respect is going to do things. Not in this, forgive me, cluster F way that it ended up happening. The only reasonable way. And I've even had like one of the church's top faithful scholars and apologists, Patrick Mason, overtly and explicitly say just a few months ago that to him, Joseph Smith's polygamy looks a lot like sin. Meaning that DNC 132 should be removed from the canon. That's the only way I think, a reasonable, ethical person who's logical can justify DNC132. It's Joseph's attempt to get out of a bind when Emma's pissed and he's caught with his hand in the polygamy slash, in the polygamy slash sex cookie jar where he's been deceiving Emma. Nemo, did you have anything you want to say?

Nemo 1:56:47 Well, while we're at it, let's remove that section that details just how much of a share I can buy in Joseph Smith Navu Mansion House while we're cleaning up Doctrine and Covenants. I think that's why it's really interesting. I've got a copy here of Community of Christ. Christ Doctrine and Covenants. Yeah. Which is quite fascinating to look through in just how it differs from that of the Brighamite sect. And I think actually that could do like the doctrine Covenants could do with a bit of a bit of a cleanup along with an admission of why it's being done. Because if they just go through and quietly chop stuff out, then that's just. I mean, that's LDS 101 is to just change things. It's, in my opinion, it's a slight tangent, but it's the reason that the handbook has gone online. It's my personal opinion, the reason the Handbook is online is so that changes can be made to it. And there's no record of what it was previously. And people will just assume that that's the way it always was. There's no physical copies to trace back now.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:57:43 Yeah, yeah. The one thing I'll Note is that DNC101 that condemned polygamy was not written by Joseph Smith. And so they wrote that and published it, I think, in the times and season when Joseph was gone, because there were already rumors of Joseph Smith and people in the church taking other wives. But to your point, when they put the DNC together, obviously they put that in there. And so Joseph approved it, you know, and so that's, that's where you see kind of we talked about earlier, where you have leaders of the church who are intentionally deceiving and lying to the members in order to keep the truth from them. And in the early days was polygamy in 2023, obviously it's, it's the. The wealth of the church and, and some aspects of church history, but yeah, it's, you know, whatever way you want to look at it. DNC101 being in the Doctrine and Covenants is. Is deceptive, even if the actual text was not claimed to have been coming directly from God.

John Dehlin 1:58:38 Yeah. All right, well. And Mike, I'm going to change the order up just super slightly because I think the last one is. Is a category maybe of its own a little bit. So if it's all right, let's go ahead and go to the next category of problematic Joseph Smith revelations, which is Joseph Smith coming up with revelations to fit his own evolving theology. Can we do that one next? Is that.

Failed Prophecies and Biblical Errors in Revelation

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:59:06 Yeah, that's fine. And we did a whole episode on this, so if you are interested, I highly recommend that, because we're not going to go over them all here. And so basically the point we're going to make with this slide is to say that there are many very important revelations that Joseph Smith is going to make significant changes to after they're originally recorded, with many of them lining up with the needs of Joseph Smith at a given time to increase his authority, which would include the priesthood restoration. Those revelations were changed heavily to line up with Joseph Smith when they added the Melchizedek priesthood. The vision of, you know, the appearance of Peter, James and John, all of that. Those are all late additions. And the changing first vision accounts, I realize those aren't revelations, but more accounts of visions, those were changed. And the one John mentioned earlier, which, which I think is a really good Example to show here, which is that Joseph Smith claims through an early revelation that God will grant him no other gift after the Book of Mormon is translated. And so basically the idea is that Joseph Smith has the power to translate the Book of Mormon and nothing else. And so when they produce the Doctrine and covenants in 1835, that revelation has changed. And so they add four words to the end of it. And so originally it says, and you have a gift to translate the plates, and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you. And I've commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this, for I will grant you no other gift until it is finished. And so this change in this revelation in the DNC is completely flipping upside down the original revelation, which basically says, I'm going to give you this one gift to translate, and that's it. Nothing else ever. And because he then starts to see the value and utility, I think, in these revelations, he has to go back and change it, because otherwise people, when they put the DNC together, are going to say, well, your original revelation says you shouldn't be able to do any of this. And so, like I said, I highly recommend watching the episode on the changes to the dnc, because this is something that's a pattern where Joseph Smith is going back and changing him. And in a lot of ways, it matches his evolving needs and his evolving theology.

John Dehlin 2:01:13 Excellent. Anything you want to add, Nemo?

Nemo 2:01:15 It's just. It's bad. It was bad etiquette then, and it's bad etiquette. To do it in the comments section on Facebook now is to go back and edit your comments to try and change how you look, to make things look better. People have always tried to do it, clearly, but stop doing it, please.

John Dehlin 2:01:30 I do that all the time, but I never do it to deceive anyone. It's more like I write a post or a comment too quickly. Like I'm in the bathtub and I. I feel passionate and I write something and then I. And then like, people, you know, I. I think about it more. I want to add something or like, people give feedback. I don't do it to deceive. I do it just.

Nemo 2:01:51 Well, that's chill. If you, like, put edit or whatever and you tell people that you've edited it, but just changing your comment and then be like, huh, You've just argued against something that I never wrote.

John Dehlin 2:02:00 It's like, come on, guys, that's not good. That's not good.

Nemo 2:02:02 Yeah, don't do it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:02:03 Just Yep. And that's the thing, like, to your point, Nemo, this was done without any fanfare. And so if you read the DNC today, you're like, oh, that makes sense that God told Joseph he wouldn't have any other power until it was finished. But that's not what it said. And so Joseph is arbitrarily making this change. And so it's a big red flag that Joseph Smith is, one, the author of these words, and two, feels very free to change them whenever he needs to. And. And so that episode goes into a lot of revelations that were changed, and for the sake of time, we're not going to do that today. But if you have not watched that, I highly recommend it because it really does give us a really good window into how Joseph Smith is creating not just the revelations, but how he's able to change them later without members really even understanding the significance and importance of the changes.

Nemo 2:02:46 Yeah, I guess my point with that was it's like, we know that sort of behavior is skeevy and Joseph should get a pass on it just because he's Joseph Smith.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:02:54 And nobody would give that same pass if it was another leader. Like, if it's Warren Jeff or even if it's a. A Catholic leader, any leader who claims to have authority from God and is making these massive changes. If you're a believing member of this church, you're not going to be like, oh, Warren Jeff's made. Oh, yeah, that. That makes sense. I mean, why. Why wouldn't God change his mind? You'd be like, no, he made it up. But then when you look at this, you're like, but. But ours is different. It's like, no, it's not. It's. It's the exact. You have to view it the same way you view anyone else. And then you start to see it because it's very obvious once you take away that lens of like, you know, like, I talk about equations, like, if your equation ends with the church is true, then every variable variable you put in there is going to lead to the church is true. But if you change that equation to just no predetermined conclusion, you read this stuff and you're like, yeah, he was making it up. Because otherwise, either God doesn't mind his words being changed in the most significant ways, or justice making it up, you can't really have it both ways.

John Dehlin 2:03:51 Yeah, and this is going to be. But just to close out this section of changing revelations to fit Joseph Smith's evolving theologies. This is repetitive. There's no Better example of this, in my mind. No more important example than the changes between what the Book of Mormon says about polygamy and then what Book of commandments or DNC section 101, the old version used to say about polygamy, prohibiting it, and then DNC 132 coming along. That is the most blatant and significant changing revelation, you know, based on his revolving theology.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:04:29 Yeah. If you want to make that, if you want to make that a quad, you could do Book of Mormon on polygamy, DNC101, DNC132. And then the part about the happiness letter where he talks about those who call an abomination know heaven only the order of heaven. Only in part, because those four just show you this just completely linear destruction of the entire concept of the. Of the early church. And. And it just shows how Joseph Smith is willing to just bulldoze.

John Dehlin 2:04:56 Yeah.

Nemo 2:04:56 The scripture, God himself, because God himself called it an abomination in scripture. So he's saying God himself only knows the order of heaven. In part.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:05:03 Yeah.

Nemo 2:05:03 So what do you do with that? Yep.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:05:05 And that's just it. So I, I did an image about that, like, maybe a month ago, and I think there were a few people that were like, that's not fair, because Happiness Letter isn't canonized. We. But it's like. But it's still showing how Joseph Smith is willing to take the word of God and just completely demolish it. I mean, there's no way around it. And so in order to accept him as a prophet, you have to reconcile what's happening with that.

John Dehlin 2:05:25 And it doesn't just stop with Joseph, because then you've got the Journal of Discourses through the mid to late 19th century where all these prophets and revelators are saying that polygamy is required for exaltation. Right. And then you've got the official declaration, the, you know, and the second official declaration, two separate times. See, you know, you know, ceasing the practice of polygamy. And you've got the John Taylor letter, which is telling, you know, this. This secret tribe of Mormons in southern Utah to keep practicing it. So, I mean, the polygamy example, there probably needs to be a book about the outrageous evolution of polygamy theology, because it's a really good test case for how they're really just making stuff up.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:06:17 They are. I mean, they are. And that's just it. Our next episode is going to be on Joseph Smith's more Failed Revelations. The episode after that, we're going to look at revelations after Joseph Smith, and we're going to cover that John Taylor revelation. When you put that into the puzzle along with these other ones, it just shows that this is all, you know, at the end of the day, revelations from leaders is basically what they either think God would want or what they want from their own worldview in the voice of God. And you could see that in John Taylor's revelation, because I think it's three and a half or four years after he, After God supposedly says, you know, what part of new and everlasting do you not get? They're going to end it. Which just shows you, you know, how much of this. And it also shows you again how powerless God is. Because if this is truly a new and everlasting covenant and God is going to allow the US Government to be the ones to end it, that seems like a God that doesn't have a lot of power. But the point is, it also shows that the people who claim to speak for God are not speaking for God because it's just not happening the way they say it will.

Nemo 2:07:17 And pulling it back contemporarily, God couldn't stop the US government from fining the church for doing wrong things. So he is powerless against the US Government time and time again, it seems.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:07:28 Yeah, it does seem that way. And we'll get to that in the next episode too, because that's another area where the church makes a lot of. Joseph Smith made some prophecies about, about the US Government that, that obviously fail. And it just shows again, when you are not in control of a situation. Your. Your track record, Joseph Smith's track record is, is pretty bad.

John Dehlin 2:07:45 Okay, well, let's go to the last section for today's episode. And that is going to be Biblical errors in revelation, which again, is problematic, right? Yeah, but it's less about revelations of convenience. Or maybe it is. So. Mike, take it away.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:08:02 Well, yeah, in this case, it actually is about convenience too, because in D&C132, and we've talked about this in our earlier episodes, so we won't go into it too much, but Joseph Smith makes sure to note that God commanded Abraham to enter into polygamy. And so from DNC132, it says God commanded Abraham and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law. And from Hagar sprang many people. This therefore was fulfilling, among other things, the promises. Was Abraham therefore under condemnation? Verily, I say unto you, nay, for I the Lord commanded it. And the Problem is, God never commands Abraham to enter into polygamy. It was Sarah who told Abraham to take Hagar to have a child. At no point in the Bible does Abraham get any commandment from God to do it. And so this is an instance where Joseph Smith is attempting to backdate his revelation in order to tie it into something ancient. So in this case, the Old Testament is being used as a justification for polygamy that he's implementing in the 1840s by basically inserting into the text something that's not there. And so this is a pretty easy example of showing how Joseph Smith is willing to change existing scripture basically to meet his current needs and desires and uses the voice of God to do it. Even though the Bible completely undercuts the entire premise of DNC 132, just because

John Dehlin 2:09:18 Abraham practiced polygamy doesn't mean God commanded Abraham to practice polygamy, right?

Nemo 2:09:24 No.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:09:24 Well, no. And it's just not in there. Like, you know, DNC132 cites like, what, four or five people that are. That God commanded into polygamy or that he justifies. But nowhere in the Bible does God command anyone. Except for in one small case where it's about basically taking care of someone's sister, I think. But in no point in the Bible is what Joseph Smith is saying, is it in the Bible. And so from an apologetic standpoint, they'll say, well, God did command Abraham. It just didn't get written into the Bible. But that. That's going down a slope. That. That is indistinguishable from fraud. Joseph Smith here is making a claim that is contradicted by the Bible, and it shows that he's doing so in order to meet his immediate needs.

John Dehlin 2:10:03 Yeah. All right, Nemo, anything, Anything you want to add to that?

Nemo 2:10:07 I'm just. I was just trying to really quickly dive through the footnotes because it's interesting that the church has footnoted to Genesis 2, Genesis 16, when it says that God commanded Hagar. So I invite those that are watching to do a careful reading of the Scriptures and see if the church, in its footnotes, when it sends you to Genesis, is actually sending you to a verse that says God commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife. And I think you'll probably find that's not what the verse says.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:10:35 Yep. Yeah, you always follow the footnotes because there are a lot of those where they. They give you the citation. So in your mind, you're like, oh, they've got citation. It's good. Then you click on It. It's like, that's not saying at all what they claim it is, and in some cases completely undercuts their case. And so, yeah, it just shows that Joseph Smith, just as he completely undermines the Book of Mormon about polygamy here, he's going to undermine the Old Testament because he needs to have some justification in the Bible in order to claim he's restoring it, but it's not there.

John Dehlin 2:11:03 Yeah. All right. Well, we're finally at the last slide of today's presentation. It's basically Elias and Elijah in the Kirtland Temple.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:11:12 Yeah, and this is one we've talked about before as well. But in the Kirtland Temple, Joseph Smith claims to see both Elias and Elijah in the same vision. And so in our priesthood restoration over here on the website, we just point out that In March of 1836, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery claim a vision in the Kirtland Temple, where they receive additional priesthood keys from Moses, Elias and Elijah. This claim gives them an ultimate authority in the church, but does not come without problems. Elias and Elijah are actually the same person, even though Joseph treats them as separate beings. Elias is the Hebrew translation and Elijah is the Greek translation. And so, you know, the apologetics is that Elias is a forerunner in the Church's scriptures and thus would be a separate being. But that is something that is almost exclusively Mormon apologetics. And so if you Google Elias as a forerunner, almost every hit you're going to see is basically from the church trying to make that argument. And the reason that the forerunner argument comes mostly out of necessity is because no other religion needs them to be separate beings, because there's no vision that requires it. There's no one who claims they're the same people and makes that mistake. And so, you know, these are errors that leave Joseph Smith's fingerprints all over these revelations. And, you know, it would be another thing. I didn't want to go into too many slides on this, because we've talked about these before, but Joseph Smith has many revelations that cite Adam and Eve as literal historical people and that lived in Missouri. And we have plenty of evidence that shows that the Adam and Eve story was a late addition to the Pentateuch when it was being compiled. We did an entire episode on that. And so these are the areas where Joseph Smith is taking this literalness from the Bible and basically enforcing it into these revelations from God. And so an apologetic standpoint would be to say, well, God spoke to Joseph as he understood it, and therefore he was kind of like just going along with what Joseph said, because that's how Joseph would be more comfortable. But that, again, just gets you down a road that I don't think Joseph Smith would ever have agreed to. And it just shows that Joseph Smith didn't always understand some of these, you know, ideas he was working with. And Elias and Elijah are the perfect example because it would, you know, be, I mean, trying to think of, like, the Spanish translation of. Of John or something. And you'd say you saw both these people. It's just. It doesn't work.

Nemo 2:13:27 Yeah, it'd be like a German saying they saw John and Johannes. It's like, yeah, they're the same person.

John Dehlin 2:13:33 Yeah, or g. Or Jesus and Joshua. Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:13:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And one other thing they'll say is they'll say Elias was the. John the Baptist was the forerunner. Right. So Elias is really John. John was a forerunner. And what's funny is in the Gospel of John, I think he actually, at one point it says like, no, I'm not. And not only that, but Joseph Smith claims he saw John before. So if Elias was just simply a title for John, but he'd already met John, wouldn't he just be like, yeah, I was met by Elijah and John the Baptist. It wouldn't make sense to. To kind of go that route. So those apologetics just have a lot of problems once you actually dive into what they're saying, because they don't add up. And as we've talked about, when you compile one on top of the other, on top of the other, you're just, you know, you're just getting into this area where you're basically creating this new reality to try to fit the. The ultimate equation, which is that the church has to be true. And so, as Kerry Molstein would. Would argue, I take whatever I find and I fit it into that equation. But that's not how. That's not how the world works. You can't. You can't just ignore what you don't like because it's will make you uncomfortable in your belief in the church. And so in these cases, Joseph Smith is making very simple errors from a biblical scholarship standpoint, but he's doing it in the voice of God, which compounds the problem that he just doesn't understand. Either Joseph Smith doesn't understand or God doesn't understand, or God's allowing Joseph to put bad doctrine out there. None of these are real good outcomes.

John Dehlin 2:14:56 Yeah. All right, well, that kind of concludes this episode on problematic revelations by Joseph Smith. I think that we could probably find hundreds and hundreds more examples of this, but this at least begins to provide some categories for looking at and understanding these sorts of problems. And it provides several really good and clear examples. But we're not even done yet with covering the topic of Revelations, Mike, because what's next?

Closing Thoughts and What Comes Next

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:15:31 Yeah, so originally we were gonna have four episodes. We're now gonna have five because we split this one. So the next episode is going to be on Joseph Smith's Revelations that failed, and that is going to be really important. It's also going to have some overlap from this one, where you see Joseph Smith having these motivated reasonings for giving revelations, but then the prophecies fail. Then we're gonna have an episode that's going to be on the revelations from after Joseph Smith to today. And then we'll have one more episode that's going to cover personal revelation, patriarchal blessings, and that kind of stuff. So we've got a lot of stuff on Revelation because it's so important to kind of understanding. You know, I think John would say the value proposition of Mormonism is ongoing revelation, ongoing restoration, and being able to kind of look at that and see, like, is, is it historically accurate? Is it. Does it hold up? Are the other prophecies coming to fruition or are they failing? These are things that every member should know. Even if it makes you uncomfortable in the process. We should be able to look at it and say, did this happen? And if it didn't, what does that tell us about Joseph Smith's credibility as a prophet? So we've got a lot left to go with Revelation. And our next episode, I think, will be a really good one, just because it'll look at a lot of the areas where Joseph Smith made testable claims and we can now go through and test them.

John Dehlin 2:16:42 I love it. Nemo, let's give you a final chance to get to give a final word and please plug Nemo the Mormon and I'll just tell everyone, please donate to Nemo. I'll say it. Nemo is Nemo has, is working to become or is becoming an independent content provider and podcaster and YouTuber in the space. And he needs your support. So please subscribe to the Nemo the Mormon YouTube channel and Nemo. Do people become monthly donors to you through Patreon or through Donor Box?

Nemo 2:17:15 How do you do?

John Dehlin 2:17:17 Okay, where do they find that link

Nemo 2:17:19 to become a donorbox.org Nemo the Mormon. This is about as simple as you can get, but it's all over my channel and everywhere like that.

John Dehlin 2:17:27 Are people starting to sign up.

Nemo 2:17:28 Yeah, yeah, some people have already been signing up. It's been really positive. It's been really helpful in helping move things forward. So yeah, yeah, I really appreciate it.

John Dehlin 2:17:37 Your channel's doing great work. So. All right, Nemo. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

Nemo 2:17:41 Thank you very much for having me. It's been a pleasure as always. I really enjoy these discussions.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:17:45 Thank you, Nemo.

John Dehlin 2:17:46 All right. And Mike, thanks. Thanks so much. We really love all you do for us.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:17:50 Thanks everybody for watching sitting through these

John Dehlin 2:17:54 and I'll just end as I began. Number one please subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast, YouTube channel or follow us on Facebook. That's really important for the algorithms. Please donate to MormonStories.org we want to start paying Mike for for his work and even maybe for his back work, and your contributions are going to make that possible. I may even set up an LDS Discussions fund for people to start donating. But please support us if you can so we can have Mike back doing more good things and make sure people get compensated for their work. I'll also remind you that you can check out the LDS Discussions the full up to this point, 36 episodes in either on Spotify under the LDS Discussions brand in audio or video format or it's integrated into the Mormon Stories Podcast feed. Or you can go to Apple Podcast app to watch LDS Discussion stuff in succession. Or you can go to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel, click on the playlist for LDS discussions and watch all these episodes in sequence. But please share this and if you want to, just read these amazing essays that Mike has compiled along with many others, including an analysis of the Saints book and how it's not fully honest. You can go to LDSDiscussions.com and check out those episodes, so stay tuned for more. We've got at least another 10 or 20 LDS discussions episodes to come and then maybe we'll see what else mischief people like Mike and Nemo and others can provide both on Mormon Stories podcast on another and on other channels. So anyway, thanks everybody. Please be good to each other. Please be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast and LDS Discussions Podcast and Nemo the Mormon. Take care everybody.

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