Polygamy & Abortion in Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo – John C. Bennett Pt 2 w/ LDS Discussions Ep. 50

Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin 0:00 Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast, LDS Discussions Edition. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is January 10, 2024. Happy New Year. And we are excited to bring back in 2024 the LDS discussion series. For those of you don't know what that is, this amazing co panelist Mike put up a website called LDS Discussions a few years back sharing his analysis of Mormon church truth claims. And it's a series that's got, I don' 40 or 50 episodes now and it's well loved. And today we're going to be covering part two of a three part series on Joseph Smith's puppet or right hand man in Nauvoo, John C. Bennett. Last LDS discussions episode we talked about the rise and fall of John C. Bennett and him acting as Joseph Smith's puppet in Nauvoo as mayor and, and as you know, head of the legion and head of the university and all the different jobs that he had. Today we're going to be talking about his involvement in spiritual wifery or polygamy and the scandalous question or allegation that he was an abortionist in Nauvoo, which speaks to, you know, this question of birth control and polygamy and can even touch for some on the topic of, you know, why didn't Joseph Smith have offspring if he had sex with his polygamous wives? And of course one of the possibilities is, is that abortions are being performed. So we're going to look at the evidence and the data for that and you can decide whether you think that's plausible. So that's what we're in store for today. We're so grateful to have you with us and we're also grateful to have with us an amazing group of panelists. We have Mike, the original jefe of LDS discussions. Hey M. Hey everybody.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:57 How's it going?

John Dehlin 1:58 Welcome back. Thanks for joining us.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:00 Yeah, it's nice to be back. And like I said last time, it's nice because Julia's put all this good work in and so it's fun to be able to kind of be on like the, the, the side seat here and kind of watch it because it's, it's actually been helpful to me because I have not spent a lot of time on this. This is, this is fun.

John Dehlin 2:15 Yeah. Well, it's great to have you. We also have Nemo back. Hey, Nemo.

Nemo 2:19 Hello. Hello.

John Dehlin 2:20 Nemo is the Nemo, the Mormon guy. Check out his YouTube channel.

Nemo 2:24 Officially the same age as Mike from LDS discussions. Now just wanted to get that out there. We're both 27 years old. That's the.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:32 That's.

Nemo 2:32 Yeah, Mike's 27. That's. That's canon. That's canon. Now, if only Mike is 27 years old.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 2:39 Yeah, if only. I feel about. About triple that right now.

John Dehlin 2:43 All right, well, glad to have you both back. And we're excited to have, as a new addition, a new addition to our panel and. And as a researcher who does a lot of great work for Mormon stories, Julia. Hey, Julia.

Julia 2:56 Hi.

John Dehlin 2:57 This is your series, so we're glad to have you. All right. And Julia, you're the one. You're the one who was tasked with doing the research for this episode, so we're just really great to have you, and we've got lots of good feedback about you as a new panelist on the show.

Julia 3:13 That's really good.

John Dehlin 3:14 We're glad to have you. All right, well, last, Last. Last time we left off on the Rise and Fall of John C. Bennett, but there's so much on this guy that we needed to split this up into three.

Recap of John C. Bennett's Rise and Fall

Julia 3:24 Yeah, yeah. So some of the things that we're going to say at the beginning are sort of like just reminders from the last one because they carry on into this, and they're important. So. So some of these might be reviewed, but that's.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 3:35 Okay.

John Dehlin 3:35 Good.

Julia 3:36 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 3:36 Well, let's.

John Dehlin 3:36 Let's jump into it.

Julia 3:37 Okay, perfect. So I just wanted to remind everybody that the books that I'm getting everything from, this information is from his biographer, Andrew F. Smith, and he wrote the book the Saintly Scoundrel, the Life and times of Dr. John C. Bennett. And so that's where a lot of this is coming from. And the other, of course, the other book is his. His expose, but so he left off whenever he was excommunicated. I think the main push for him being excommunicated is the sexual allegations against him. And so on the 17th of May of 1842, having been acquitted, so people are accusing him of having intercourse with several females and that he was seducing them. And so that's one of the reasons why he was. Why he was excommunicated and eventually kicked out of the church. So I just wanted to remind people of that.

John Dehlin 4:17 Okay.

Julia 4:17 And then. So I also wanted to remind everyone that we talked about this last time, but on 17 May, he signs a statement that was already written and that he never did, that Joseph Smith did never teach him in private that an illicit illegal intercourse with females was under any circumstances, justifiable so again, Joseph Hanson, this paper is saying, you know, that John C. Bennett didn't come up with this. That it was. Or that Joseph didn't come up with this. It was all John's idea. And he just signs it. Um, so again, we'll see this practice in the Mormon Church where they give you a statement that's already been written, and you just sign it. So.

John Dehlin 4:54 And. And Julia, some. Some. One piece of feedback is they want us to slow down a tiny bit sometimes when we read stuff. So I'm going to read that again. He never did teach to me in private that an illegal illicit intercourse with females was under any circumstances justifiable. So he's testifying that Joseph never taught him that multiple sexual partners was okay. Is that what that's saying?

Julia 5:18 Exactly. Yeah. So he. He's just saying it was all this spiritual wifery is all my idea. It wasn't Joseph's. And. And I'm signing to that.

John Dehlin 5:25 Okay.

Julia 5:26 So. Yeah.

John Dehlin 5:26 Okay. All right.

Bennett's Exposé and Polygamy Claims

Julia 5:27 Okay. So now we're going to talk about. So. So there's two parts that I want to talk about in this episode. And then we're covering polygamy, and then. And then the abortions, of course. So this is the first section that we're going to talk about is just polygamy.

Nemo 5:36 Okay.

Julia 5:37 So in 1842, he writes very quickly. It only takes him a month or so to write his expose on the history of Mormonism or the Joseph Smith and Mormonism. And so that's where a lot of this is coming from. And so does somebody want to read this first one where he. He. So he leaves Nauvoo and then he signs a statement. Does somebody want to read the second paragraph?

John Dehlin 5:56 Yeah, Julie, you just assign the person. You can assign whoever you want.

Julia 6:00 Nemo, do you want to read that one?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 6:02 Sure.

Nemo 6:02 Can I just say something real quick before I read that? It's the. The interesting thing is, you know, you said how he signed a statement that was already written. It's interesting. The speed with which he wrote this expose might indicate that he'd already started writing it before he was sort of on his way out, as it were. If it's a fairly long expose that comes out very quickly.

Julia 6:23 Well, so one thing that his biographer points out is that a lot of it is. Are statements from newspapers or statements from other people. And so a lot of it. A lot of the bulk of his book is not his own writing. It's just what he's pulling from other people. So that could be a reason, too. But yeah. He could have very well been having this in his head.

Nemo 6:37 Just a thought.

Julia 6:38 Yeah, that's true.

Nemo 6:39 Yeah. I'll read this thing.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 6:40 That's fine.

Nemo 6:41 Okay. You'll recall that before he left Nauvoo, Bennett signed a testimony saying that Joseph Smith did not teach or believe in the spiritual wife doctrine. Bennett later claimed that he was forced to sign under duress and that his statement was false. He claimed that Joseph Smith met with him in the Nauvoo Lodge, locked the door, put the key in his pocket, and drew a pistol on me and said, the peace of my family requires that you should sign an affidavit and, and make a statement exonerating me from all participation, whatever, in the spiritual wife doctrine or private intercourse with females in general. And if you do not do it with an apparent cheerfulness, I will make catfish bait of you or deliver you over to the Danites for execution tonight. That's pleasant.

John Dehlin 7:23 Wow.

Julia 7:24 Yeah.

John Dehlin 7:25 I've never heard that before. This is brand new to me.

Julia 7:28 Yeah. So later on we'll see his biographer's take on this. But I just think that's interesting where you see this practice with Joseph and other women, with, like, Martha Brotherton or whatever, where he does lock them in the room and he has the key, and then he, he tries to force whatever he's wanting onto this person.

John Dehlin 7:45 And we know that when he was martyred, he had a gun with him that he fired into the oncoming crowd. So we know he carried. He packed heat. And we know that he had a tendency to lock people into a room alone to kind of threaten them. And we know the day nights are real. So, I mean, they're, the components seem to be there. What do you think, Mike?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 8:09 I mean, I, I, I don't buy a lot of what John C. Bennett says, especially when he kind of gets into these stories, because I feel like this is someone like, if you. Oh, my God, if we did this in previous episodes, when we talked about how Joseph Smith would take kind of like these little fragments of other writings and incorporate them into something he's working on, I kind of feel like John C. Bennett is taking some of what he knows to be true, like the Danites, and he already knows a story about Martha Brotherton being locked in the room. And I feel like maybe he's incorporating those in to make it sound more believable. I mean, I guess we'll never know, but this just doesn't, to me, this doesn't feel right. It feels like what we talked about last episode, where it's like, if he was really planning to do this all along, it feels like these are opportunities. He could have really pulled the trigger quickly if that was his plan. And I. So I. I'm skeptical, but, you know, like you said, there are parts here that we know are true.

Julia 9:01 Yeah.

John Dehlin 9:01 Okay, that's good. We. We don't want to just accept stuff blindly just because it's critical. So it's good if you're skeptical. He. Bennett certainly is a scalawag. Right, Right.

Julia 9:10 And he tries to paint himself as a hero, so.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 9:12 Yeah, yeah, that. And that's, you know, in the first part that was my takeaway was like, you know, at the end of the thing, it's like, there's no heroes here. It's kind of like, you know, you got Joseph Smith, you got John C. Bennett, and both of them, we can show, are doing some not great things, and they're also both doing some things dishonestly. And so I think you have to have the same kind of line of thinking you would with John C. Bennett, that you would Joseph Smith if you want to be consistent. And so that's kind of my take where I'm like, that just seems. It almost seems too good to be true. If you are from the mindset of, like, someone that's trying to expose Joseph Smith at that time, it almost feels too easy. I don't know, maybe that's just me, but that's kind of where I fall on that one.

John Dehlin 9:49 The only other thing I'll say is that Joseph was clearly hiding his polygamy and lying about it, and he certainly would have feared people finding out about it. And certainly Emma freaked out once she found out that he was doing it. So, I mean, yeah, there. There is a lot that would support that type of scenario.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 10:08 Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing, right, Because. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo 10:12 No, no, I was just gonna say. I guess the way I would look at it is I can believe the overarching premise that Joseph Smith kind of forced his hand into signing an affidavit. I'm just not sure I quite buy the very dramatic way in which he says it happened.

John Dehlin 10:23 Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 10:23 And that's just it.

John Dehlin 10:24 That.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 10:24 That's that's just it because it's like one of those things where it's almost like it just seems too over the top. And like, we talked about the last episode, Joseph Smith and John C. Bennett, at this time, they're almost playing this, you know, was it mutually assured destruction game right now? And so I feel like there probably is a lot of, like, threats going back and forth. Like, yeah, if you do this, I'm going to expose you. If you expose me, I'm exposure. You know, all that. But the idea that he's going to go into a room, pull a gun on him, it just doesn't feel right. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means for me, without having something else to corroborate, that I'm a little skeptical. Okay, good.

John Dehlin 10:54 All right, well, viewers and listeners, that's the good thing. We don't want you believing any of us. You get to decide what you think is true.

Julia 11:02 Yeah.

John Dehlin 11:03 All right, Julia, what's next?

Julia 11:05 Okay, so we have that testimony, and then we'll go back to that in a second. But in the Warsaw Signal. So Thomas C. Sharp, editor of the Warsaw Signal, published in his paper on August 6 of 1842. He says, where was the necessity of procuring from Bennett an assurance of his purity? The truth is, no explanation can be given other than this, that Joe was fully aware that Bennett was in possession of the facts, which, if made public, would bring infamy on himself. In the church, innocent men do not generally attempt to justify themselves before they are accused. So I thought that was interesting. So he's of the mindset that Joseph was really trying hard to. To say, to wash his hands of what Bennett was doing because he was guilty of that.

John Dehlin 11:45 Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 11:46 Yeah. You know, the one thing I would add to that, not that it's a huge deal, is that in May is when you start having those trials about John C. Bennett and Spiritual wife, which I believe is later in this. This. These slides. So from the Warsaw Signals perspective, they might not know about those trial records because Joseph Smith is being accused in May very openly of teaching this. So in August, when John C. Bennett is starting to write this stuff, Joseph Smith's already being accused. So that. That's where it gets tricky. But I do agree that making him sign an affidavit is definitely trying to get himself. Get Joseph Smith ahead of the story. It's just the timing is kind of confusing there as far as, like, because this is written in August, so it's like a little after the fact. But, you know, the point still stands that Joseph Smith absolutely is trying to get people to make sure that he's cleaning up that image, that he's not engaging in polygamy when he absolutely was.

Julia 12:36 Yeah, that's a good point of the timeline. Yeah. And so this next slide comes from his biographer. So you have. So. So Bennett's biographer, Andrew Smith, says that Bennett's actions after he offered originally testimony. Excuse me. Bennett's actions after he originally testified that Joseph Smith was not involved in any way with spiritual wifery do not support the story that he was under duress. Bennett had remained in NAU for some weeks after being excommunicated. Joseph publicly thanked him for his service as governor, and Bennett said publicly that he had nothing against anyone in the presidency. So here he's saying, yeah, so here. So he's disagreeing with Mike, where he's like, I really don't believe the story of him with a gun, with Joseph pulling the gun on Von Bennett because he stays in Nauvoo, he's publicly thanked as the governor, and he's like, oh, yeah, I have no problems with the leaders of the church. And so Bennett's actions don't really support it, although we know the story of Martha Brotherton did happen. He has a tendency of locking people in and giving them these already signed statements. But, yeah, I think the part with the gun is just a little too, like, I don't think he would have feared for his life and stayed in Nauvoo for, like, two or three weeks after this.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 13:42 So, yeah, isn't. Isn't there the story of. Is it William Law who feels like he's being threatened by the Danites and kind of run out of town? It might even have been Martin Harris. But, you know, they had those stories where, like, they were kind of telling them, like, get out now. And they do. And I can't remember if it's the witnesses or if it's William Law. And that's when the Danites are starting to kind of kick up. And so those people were like, yeah, I feared for my safety. I got out of town, and here John C. Bennett's like, yeah, this dude pulled a gun on me. And, you know, by all. By all, reading that statement makes it seem like Joseph Smith was unhinged. If that's true, I'm not staying in town. I'm signing a statement. I'm getting out. And if he stays for four weeks, that does say to me, like, yeah, he did not have the fear that he seems to imply in his later, you know, statement of it.

Julia 14:28 Yeah, yeah. So both William and Bennett were afraid of the Danites coming after them. So either one of those. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So going forward. So, Mike, do you want to read this one? Oh, if you're there.

Bennett's Published Accusations Against Joseph Smith

Mike (LDS Discussions) 14:42 So this is from the Sangamo Journal from July of 15th, 1842. And this is really, where he starts to get into the polygamy stuff. So he claims that Joseph Smith has a holy lodge called Order. And he says in the preparation, they are stripped naked. They are then clothed upon the precious ointment, poured upon the head, wrapped, running down upon the beard and the skirts of the garment. The ungodly oath is then administered in order to prepare them for the spiritual wife operations and save Joe from public disgrace and infamy. Some of them, however, are not in the secrets. Bennett then lists Sidney Rigdon and Orson Pratt and William Marks as people who did not know about polygamy because Joseph had feared that if they did, they would leave the church and apostasize.

John Dehlin 15:28 So why are we getting into temple ordinance here?

Nemo 15:31 Yeah, that's where my brain jumps.

Julia 15:33 Yeah. So one thing that. I guess I was sharing this because it's interesting because this is one of the first. There's no evidence that John C. Beno ever went through the temple, that he received any of the ordinances. But he's. But he knows about it enough that he's. That he's sort. It's sort of coming through in this expose. And so I thought that was really interesting. And then also he's listing certain people that don't know about polygamy or that he alleges don't know about it. So you have Sidney Rigdon, who. And then Joseph, of course, tries to advance on Nancy, his daughter. And then you have Orson Pratt, and then you have the stories of Sarah Pratt where Joseph advances on Sarah. And then you have William Marks, who later made some confusing statements that. That a lot of the polygamy deniers latch onto. Anyway, so I thought that was really interesting. So I guess I wanted to share this as, like, Bennett's sort of exposing some of the temple rituals and he's not quite understanding them. And then he's. He's also saying that some of the leaders did not know that Joseph was a polygamist.

Nemo 16:22 But then again, he could be using that essentially in the same way as this story with the gun to say, okay, well, here's a little bit of something I know about the way Joseph Smith operates and some of the secret parts. I'm going to expose that and make it look like it's about polygamy and this sort of stuff. And he's really putting a finer point on it than maybe is necessary.

Julia 16:40 Yeah, that's true.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 16:41 Yeah, there is. I want to say it's called. They had it called, like, the High and Holy Order. And that was kind of like the secret circle that Joseph Smith was doing when he first started kind of only giving the endowment to people almost like his favor. So it'd be for people entering into polygamy with them. It might be two people that are complicit in that. Maybe you give your. Your daughter, your sister to him or your wife, and then all of a sudden you could. I mean, I can't remember the specifics. So Lindsay Hanson park had done this, and I haven't listened to it in a very long time, but I think she said, like, early on it was something like 70, 75% of the ceilings were people who are into polygamy. So there were people getting it early that were not. So this, to me, shows me that John C. Bennett is aware of who is getting endowed and who is getting endowed because they're entering into polygamy versus who is getting endowed because Joseph Smith is close to them and he can't really keep them all the way out, so he keeps them in. And so to me, and calling it the order, I think it was called the high and holy order. I'm not 100% sure on that. This does show that he has a lot of information here that tracks later on. So I think this is important to show that he is not just throwing crap out in the air about polygamy, even if he's embellishing stories and even if he is adding details that we don't like. I don't agree with, or in some of you guys might not agree with. So I think this is important, just establishing that he has that inner circle knowledge that we can then kind of now, you know, say that this tracks well.

Julia 18:02 Yeah. So that reminds me. So when you talk about polygamy, so in the research with David Berger and then Sandra Tanner, they say that actually in 1842, none of the women had been endowed, none of the women had received any temple ordinances. And I don't think. And the Tanners suspect that Joseph never intended to have the women go through the temple at all. And then eventually that changed in 1843, whenever they started going through. So I guess if men are getting endowed or if the endowment is part of polygamy, I think it was just the men and the power that Joseph had over the men.

John Dehlin 18:33 Yeah. And that reminds me, as I'm reading through this, their clothed upon precious ointment poured on the head, running down upon the beard. And like, this reminds me, we need to do a LDS discussions episode about the changes of the navish. But, but, but the Masonic lodge was always Men only. Or at least for a long, long time it was men only. So it would make sense if it was cribbed from the masons, that at least it began as a male only ordinance. That would make sense.

Nemo 19:05 And I guess the thing you've got to think about with this then is that what do the men get out of polygamy, right? Particularly when Joseph's practicing polyandry, what do these men get out of it? This is a way of Joseph giving them something. They get to be part of an inner circle that gets part of a power group, whatever you want to call it, that's what they get out of this, because they're not getting anything out the arrangement. Otherwise.

Julia 19:26 Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin 19:32 And. And again, the only other thing that's true about this past thing, it's it that fits the mold is that we know that Joseph Smith was selective in who he told about. Who told Polygamy two. So this account, you know, we know that he told some but didn't tell others. And that's consistent.

Julia 19:50 Well, and even Hiram. Even Hiram didn't know until much later.

John Dehlin 19:54 So.

Julia 19:54 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 19:55 Yeah.

Julia 19:55 So.

John Dehlin 19:56 All right, let's keep going.

Julia 19:58 Okay, so this next one, I can't remember. Does anyone want to read this? The New York Herald.

John Dehlin 20:03 I'll do it. Yeah. This is the New York Herald. Bennett claimed to have acquired transcripts of these Nauvoo High Council's interrogations, which he referred to as inquisitions. These transcriptions were partially published in the New York Herald. Bennett's motives in referring to the transcripts in his public lectures was to prove that Joseph Smith engaged in the same activities that he did. Indeed, according to Bennett, Smith tried to seduce the very same women. And that was. That was Andrew Smith in the Saintly. In something called the Saintly Scoundrel.

Julia 20:45 Yeah, sorry, the titles were a little bit confusing, but yeah. So he's saying that the Joseph also was seducing the same woman that Bennett was accused of seducing, and they got him kicked out of the church. So I thought that was really interesting to share. So he's like. Yeah, pushing it onto this.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 21:01 Yeah, I was going to say this. This kind of fits in, I think, to this part of the presentation. Well, but this is. We talked about this a little last week and we talked about more in the Happiness Letter episode. But this is when there are a group of guys that are basically being brought to church disciplinary courts for the. This idea of spiritual wifery. Among them is Joseph Smith's brother, William Smith. He's being Put on trial. He's about to be put on trial for the same thing. Joseph Smith stops it. And there's some quote, something like, you know, if I will not stand one more second to. To hear the slander towards my family. And then all of a sudden, they. They withdraw William Smith from being put on trial. They. With. They redact his name in the newspaper accounts of this. And the. The point is that during this trial, we have three different women who testify that four different men are all telling them that they were taught this principle directly from Joseph Smith. And John C. Bennett was accused of telling these women that Joseph Smith was already operating in that way already. And so this. Whether. I don't know for sure if he had the exact transcripts or what he had, but absolutely, when John C. Bennett and William Smith, his bro, Joseph's brother, and these other. I think there's like two other men are being accused of this. Joseph Smith is already engaging in it. And so, yeah, this is a fair way to say Joseph Smith is doing the same thing. Now, there's probably differences in. In. In the way it's being presented, or maybe because Joseph Smith is the one, when he's approaching these women, he doesn't maybe have to give the hard sell that John C. Bennett does to say, hey, baby, it's okay, you know, Whereas, you know, Joseph Smith, as we talked about in our episodes on that, was able to really leverage the. The idea that he's a prophet on these women to get them to. To submit. So the point is just to say that whether. I don't know for sure if his transcripts are perfect from these interrogations or whatever you want to call them, but it does track that these women and the men accused are all saying that this came from Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith was doing this at the same time. Whether or not you want to call it polygamy, spiritual wifery, whatever you want to call it.

Nemo 22:52 Well, I think it's important that we recognize what it's being called in that it's being called spiritual wifery. And that suits Joseph Smith very well because it being called spiritual wifery means that later down the line, if Joseph Smith does have to make public polygamy, then what. What can you call it? Polygamy. That spiritual wifey. That was something different. That was something wrong. Bad. My polygamy. Good. Right. So y. It seems simple, but actually the fact that it was getting called spiritual wifery, the stuff that Bennett was doing, it was no different to what Joseph Smith was doing functionally. But giving it a Different name makes it easier to ostracize and push away.

John Dehlin 23:27 I mean, it's sex with people that aren't your spouse. Yeah, yeah. Ultimately under the guise of some sort of religious justification. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, Julia.

Julia 23:41 Okay, so. So, yeah, we. You guys have a whole episode about the Happiness Letter, so we don't need to go into a whole lot of information about that.

John Dehlin 23:48 And let me just. Let me just take the time to remind everybody that these LDS discussions episodes are available as their own podcasts. There's a YouTube playlist on the Mormon Stories podcast episode. And so you can watch. It's best to watch these things in sequence so that you can get the full story, because these things build. And I tell people that every episode. I'll tell you that right here in the middle. Go back and watch these things in order, and you'll get a lot more out of this whole series. And the Happiness Letter episode is definitely one of the most important ones. We did.

Julia 24:22 Yeah. So we have the Happiness Letter from John C. Bennett, who published it in the Sangamon Journal on August 19th of 1840. 42. This was a letter given to Nate. So Reagan, from Joseph, teaching her about polygamy. And I've heard that there's. There's a research out there that. That shows that Joseph Smith did not publish the Happiness Letter. Do we know anything about that? I don't know. I haven't seen any of that research, but I don't.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 24:45 We were. We were told someone had commented when we did the Happiness Letter episode that there was. That they've known for, I think he said, three years. And I can't remember the name of the person who did. I apologize. But whoever did it is actually someone who has put out videos that I think are actually really good. He's from byu, and I'm really upset. I can't remember his name right now because I feel like a jerk. But I'd asked him if he would send me any of it, and he did not respond. So I don't know. They're saying that there's gonna be this forthcoming study that's gonna show that Joseph Smith wasn't the author of it. From what they've. What other people have published in that regard, it's kind of like what we're dealing with here, where a lot of the stuff in the Happiness Letter tracks really well to what Joseph is telling teaching. And so I think the idea from a apologetic side is to say John C. Bennett knows some of these things. Joseph Smith is teaching, and he's Weaving this masterpiece that basically uses these, these teachings that are out there and then also makes it really, really subtle that it's about polygamy, which to me doesn't make sense because as you could see here, John C. Bennett is not one for being subtle when he's trying to accuse Joseph Smith. So again, I don't think it makes sense. If the Happiness Letter was written by John C. Bennett. I think it'll be much more obvious and up front, like, hey, you need to have, you know, you need to marry and have sex with me. This is what God wants. You know, there's no, you know, but it's not. That's not what the Happiness letter is. And that's, I think, why, when you read the Happiness Letter against what Joseph Smith is teaching elsewhere, you could see how Joseph Smith is really able to leverage some of the manipulative language he's using elsewhere. But the point is, I haven't seen the research that's supposedly coming out. What I have seen doesn't really address those problems. And, and I know when Jonathan Streeter and Christopher C. Smith talked about Garrett Dirkmaat's writings on it, they made those same points, like, there are a lot of these teachings in the Happiness Letter that people know contemporaneously. I think someone, maybe Sidney Rigdon or someone's writing a letter to their wife or someone, and they're using some of the stuff that Joseph's teaching that happens to be in the Happiness Letter. We could see some of it being taught publicly. We'll get to that a little bit. Like, if there's no sin, there's no accuser. And so the, the point is, a lot of people want to distance the Happiness Letter from Joseph Smith because it is so damning once you understand the context. But I haven't seen anything so far that really convinces me it's not Joseph Smith.

Nemo 26:53 Yeah, I have thoughts. So if it is, if it is the case that John C. Bennett wrote it, that is the Salamander Letter on steroids. Because it has been quoted in General Conference multiple times. It is accepted by contemporary, contemporary church leadership right now as the words of Joseph Smith and they teach from it as such. They say the prophet Joseph Smith declared, happiness is the object and design of our existence. So you're like, well, okay, so if, if it is the case, and I'm not saying that just because they say so doesn't mean John C. Bennett could have written it. But then they who claim to speak for God and are guiding the members of the church and Whatever have been led to believe something false for a very long time. And, and no divine intervention has been occurring. And I've done a video on that shameless self plug.

John Dehlin 27:39 Yeah, yeah, we. You can include the links there for the show notes Nemo. But. And for those who haven't heard that episode yet and are just joining us, one of the key teachings in the Happiness Letter, as far as I understand, is this idea that what's wrong in one circumstance can be right in another. And Joseph is sort of teaching this moral relativism to one of his. One of the women he wants to, you know, conquer, basically by telling her, I know you've been taught adultery is a sin, but if God makes it okay, then it can be awesome. You know what I mean? And that's.

Julia 28:12 Yeah, yeah. Salamander letter on steroids

Mike (LDS Discussions) 28:17 to do a really quick pile on to what Nemo said. You know, if you watch when he did the 116 pages episode, there's the Revelation. And again, I haven't. It's been a while, so I'm going to get, get a little bit off. But God tells Joseph Smith in this Revelation, you can't replicate the pages because if someone tries to, like if Lucy Harris had them and then she alters them, she's gonna make you look like a fool. And I will not allow my prophets basically to be made to look like fools. And Nemo's point, if you want to believe John C. Bennett did this, then the 116 pages kind of revelation makes no sense. Because on one hand God's like, I will never let our prophets look like they did something they didn't. And then on the other hand, with this one, it's like, well, you know, it doesn't really matter. So I do feel like there's that lack of consistency. And that's one of the things we've really harped on with this series, is if you take it all the way through and you take this one data point and you say, okay, let's apply it elsewhere. That's where things fall apart really quickly.

John Dehlin 29:11 Yeah. Thanks, Mike.

Julia 29:13 Yeah.

John Dehlin 29:13 All right, what's next, Julia?

Bennett Describes Secret Women's Organization

Julia 29:16 Okay, so, okay, so there's another thing. So in his book, John C. Bennett described a secret women's organization. He said that there were three levels in that organization. And I hopefully I'm saying these correct. The Cyprian Saints, the Chambered Sisters of Charity, and the Cloistered Saints. And then again, I just wanted to note that John C. Bennett doesn't know these things firsthand. He has never been through Any sort of temple ordinance at all. So this is just. This is just his understanding or his version of. Of what's going on.

John Dehlin 29:44 Okay, so this Relief Society stuff or what?

Julia 29:47 No, this is like secret. Secret stuff in the temple or. Like.

John Dehlin 29:51 I haven't heard of any of that. Have any of you heard of those names?

Nemo 29:54 Not the Cyprian Saints or anything like that? No.

Julia 29:57 Well, there's no. There's a reason why you haven't heard of it.

Nemo 30:00 Okay.

Julia 30:00 Yeah.

Nemo 30:01 Spoiler.

Julia 30:01 Yeah.

John Dehlin 30:02 Okay.

Julia 30:02 All right, so how do you. How did you say it? Nemo.

Nemo 30:05 Cyprian.

Julia 30:06 Cyprian. Okay. So he says the Lois is called the Cyprian Saints. And this consisted of those warm hearted, carelessly generous females who had been betrayed into an indiscretion and forced to confess and who thereafter were designated as. For the church leaders. Okay, so this is what he's saying is the first. This low level and. Yeah, anyway.

Nemo 30:27 Great. Not a great sounding thing.

John Dehlin 30:29 Yeah, I don't want to be one of those.

Julia 30:35 Okay, so then the next one is the Chambered Sisters of Charity. And he says. Or the Saints of the Green Veil. And he says these were composed of women somewhat less disposed to free to a free distribution of their charms, but still sufficiently prodigal to bestow them on occasion without benefit of a marriage ceremony, if a church official wished to win a Chambered Sister of Charity. Bennett explained, he asked Joseph, who looked at his peep stone and there inquired the will of heaven if he desired the woman for himself. The answer was no. And so this is the mental. This is his supposed middle level of.

Nemo 31:10 It's like John C. Bennett's guide to how loose women in Nauvoo are. It's just horrible.

Julia 31:15 They don't need a marriage ceremony. Joseph looks in his peep stone.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 31:19 Yeah, it would have been. I'll just. No, I'll wait till the next one to make my comment.

John Dehlin 31:23 All right.

Julia 31:23 Okay. And so this next one is the Cloistered Saints. The most honored among the Nauvoo women, said Bennett, were the Cloistered Saints or the Saints of the Black Veil, who went through a marriage ritual and became a secret or spiritual wives for Joseph. Joseph. Joseph, he reported, had at least seven, but out of deference to the reputations, he listed them by initial only. And so he's saying there's these three levels like this. I don't know how to explain it without being super mean. The. The really easy women, the middle ground, and then the. And then the, like the higher ranking.

Nemo 31:54 That's not you being mean, Julia. That is exactly what John C. Bennett is trying to say.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 31:58 That's what he's trying to do. And, Julia, I don't know if you. Did you have the original. The original biography from John C. Bennett, the original expose.

Julia 32:07 Do I have it? Or is it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 32:08 Have you read it? Because you're missing a page here. Because actually, the way they know which of the groups they go into is. It's not the Peep stone. It's not Joseph Smith stone. They go into a room at the temple and they actually have Joseph Smith's hat. And they put the hat on the women's head and it sorts them into these three groups.

Nemo 32:23 It's the Sorting Hat.

Julia 32:25 Yeah. How did I miss that?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 32:26 I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm just. I made that up. I was just like, read this. I think you have this stupid Harry Potter reference because the. Is to me. To me, this is so stupid. Like, I'm like, this is why. When there are people who are like, yeah. Like, there are people like John C. Bennett's hero, and you read crap like this, I'm like, no, he's not. John C. Bennett's a piece of crap. It's just, you know.

Nemo 32:46 Well, we have warm and Voldemort here. So, you know, John, tell us, how's that.

John Dehlin 32:52 Yeah, like a bad one. What's the bad house?

Nemo 32:55 Slytherin.

John Dehlin 32:56 Slytherin. Slytherin. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 32:58 So Slytherin is the cloistered. No, wait. Is that the cloistered saints or is that the. I don't even know.

Julia 33:02 There's the green. The green veil, the black bell, and I can't remember if there's any veil for one.

Nemo 33:06 No, they don't need a veil that easy. Apparently.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 33:08 This is just. It's just. Yeah, that's just it. It's like. It's like. Seriously, it seems like you put a hat on. It's like, this woman is more than willing to sleep with many men. She is the cloistered saint. It's like. This is so dumb.

John Dehlin 33:20 So, okay, so are you about to tell us that this is just him making stuff up? Is that what you're about to tell?

Nemo 33:25 Please.

John Dehlin 33:26 All right.

Julia 33:26 Let's keep going to some degree. Okay, so does Somebody would read this paragraph?

John Dehlin 33:30 You just tell someone. Tell someone.

Julia 33:31 Mike, do you want to read this one, Mike?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 33:33 Yeah. In her book, Fawn Brody points out that it is impossible to judge the accuracy of Bennett's stories except for where they are supplemented by more reliable data. There is no other reference to the Cyprian Saints chambered Sisters of Charity, or cloistered saints, in any available document. Yet the cloistered saints roughly correspond to the system of plural wives Joseph had set up. Whether the others were Bennett's own secret ramifications of the plural wife system or whether he simply made them up out of whole cloth to make his expose as lurid as possible cannot be ascertained.

John Dehlin 34:07 Okay, so she doesn't say it's bunk, but she says there's. It can't be verified.

Julia 34:11 Yeah. So one thing that you'll notice if you read his. His expose is that he's really into names. He's really into, like, making groups. Like he talks about that with the. The Masonry and stuff like that. He's just like, oh, we had this secret group and the Danites had this club. And like, he's. He's all about that. And so this makes sense coming from his mind about naming them these things. But then. Then Brody says, you know, these are actually things that were happening. So maybe he. That's just his understanding with the. I can't remember what chambered sisters are cloistered. I can't remember.

Nemo 34:38 So there was, like, essentially a secret society of women that were dented into polygamy, which kind of makes sense because they're all in on this secret, essentially.

Julia 34:44 Right, so. Right.

John Dehlin 34:46 And it would make sense that if he and Joseph were doing shenanigans, that they wouldn't write him down at this point. That it could have just been things that he and Joseph said to each other, but that never had. Never have validation because they were never written down.

Nemo 35:00 I'm thinking of calling them this. What do you think? And they're having that little conversation. Yeah, that sort of thing.

John Dehlin 35:06 But. But Mike, my skeptical, which I like. We like skepticism.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 35:10 No, it's just. It's one of those things where this is why it's so frustrating, because you could tell John C. Bennett has an inside track on this stuff because he knows the women. At least, you know, what, seven of them that he's. He's gonna name that we now can look at and go, yes, Joseph Smith was. Was married to them. Polygamous. Polygamously. So because we know that. We know that John C. Bennett has an insider's view. On the flip side, then you see stuff like this, and you don't know what to make of it. Because to me, this just seems silly. Because to Fawn Brody's point, you would think somewhere there would be some reference to these different things if they happen. I know the whole point of the temple is secrecy. And the whole point of Masonry is secrecy. Secrecy. It just, it seems so over the top to me that it's just really difficult. But at the same time, to Fawn Brody's point, other point, because he knows a lot of the details that do line up with other historical records that we have, it really makes it trickier. And so that's why I think, you know, that's one of the things we've tried to do through this whole series is to say, look, we want to stick with the. At least for me, I want to stick with the data that is mostly corroborated by other sources. And in this case, to me, not only is it not corroborate, it just, it seems so comically bad. So that, that's where I'm at.

John Dehlin 36:15 What's your take? Oh, go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo 36:17 I just want to make a quick broad appeal to the ex Mormon community, particularly that you can learn a lesson from John C. Bennett. John C. Bennett knew enough to expose some of the bad stuff that Joseph Smith was doing. Didn't need to make stuff up. In the same way, we don't need hyperbole in our discussions about the wrongs that the church does because it's, it's self evident enough as it is that there are bad things going on. So we can just talk about those factually. We don't need to be hyperbolic about these things.

John Dehlin 36:45 So the truth doesn't actually, truth is bad enough. Let's not erode our credibility by embellishing.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 36:51 That would be my hour and a half. Yeah, let's not.

John Dehlin 36:54 Mike, Julie, let's hear your take on all this.

Julia 36:57 Oh, yeah, I just like he, he needed to sell his expose. Like he, like, you'll see, we'll see this in part two. But he lasts two years without any sort of other income besides his book coming in. So of course he wants to make a big splash with it. And so having these little things in there will help it sell. So like, so I think that he falsified a lot of things. He's not a super credible witness, but at the same time he got a lot of things correct. And like Fawn points out, is that a lot of these things were correct. And we'll see them here in a few slides. So like you. So I think my main thing about Bennett is don't, don't dismiss him. He needs to be studied. He needs to not be dismissed.

John Dehlin 37:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, but take it with, take it with a grain of salt.

Julia 37:34 Right, right, right.

John Dehlin 37:36 Okay. All right, next slide. Bennett's list.

Joseph Smith's Plural Wives and Denials

Julia 37:39 Okay, so on page 256 of his expose, Bennett lists seven supposed wives of Joseph Smith. Joe Smith was privately married to his spiritual wives. In the case of Mrs. A.S. by Apostle Brigham Young, and that of Ms. L.B. by Elder Joseph Bates Noble. Then there are the cases of Mrs. B, Mrs. D, Mrs. S, Ms. Mrs. G, Ms. B, et cetera, et cetera.

John Dehlin 38:01 Now, I know you're nerd enough to where you went and looked up whether those initials corroborated with actual known wives. Right?

Julia 38:09 Yeah. Yeah. So that's the next slide.

John Dehlin 38:10 Okay, let's look at it.

Julia 38:13 So this is explaining his list. So Mrs. As is Agnes Smith. And then LB is Louisa Beeman. And Mrs. B is Persendia Buell, which is that Zina sister. And then Mrs. D is Elizabeth Durfee. Mrs. S is Patty Sessions. And every asterisk is. Is the exact same amount of letters that are needed. So these are. These all fit perfectly. And then Mrs. G is Jane Gully. And this is a woman who's. She's not. I don't think she's in Todd Compton's book, but if you watch Mormonism Live, he. Bill real breaks that down really well of why he thinks that Jane Gully is one of them because of the land deeds. And so that's one that I think is really interesting. And then the last one on the list is Mrs. Is Ms. Be. Be. And Fawn Brody says that it was possibly Sarah Babson. But outside of Brody saying that in her book, I have no idea who Sarah Babson is. If anyone knows. More like I tried looking her up on Joseph Smith papers and I couldn't find anything. So I don't know who this person is.

John Dehlin 39:05 So, okay. So. So. Oh, Nemo's got a book open. Is that in Sacred Loneliness?

Nemo 39:10 That's in Sacred Loneliness, yeah. For visual reference.

John Dehlin 39:13 Yeah. And. And, you know, this is why we can't just throw out, you know, John C. Bennett, because he. He listed. At least we know seven or eight are confirmed by the Mormon Church as legitimate wives of Joseph Smith. So in this case, he's got. He's. He's hitting the target, right?

Julia 39:32 Yep. Exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin 39:33 Yeah.

Julia 39:34 Okay, so if we go to the next slide.

John Dehlin 39:36 All right.

Julia 39:38 Okay. So. So three. So this is something I thought was really interesting. Three weeks after his expose was published, and it was published on September 12 of 1842, the Times and Seasons republished this statement on marriage. So, like DNC 101 with statements attached. Of the 12 men that signed it, two of them were polygamists. And of the 19 women who signed it, five of the women either knew of polygamy were wives of Joseph Smith or their husbands were polygamists.

John Dehlin 40:03 Yeah. So that's Joseph Smith denying polygamy, having other people sign while they're practicing polygamy.

Nemo 40:11 Yeah, but I'd never connected that. That came out almost in response to John C. Bennett's expose. I'd never connected that before. So that's nice to connect that timeline up.

Julia 40:20 Yeah.

John Dehlin 40:20 I mean, that's pretty dirty. That's super dirty. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 40:25 Yeah. I mean. Yeah. And that. That follows.

John Dehlin 40:28 Not just lying, it's convincing other people to lie. You know what I mean?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 40:31 Yeah, yeah. It's. It's. It's. And that's the thing about one of the things you hear about polygamy with the way Joseph Smith does it is it's almost like to. To what Julia just said, where some of the women that signed to had men that were husbands that were involved in polygamy. And it's almost like when you get someone involved, it makes everyone complicit because then it's a secret that, you know, assures mutually assured destruction. And so in this case, Joseph Smith is lying. He's having other people lie, and he's doing it under the overall arching theme that God wants us. And that is why this is just so damning to me, because it shows that Joseph Smith is not only willing to lie himself, but he's also willing to put other people in positions to lie, which, you know, obviously, again, doesn't make sense. If you believe that these are men that speak to God and that God is rewarding Joseph Smith for lying, it gets really complicated quickly.

John Dehlin 41:17 But also throwing John C. Bennett under the bus for spiritual wifery when he's really doing the same thing. Joseph Smith. Yeah.

Julia 41:23 Very hypocritical.

John Dehlin 41:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Julia 41:28 Yeah. So in this next one. So Eliza Snow was one of the ones who signed. And years later, she was asked how she could have signed such a document. She replied that they were putting down John C. Bennett's spiritual wifery. She says, at the time the Sisters of the Early Society signed our article, I was married to the prophet. So she's admitting that she is lying. I made no allusion to any other system, or we made no allusion to any other system of marriage than Bennett's. His was prostitution, and it was truly his. And he succeeded in pandering his course on the credulity of the unsuspecting by making them believe that he was thus authorized by the Prophet. In those articles, there is no reference to divine plural marriage. We aim to put down its opposite. So I guess. So Elizar snowstorm saying, I'm not lying. This is what John Cbanna. We were not doing what John C. Bennett was doing. His was prostitution and Joseph was divine plural marriage.

Nemo 42:15 Does it not say that? We know of no other system of marriage other than that.

Julia 42:18 Oh, that's true. She does say that.

Nemo 42:20 Yeah. Again, yeah, she's lying.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 42:23 Again, she's lying.

John Dehlin 42:24 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 42:24 This is. This is a lie. This is absolute garbage. And this is what happens when you have to. To convince yourself that you are doing something that is right, when you know with every fiber of your being it's not honest and it's not right. Because this, to the most point, the statement she signed is not doing what she says it's doing here. And. And this is what happens when you are involved in a system with such. You know, Joseph Smith used a lot of manipulation of. Of God to get them to do things. And now you have to later on in life justify that because you don't want to admit you got it wrong.

Nemo 42:57 But this is a key insight into how people will justify these things to themselves. And I think it applies now to current church leaders. They will have similar thought patterns. When you challenge them on lies, they'll go, well, actually, what I was talking about was. And they'll try and redefine terms or I think, is it. Is it just. Last name Jonathan Streeter talks about how the leaders of the church say that they teach truth, not the truth. They teach truth. And truth to them can mean whatever they want it to mean. Because divinely inspired truth is a Mormonism. It's a Mormon term. So.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 43:30 Yeah, early apologetics.

Julia 43:34 Yeah, that's what it sounds like. It just sounds like early apologetics to me. Yeah, okay. Like trying to make it make sense to her.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 43:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 43:41 Okay. All right, so.

Julia 43:44 Okay, so just before we go on

Nemo 43:45 that, that's again, sorry, just to bring this point home. That is the advantage of having it be called spiritual wifery and not polygamy, because they can say, no, spiritual wife read is bad, but polygamy, what we were doing was fine.

John Dehlin 43:56 Right. Okay.

Julia 43:58 Okay. So I just wanted to show in this way all the women that Joseph was married to. So at the time John S.A. bennett was excommunicated, Joseph Smith had actually taken 10 polygamous wives, not the seven that Bennett had suggested. So you have Fanny, Lucinda, and then. So I don't know if we need to list them all. Louisa Zina, Pere, Agnes, Sylvia, Mary Elizabeth, Patty, Miranda, Nancy Johnson, and then Elizabeth Durfee. And so Bennett could have been correct of the six of the seven women he claimed, and with the addition of Jane Gully. And if the identity of this last one was known, we would. It would make it easier to. But. But every single woman he lists, essentially he gets correct. So I just.

John Dehlin 44:34 And it's possible Joseph had women that it didn't know about.

Julia 44:38 Right, right.

John Dehlin 44:39 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 44:40 And Fanny. Fanny Alger wasn't a wife. So, I mean, you know, we did an episode on that, but, like, to that you could almost take. Like, John C. Benda wouldn't have known about that, because that was before he even got there. And that I won't be. Was not a marriage. And, you know, Louisa Pendleton, I. I think she was considered the first wife, but that's one that was before he really ramps up. So, you know. Yeah, so a lot of people call Luisa Beam in the first wife. Right. First plural wife, polygamous wife, whatever you call it. So really, if you look at that way, John C. Bennett's got most of them and, you know, really shows that. That he is an insider whether or not, you know that. And that's why we have to then be skeptical, but also understand he's not coming out of this. You know, just making stuff up out of thin air.

John Dehlin 45:20 I think we established pretty firmly last episode that he was an insider.

Nemo 45:25 Almost too much. So.

John Dehlin 45:27 Yeah, for those who didn't watch it, he was mayor, he was chief of the legion, chief justice, quartermaster general, head of the university. Yeah, he was everything. Oh, let's not forget, like co. President of the church.

Julia 45:40 Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 45:41 Yep.

Julia 45:42 Yeah. So, I mean, standing in for Sydney. Right? In.

John Dehlin 45:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right, Julia, next slide is allegations against Joseph Smith.

Stories of Coercion and Sarah Pratt's Account

Julia 45:50 Okay, so in Bennett's expose, he tells several stories where Joseph Smith attempted to coerce women into being in a relationship with him. He tells the story of at least seven other women. So he tells. He tells stories of Sarah Pratt, Emmaline White, Martha Brotherton, Nancy Rigdon, Catherine Warren, and the woman called the Widow Miller, and Melissa Shindle. And so he's saying there are seven other women that he tried to coerce. So here's seven that he did take us into polygamy. And there are seven more that. That he tried to take him to polygamy.

John Dehlin 46:17 So maybe these people said no.

Julia 46:20 Yeah, well, I mean, the stories that he tells. Yeah, they. They answer to Joseph is no.

John Dehlin 46:25 Okay.

Julia 46:26 Yeah.

John Dehlin 46:27 All right, now let's talk about.

Julia 46:31 Yeah, so it's hard to tell Bennett's story without telling some of Sarah's story as well. Does someone. Nemo, do you want to read some of this?

Nemo 46:37 Sure. Yeah. Stephen H. Goddard and his wife stated under oath that Bennett had sexual relations with Sarah Pratt while she was living with them while her husband was serving a mission Tracks. When their testimonies were published, Sarah marched straight to their home and confronted them about it. Stephen reportedly ran out the back door when he saw her coming. And Zeruiah broke down in tears saying that Hyrum showed up with the affidavits already written and forced them to sign them, saying Joseph and the church must be saved. Mormon historian Richard S. Van Wagener concluded that the Goddard stories of Bennett visiting Sarah Knightley in October were highly improbable. Jacob B. Bachenstoss also reported that Bennett had illicit intercourse with Sarah Pratt. But Van Wagner dismissed it as slander, as was as the months Jacob said Bennett had been visiting Sarah. Awesome was actually home with her while she was sick and pregnant. So there's an alibi.

Julia 47:43 Yeah.

Nemo 47:44 Is that right?

Julia 47:45 Yeah.

John Dehlin 47:46 Julie, what's important about this sled for you?

Julia 47:48 Well, so. So a lot of people say that one of the reasons why Sarah or Bennett are not trustworthy is because they. They had a relationship with each other. And so. But so she's really upset that her friends are signing this thing. And so she comes into them, into their house and the husband runs out the back door and she's like, well, so Hiram gave me this piece of paper and told me to sign it. And so that's why that was published. And so she's really naturally Sarah would be really frustrated. And then Richard, or the historian Richard von Wagenen says this is that. That they were. That Bennett and Sarah were together is highly improbable. And then also Jacob's story doesn't make sense because the timeline doesn't match because Orson Pratt was home. Anyway, so just taking that off people who say that Sarah is not trustworthy or the Bennet's not trustworthy because they were in a relationship, you can take that off the table because according to this historian and these other records, that didn't happen.

John Dehlin 48:39 Okay. All right.

Julia 48:42 Okay. So in. So in Bennett's story of Joseph Smith invented story Joseph Smith's advances on Sarah Pratt. He said that after her has been left on a mission, Joe ordered the bishops to restrict her in her allowance and reduce her to a state of absolute want and suffering in order to make her a more easy prey. Bennett claimed that Joseph asked for his assistance in obtaining Sarah Pratt as One of his wives, and he refused to help. And we see this happening. He. He asks Joseph. It's a practice of Joseph to ask men's help in obtaining women. So this. That makes sense. Although, again, Bennett's trying to pick. Trying to paint himself as a hero, so who knows if that's actually accurate. But. So Bennett claimed that Joseph. Okay, yeah. So in fact. In fact, Bennett claims to have warned Sarah of Joseph's intentions. Bennett's story goes that Joseph took Bennett to Sarah's house anyway and asked her to keep a secret. Joseph said, sarah Pratt, the Lord has given you to me as one of my spiritual wives. I have the blessings of Jacob granted to me. And that's the language from DNC132. Sarah gets upset and says she cares nothing for the blessings of Jacob and that one good husband was good enough for her. Bennett claims that Joseph went and visited Luisa Beeman for two hours after he left Sarah's. And I just wanted to know that Louisa Beeman had been married to Joseph Smith. What was the date on April 5th of 1841. So, like, here he's. He's advancing on this woman, and when she says no, he goes and visits one of his other wives, or like you pointed out that she was Louisa Beeman or was seen as his first polygamous wife. So I just think that was weird.

John Dehlin 50:11 He was. He was consoling himself, horny. And he went from wife to.

Julia 50:17 That's how I'm seeing it. Yeah.

John Dehlin 50:19 Yeah. Forgive the graphic nature.

Nemo 50:21 And if you want more details on how Joseph Smith used to use men to get access to other women, we did an episode all about that. I believe Sam Shelley was on that one as well. But we should put the link to that in the show notes because we went over Joseph Smith's Essentially sex trafficking.

Julia 50:36 Oh, yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah. And Todd Compton's book, Again with the. In Sacred Loneliness, he talks about having. How Joseph. It was a practice of his to use an intermediary. So I don't know whether Bennett was. He claims he was. And we just know that it was practice of Joseph's to do that.

John Dehlin 50:52 Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 50:53 Yeah. So, yeah, because Joseph Smith used women too. I mean, he used. Basically what Joseph Smith would do is he would find someone that the potential target, potential wife, whatever you want to. However, whatever you want to term that trusted. And they would send them to. To try to convince them to do this. You know, Again, we just don't know if John C. Bennett actually did this or like Julia said, John C. Bennett's gonna Phrase us to make one, himself look like the hero and two, to make Joseph Smith look as despicable as possible. So, you know, we could even have something where he does tell Sarah Pratt, you know, you need to marry me. And then at the same time, maybe she rejects him and he just goes home. But that little detail just makes, you know, I mean, so that's. So we know parts of this are true. It's just hard to determine kind of how much of the overarching story is correct.

Nemo 51:36 It's worth mentioning that people often say that, you know, if DNC132 is correct and that the purpose of polygamy was to bear the fruit, to bear bodies for the souls of men, then why did Joseph Smith marry these older women? And I think to the point about using women also is that some of these women became very useful in coercing the younger girls.

Julia 51:58 Yep, exactly.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 51:59 Three, three, three that we know of that he was using to go around and kind of recruit or convince whatever phrase you want to use there to, to get women to agree to Mary Joseph Smith. And they were, they were the older ones going to the younger ones. Almost like a mother figure, which makes it grosser to me, but that's what it was.

Julia 52:15 Yeah, yeah, very true.

John Dehlin 52:18 Okay, great. So more on Sarah.

Julia 52:21 So there's more on Sarah. So Bennett claims that Joseph approached Sarah again, to which she responded, joseph, if you ever attempt anything of the kind with me again, I will make a full disclosure to Mr. Pratt on his return home. Depend upon it. I certainly will do it. Joe replied, Sister Pratt, I hope you will not expose me, for if I suffer, all must suffer. So do not expose me. He then threatened, if you should tell, I will ruin your reputation. Bennett told how Joseph sacrificed a lamb and put its blood on the doors, the doorposts of Sarah's house. And this act. And that this act appeased the destroying angel. So that the last bit kind of sounds a little far fetched to me, this idea. Although it, although it isn't really interesting to me to, to think about how later the blood atonement comes in with Brigham Young. And so to me, through his reading, his expose, I can see if that there are traces of the blood atonement teaching with Joseph. Although I don't. I don't believe the story with a. That just seems a little.

Nemo 53:18 I don't know if Joseph was one for theatrics in many ways. I mean, you've got to kind of be that sort of theatrical individual to try and run this sort of organization. You've got to have that sort of charisma. And he was into his folk magic and these sorts of things, as we know. So this old story, very old biblical story of putting lamb's blood on the door lintel so that Passover happens and then the destroying angel passes over the children. He could re easily, I could see him easily repurposing that.

Julia 53:51 Yeah. Now that you say that, like with his treasure digs, he. I think sheep was an. Like a white sheep and a black sheep were often what he sacrificed.

Nemo 53:58 I think it speaks to Joseph's love of symbolism and kind of those. Taking those parts of ancient culture and making them part of his day to day. I. I could see it happening is. Is what I'm saying, I guess.

John Dehlin 54:08 Mike, what do you think?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 54:10 I. I just. It's one of those things. It's kind of like earlier I just read. I'm like just. It feels, to me, it feels like too much. But, you know, it's kind of like what we were talking about earlier with Nemo. It's like sometimes I hear a story like this and I'm like, you don't need it. It's important. The story is important and it's important to try to figure out the best you can what's true. But like, to what Nemo was saying earlier, like, we have so many issues. Like, I feel like sometimes getting into like a story about blood on a doorknob. To me, it's not that it's not important, it's just. It doesn't make sense to me. And so to me I'm just like, I don't, I don't even want to really deal with it because I don't think it's necessary. But, you know, to all of your points as well, you know, we do have all of these stories where, you know, Joseph Smith has gone after people who go after him publicly. So I believe he would, would do that. And with the happiness letter he has the newspapers, or I shouldn't say we don't know that he did it specifically, but the newspapers he's in charge of are publishing things, calling Nancy Rigden basically a. So, yeah, we know that Joseph Smith retaliates against people who speak out. Blood on a doorknob just seems a bit much for me.

John Dehlin 55:11 And that's our, that's our next slide, right, Julia?

Julia 55:13 Yeah, yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 55:15 Oh, crap.

Julia 55:17 Do you want to read it, Mike?

John Dehlin 55:18 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 55:20 From the Sangamo Journal, July 22, 1842. It reads, Joe Smith in a speech in Nauvoo on Thursday the 14th, instructed I think, and which was heard by two gentlemen of our city, said he wished Bennett was in hell. He had given him. He had given him more trouble than any man he ever had to do with. Joe was undoubtedly sincere in his expression of his wishes. The article then continues. Later it says in the same speech he declared that Mrs. Pratt, the wife of Orson Pratt, had been a.

John Dehlin 55:50 Redacted.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 55:51 From her mother's breast. Yeah, blank from her mother's breast. This was the lady which Bennett says Joe attempted to seduce and who resisted all his efforts with the heroism of insulted virtue.

John Dehlin 56:01 And the title of this slide is Did Joseph Smith Slut Shame Sarah Pratt? So, Julia, tell us your thoughts on this slide.

Julia 56:10 Yeah, so I guess to me, it sort of backs up his story earlier where he's saying, like, Sarah, if you don't do this, I'm going to ruin your reputation. And then you hear these two people are listening to Joseph, and Joseph is ruining her reputation. He's. And I'm assuming that the word is. I think other historians have said whore, but it's just a blank line, as you can see there. She's a. She's a blank from her mother's breast. And so he's saying this publicly to all the church members. And. And again, Joseph will do this to other people who leave the church. He will just say. And we see that practice now where when people are kicked out of the church, people say not true or very unkind things about people. So, yeah, so this just kind of gives credibility to what Bennett was saying

Mike (LDS Discussions) 56:48 earlier, and it's backed up by the Nancy Rigdon thing, too, because that's the same thing that happens to Nancy Rigden, although I think that's more done by people connected to Joseph Smith and the church, as opposed to Joseph doing it on the pulpit.

Nemo 57:00 Yeah, it gives me kind of. He does protest too much vibes in that he is trying to distance himself from these sorts of activities. And so he's being very condemnatory. And it shows a very unchristian streak that his kind of developing in Joseph in that sense. And that continues through to the modern church now of condemning people and saying these things about people, horrible things about people that either disagree with you or that you feel like their actions are immoral or whatever. You're like, well, what did Jesus do with the woman brought to him in adultery? Told her to go away and sin no more. That could have been the attitude Joseph taken if he really was worried that she wasn't being a virtuous woman. But instead he chose to put her Name out there in public and condemn her publicly and say horrible things about her, which.

John Dehlin 57:47 Well, knowing that he's in this position of power.

Nemo 57:51 Yeah.

John Dehlin 57:52 Propositioning vulnerable women and other men's wives and even teenage girls.

Nemo 57:58 Well, exactly. That's the point.

John Dehlin 58:00 Shame the people who decline his advances in his position of power is just particularly heinous. And I remember Richard Bushman in an interview said that one of his takeaways from learning about Joseph Smith was that he didn't end up liking him that much. Now, I don't know if that's what Richard Bushman would say today, but I think I remember Richard Bushman, faithful Mormon historian, say that at least some of what he learned about Joseph Smith made him not like Joseph very much.

Nemo 58:33 I think a lot of people go through that phase with Joseph Smith. A lot of people, as they start to learn about a lot of this stuff, they're like, well, I still believe he's a prophet, but they will go down the flawed man argument because it's hard not to see, regardless of what you believe about him as a prophet or not, it's hard not to see a deeply flawed man when you hear these sorts of things.

Julia 58:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Todd Compton's book did that for me, where it's like. It shows you a different aspect of Joseph that I had no idea was a thing. I didn't. I was totally unaware of his attitude and things. So. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 59:03 And, Julia, the next slide. Is Fon Brody commenting on this, or is this a different.

Julia 59:09 Yes. So she. So she's talking about. Yeah. So in her book, no man Knows My History, Fon brody writes. So Mrs. Pratt, Sarah Pratt, never published a statement on her own. But in later years, two men obtained interviews with her. One, Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith's eldest son, quoted her as saying, no, Joseph, your father never said an improper word to me in his life. He knew better. There is no truth in the reports that have been circulated about him in this regard. He was always the Christian gentleman and a noble man. So she's denying it. But one thing that's interesting is there's another guy named. This is Wilhelm Vil, or whatever he says in his book. In the Mormon Portrait, he quotes her as mentioning Joseph's dastardly attempt on me. And there was serious trouble between the prophet and Orson Pratt after the letters. After the latter returned from England, Mrs. Pratt was subject to an intense smear campaign, and the couple nearly left the church. And this is, again, that's from Fawn Brody's. So she's. So she's. Saying Sarah Pratt later denied that Joseph did anything. According to this, Joseph Smith's eldest son. And then in Mormon portraits that he did, of course, do this thing. And then so one thing that. So to my knowledge, Orson Pratt and Sarah Pratt were excommunicated from the church and later rejoined on January 20th of 1843. So just for a short period of time. And Orson was reinstated as a. As an apostle. It's unclear if Sarah was excommunicated with. With Orson in 1842, but she was later excommunicated in Salt Lake on October 4th of 1874 for apostasy.

John Dehlin 1:00:32 Do we know anything about that?

Julia 1:00:34 If we talk about it later, somebody, if you go to the next slide, I think is where is she talks about. Oh, actually, hang on. I wanted to pause for a second. So people. I guess a question people could ask is why would Sarah Pratt deny that Joseph Smith made these advances on her? He. He publicly slut shamed her. He was like the happy. Like all these things are happening. I guess the happiness letter was Nancy. But like, there's a lot of problems with Sarah denying it anyway, so. But there's another character who also denied polygamy, and this is Emma Smith. So despite having been a participant participant in four of Joseph Smith's plural marriage unions, the Partridge Sisters and The Lawrence sisters, 36 years later, in an interview by her children in 1879, Emma Smith denied that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. There was no revelation either polygamy or spiritual wives. There were some rumors of something else of the sort which I. Which I asked my husband. He assured me that there. That all that there was. He assured me that all there was of it, that in a chat about plural wives, he said, well, such a system might be possible. Might, might possibly be if everybody. If everybody was agreed to it and would behave as they should, but they would not. And besides, it was contrary to the will of heaven. No such thing as polygamy or spiritual wifery was taught publicly or privately before my husband's death that I have now or have ever had knowledge of. Question. Did he not have other wives than yourself? Answer. He had no other wife but me, nor did he, to my knowledge, ever have her son. Joseph pressed, did he not hold marital relationships with women other than yourself? She answered, he did not have improper relations with any women that ever came to my knowledge. So according to that one, she's denying it several times right there. And so I just think that's interesting where even though she was present for four, she's still denying that he was a polygamist. And so Sarah Pratt. Yeah.

Nemo 1:02:22 And then context though is this is about the time where there's been the schism. They've stayed behind. Brigham Young's lot have gone off. And so one of the ways that they can distinctly distinguish themselves as proper and correct and blame everything on Brigham is to say that, well, he started polygamy, we never did it. And she can deny it outright to try and lend legitimacy to her son's claim to be the next prophet.

Julia 1:02:42 Yeah, yeah, true. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 1:02:46 And that's just Emma, I guess, bold faced lies on Emma's part, which just shows that there was a lot of shadiness going on if, if Emma was his wife and he's lying, you know, if she's lying about all this stuff when we know that she knew, it just shows just shadiness all around. Right.

Julia 1:03:03 It's like when Eliza Arsenau just, we just showed that she was lying to when she signed that.

Nemo 1:03:08 I mean, I want to give like Aetma the benefit of the doubt and say it could be something along lines of, you know, she went through this ordeal of having Joseph betray her constantly sexually with other people, and she's almost to the point of blocking it out of her mind and just denying it and saying, no, that didn't happen, wasn't a thing. And she's just, she's just flat out denies it to herself and others because it's painful. I don't know, it's purely speculative, but I. That's a kind reading into it rather than maybe the other thing I was suggesting, which is she's lying to try and shore up her son and her part of the movement's position.

John Dehlin 1:03:42 So your view, Mike?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:03:44 No, I tend to want to be more on the side that Nemo's taking, which is just to say when you go through horrible things and you know, your husband's cheated on you, whether or not you justify that through, through, you know, God or not. And then you have this chance with your family to try to tell your side of the story and to try to shape that narrative because you don't want your, your husband to remember, be remembered as someone who had, you know, dozens of wives on the side. You know, I think that there is that motivation there that isn't necessarily her, you know, sitting around going, oh my goodness, I have these idiots fooled. I think it's more just that's who she wants people to remember. Not just Joseph for, but more importantly, in my opinion, her family's name for. Because that's all she has left after Joseph Smith is killed. So for her kids and all that, you want them to remember Joseph Smith as someone that he wasn't because, you know, you don't want them to know all the. The bad details. And so I guess that is a more charitable. Charitable view, but that's kind of how I fall, too.

Julia 1:04:40 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:04:43 Yeah. Well, it's rough stuff.

Nemo 1:04:47 And am I right in understanding that's what led to the community of Christ, as they are now, to have that position? Transition of. Joseph didn't practice polygamy for a very long time.

John Dehlin 1:04:56 Was off the bat until they changed that in the.

Nemo 1:04:58 They confronted that in the 60s or whatever, I think.

Julia 1:05:01 Yeah. Because of how Emma did not talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:05:07 Okay. Yeah. And so what. This is what Sarah. Sarah Pratt's apostasy was about, right?

Julia 1:05:12 Yeah. So in his dialogue article titled Sarah Pratt the Shaping of a Mormon Apostate, historian Rich historian Richard Von Wagner said that Corneli Paddock, a longtime friend of Sarah's, wrote in a. Wrote on March 3rd of 18 of 1882, a letter to Thomas Gregg, the wickedness which came to Sarah's knowledge in Nauvoo destroyed all her faith in Mormonism, and she brought up her children to detest the system. And so like it. According to this one, you know, she was excommunicated later in Salt Lake. It sounds like she just never really had, like, lost faith in 1842, and then just sort of kept with it because of her husband's standing in the church. And so to me, it sounds like her denial. The allegation that Sarah denied that Joseph Smith made these advances doesn't seem really accurate because of how she lived the rest of her life.

John Dehlin 1:05:56 But, yeah, it sounds like she never got over Joseph's advances and lost her faith in Joseph, in the church.

Julia 1:06:03 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:06:03 Once you realize this system for apostasy,

Julia 1:06:07 it's also really interesting that Orson Pratt, he had a really hard time with all this, and that's one of the reasons for why he was excommunicated in 1842. But then later he even takes on polygamous wives. So, like, it's just the whole thing is really complicated with.

Nemo 1:06:20 Yeah, I think once you realize the system that she's involved with treats women as chattel in many ways. I think that understandably would put you on a different route moving forward.

Julia 1:06:33 Yeah.

Nemo 1:06:34 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:06:34 And, you know, not to be a. A jerk, but I. You know, I think it's a lot easier to see why. Why men would. Would end up liking polygamy and women would end up not liking polygamy. And I think with Orson Pratt. Yeah, at first he was probably upset because he comes back home from a mission and all of a sudden his wife is married to Joseph Smith. But then you realize you could get other women who you could take your pick with. And I. I think we covered more Orson Pratt quotes back in our episodes on that. But, yeah, I think it, you know, to give a little bit less charitable view to Orson Pratt. I could kind of see why he all of a sudden would later on be like, I guess I could do this too, you know? Um, so, yeah, that's the messiness and the ugliness of. Of polygamy, for sure.

Julia 1:07:10 Yeah. Yeah.

Transition to the Question of Abortions in Nauvoo

John Dehlin 1:07:12 Well, I think this concludes our. The portion today about polygamy and spiritual wifery. And now it's time to address the question, were there abortions in Nauvoo? And what was John C. Bennett's role? Is that right?

Julia 1:07:26 Yeah. So now we're talking about the abortion aspect.

John Dehlin 1:07:28 Okay.

Julia 1:07:29 Does somebody. I don't know.

John Dehlin 1:07:32 I'll read. Okay, so the slide says Nauvoo abortions. All this is quote. This is from Wilhelm Weil. He writes, quote, all decent people in Nauvoo says Mr. K. Regarded Bennett as a perfect scoundrel and he was the prophet's Pilates. Is that right? Pilates?

Julia 1:07:56 I think so.

John Dehlin 1:07:58 Was with him day and night. Mr. Webb says he was a very small, villainous looking man. I hated him from sight. Ambition and women filled his soul. That's on brand. He was full of low cunning and licentiousness, says Mrs. Pratt. Several well informed witnesses tell me that. Here's the important part. He used. He used to promise abortion to those females that objected to the blessings of Abraham on the ground of fear of the consequences. I heard him preach against the Gentiles, said a lady of 88 years. To me, he seemed raving mad. I said the fellow was a devil. But my friend warned me not to talk like that of the best friend of the prophet. When would that. That. That promise abortion to those females? When would that first have been penned? Julia, do you know this quote or

Julia 1:08:57 him making that promise?

John Dehlin 1:08:59 This seems like an amalgamation of several people's quotes because it's mentioning several people and what they're saying.

Julia 1:09:05 Right. So Wilhelm published his book in 1886. You'll see at the bottom of the thing. But of course, this person wouldn't have known that the promises of abortion and that would have happened in 1842. So, yeah, what were you going to say? About that. Is it?

John Dehlin 1:09:20 I'm just wondering, like, that's. According to historians. That's a really late date. Like 40, 40, 42, 44 years after the fact. Then there's some discussion of abortions. Like a lot of false memory can develop over. Over that amount of time. And so I'm asking you, is this quoting an earlier source or are you telling me that the first mention of Nauvoo abortions doesn't appear until the mid-1918 80s?

Julia 1:09:50 No, this is definitely not the first one. If you go. If we go to the later slides. So I just wanted to pull this one out because, like, I like the description of John C. Bennett. He's a small, villainous looking man. The picture that you've seen of John C. Bennett, that's the only one that exists. And so I thought that was a fun idea. But also somebody's calling him the best friend of the Prophet, which, of course, we talked in the last episode of the Rise of John C. Bennett and how close he was with Joseph and then this allegation of. Of, of course, abortions and how he can. How he promised women. So I just like that quote because it paints it into context.

John Dehlin 1:10:19 You're framing a character, a characterization of

Julia 1:10:22 John C. But it's definitely not the first time Nabo was discussed. So maybe I should have put it in order of publications, but that's fine.

Nemo 1:10:29 Pilates is a character from Greek mythology as well. I don't remember any of the details, but that's where that is. So.

Julia 1:10:35 Okay.

John Dehlin 1:10:36 All right, well, let's go to the next slide.

Julia 1:10:38 Okay, so this is in the same book. So this is just. He says, in the opinion of Governor Ford, this is Wilhelm Will. Governor Ford thought he was the greatest scamp in the West. And then. I don't know if we need to read this whole thing, but Governor Ford understood that John C. Bennett practiced abortion for the Prophet and he treated professionally the maladies.

John Dehlin 1:11:00 Maladies?

Julia 1:11:01 Maladies. I don't know this word either. Galantes, gallants of the high priesthood, helped Joseph to organize the criminal masonry of the endowment in which he assumed the role of the Holy Ghost, was his accomplice in the attempted murder of Governor Boggs, and who knows in how many other schemes of this kind, and enjoyed the blessings of Isaac and Jacob. And so he. So he's saying that Wilhelm, Will is saying.

John Dehlin 1:11:25 Can I back up?

Julia 1:11:25 Oh, sure.

John Dehlin 1:11:26 If I back up.

Julia 1:11:27 Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 1:11:28 So it's. It. This is sort of. I guess we can. Let's just test some of the things he's Asserting here. So Mike and Nemo and Julia.

Julia 1:11:37 Sure.

John Dehlin 1:11:37 Say check or no check. Right. So Bennett lived 18 months in Nauvoo. How does that sound?

Julia 1:11:43 Check. That's right on.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:11:45 That's about right. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:11:46 Organized the new Mormon empire.

Nemo 1:11:48 Check.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:11:49 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:11:50 Wrote the charters of the city.

Nemo 1:11:52 Check.

Julia 1:11:53 Well. Well, Joseph says that he did, but he got him passed for sure.

Nemo 1:11:56 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:11:56 And procured their passage in the state legislature.

Julia 1:11:59 Check.

John Dehlin 1:12:00 Drilled the Nauvoo Legion.

Julia 1:12:02 Check.

John Dehlin 1:12:02 Okay, so I just want to make the point that so far, he's got six things that we all agree are true.

Julia 1:12:08 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:12:09 Right. Okay. Then we've got. Practice abortion for the prophet. Okay. That's the. That's the big question here. And then he goes on. Treated professionally the maladies, gallanties of the high priesthood. Does that mean he was a doctor?

Nemo 1:12:25 He was a doctor to the. The respectable folk of the city. So the.

John Dehlin 1:12:29 But is that a check? Can we say check on that? Did he play the role of. Okay, I think he did. And then helped Joseph to organize the criminal masonry of the endowment. Is that a check?

Nemo 1:12:40 Yeah, because he introduced masonry to Nauvoo. Right.

John Dehlin 1:12:43 Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:12:43 Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin 1:12:44 In which he assumed the role of Holy Ghost. I wonder if that's like a role in the temple. Like there's Peter, James and John and

Nemo 1:12:52 Lucifer in the early endowment. Maybe.

John Dehlin 1:12:55 Maybe. Maybe. And then was his accomplice in the attempted murder of Governor Boggs.

Julia 1:13:01 Now, I don't certainly John C. Bennett thought that that was true.

John Dehlin 1:13:06 Thought that Joseph was an accomplice.

Nemo 1:13:09 Let's thought that Joseph was trying to have Governor Boggs killed and panicked because he thought he was going to be an accessory to that. Is that my understanding? Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:13:16 But isn't this claiming that. That Bennett would have been an accomplice in the attempt?

Julia 1:13:21 Oh, okay. That's interesting. Yeah. Right. That's how. That's how Wilhelm Will is reading it. Yeah.

Nemo 1:13:25 Yeah, but.

John Dehlin 1:13:27 But didn't we cover last time that Bennett was opposed?

Julia 1:13:30 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:13:30 Bennett felt that Boggs's assassination was problematic.

Julia 1:13:34 Well, so Bennett was of the opinion that Joseph had ordered Orin Porter Rockwell to go and kill him and that he was there. Everyone knew that he was in the area during the time of the murder. So. So Bennett was trying to push that on Joseph and Oren porn Rockwell. But that's interesting that either Governor Ford or Wilhelm Will is thinking that. That it was Bennett who was an accomplice.

John Dehlin 1:13:52 So that's not a check, right? As far as we know.

Nemo 1:13:55 No, I was trying to say that Bennett might have thought himself an accomplice. Even reluctantly, but because he was next to Joseph Smith. But no, that reading would suggest that he was knowingly. And that's not a check.

John Dehlin 1:14:07 And who knows in how many other schemes. Okay, so, I mean, he's got several hits and there's one in question, which is the abortion and at least one potential miss which is, you know, Bennett's accomplice in the attempted assassination of Box. Okay. Go ahead, Julie. I just. I thought that was worth noting.

Julia 1:14:28 No, that's good. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:14:30 Yeah.

Julia 1:14:30 Okay. So, yeah, this is just another quote. I just thought it was interesting that even Governor Ford is hearing these stories, or at least according to Wilhelm well's book is he's hearing these stories of Joseph or Bennett being his abortionist.

John Dehlin 1:14:40 And again, it's 40 years after the fact.

Julia 1:14:42 Right, so this one.

Nemo 1:14:43 Appreciate the phrase greatest scamp in the West. We bring that back. Such a great phrase.

John Dehlin 1:14:52 All right, sorry. Okay, let's keep going, Julia.

Affidavits and Evidence Regarding Abortion Claims

Julia 1:14:55 Okay, so this one is. This one is. This is an affidavit that was published in the wasp. And this is from Hyrum Smith, and it was published on July 27th of 1842. So this is the earliest source of John C. Bennett being an abortionist. Okay. So, yeah, so he's. He's trying to coerce women into being with him. And then he also states that he, Bennett, would be responsible for their sins if it should prove to be a sin, if there were any, and that he would give them the women medicine to produce abortions provided they should become pregnant. One of these witnesses, a married woman that he. That he attended upon in his professional capacity whilst she was sick, stated that he was made. That he made proposals to her of a similar nature. He told her that he wished her husband was dead and that if he was dead, he would marry her and clear and clear out with her. He also begged her permission to give him her husband medicine to that effect. He did try to give him medicine, but he would not take it. So he's trying to, I guess, poison this husband. On interrogating her what she thought of such teaching. She replied that she was sick at the time and had to be lifted in and out of her bed like a child. So. So this is Hiram saying that John C. Bennett is saying that he's. He's. John C. Bennett is coercing women or eliciting this with women. And then he's like, oh, yeah, and it's totally fine and I'll take any blame for it if it's wrong. And if you become pregnant, I'll Just like, I'll just give you an abortion.

John Dehlin 1:16:19 So, Julie, if it's okay, can I restate what I'm just hearing here? There.

Julia 1:16:23 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:16:24 According to Hiram Smith, Joseph Smith's brother, he signed an affidavit published in 1842. This was while it was going on, not 40 years later. Hiram Smith is signing an affidavit that John C. Bennett seduced women and taught them that it was okay to have abortions if no one knew about it. That's. That's immediate and a very close, incredible source. Unless he's lying. Right.

Nemo 1:16:54 Well, my. My question then is what part of this would be part of the attempts to discredit John C. Bennett? And did Hiram write this affidavit or was it put in front of him to sign as someone to back up Joseph in the let's all get rid of John C. Bennett's credibility campaign? Because if we're going to apply that sort of thinking to other things, we have to obviously be consistent and apply that potential possibility.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:17:18 I was going to say.

Julia 1:17:19 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:17:20 Anything else?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:17:21 Well, I was just kid. In this particular one, it does feel like what Nemo said, that Hiram Smith is now giving an affidavit. Affidavit, basically recapping the ones that the women gave in that trial that we had kind of mentioned earlier, where there's multiple women who are being told by men, including Joseph Smith's brother, that they were taught by Joseph Smith that this was okay. And so just as like, if you want to apply, like I would apply more skepticism to John C. Bennett's expose, I apply more skepticism here because Hiram Smith now is trying to get out ahead of the story and basically to poison the wall against anything John C. Bennett says. So there is motivation on his end, too. Definitely add in details as well, and also to do the things that Joseph Smith is being accused of. That's that thing we've talked about where it's like, when someone accuses someone of adultery in the early days of the church, they immediately get accused of doing it themselves. And so there's just a lot of stuff here that is. It's hard to know exactly. I don't think. Think in the trial records, they. They mentioned John C. Bennett saying that he would give them abortions, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

John Dehlin 1:18:17 Okay. All right. But I mean, for someone who's just trying to figure stuff out, believing Mormon's going to trust Hiram Smith because he's Joseph's brother and died with Joseph and has no reason to doubt Hiram Smith would be lying. Right. So a believing Mormon should believe that John C. Bennett performed abortions in Nauvoo or at least taught that abortions were okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:18:44 Yeah.

Nemo 1:18:45 Except for in order to defend Joseph, Hiram may lie, because obviously a believing

John Dehlin 1:18:51 Mormon is not going to think Hiram would lie to defend Joseph, but a

Nemo 1:18:56 believing Mormon is going to have to, at some point come to conscience the fact that. That these people were able to lie and did lie because there are other well documented facts of. Of them lying. So. So that's kind of the point is like in that environment, then we have to conscience the idea that they could lie both for the case that John C. Bennett was performing abortions and against it, because what it completely.

John Dehlin 1:19:19 What, it completely acknowledges the existence of abortions and the knowledge of the existence of abortions during the Nauvoo time period.

Nemo 1:19:29 Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:19:30 By people living in Nauvoo close to Joseph. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:19:33 Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin 1:19:35 So I think a lot of Mormons would grow up thinking abortions might have been a later invention and that there's no way that abortions were thought of and existed in Nauvoo, you know, in. In God's Holy city. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:19:47 Yeah. And if it's okay, I could. I mentioned this in our first episode on this stuff, but Lindsay Hansen park did a Europygamy episode, I think, like two months ago, and it covers abortion in Mormonism, and it's really interesting. It's with Amanda Hendricks. I think I'm getting the name right. And they talk about how there's an ad in the Nauvoo neighbor in 1845. Now, to be fair, this is after this happens, they talk about all the different uses of Indian. Indian herbs. That's their wording. You could say Native American herbs, whatever. And one of them is a squaw root, which has been used. Has been used throughout that entire time to cause abortions. And. And that is blacked out in the ad. And so the point they were making, and Lindsay Hansen park was making this a lot, is that these doctors at the time knew how to give women abortions, especially early in the pregnancy, by using these herbs and these oils, like castor oil, to induce basically early labor, which would effectively be like an. Induce an abortion. So one of the points they made was we sometimes, at least I did when I first read this stuff, I thought in. And Julia has a slide on this, that abortions then are like this the same way you think of it now, where they, you know, have like a medical device that they pull out a kid with. But it when these women were trying to control their menstrual cycle, they were using these, these, these herbs and these oils to make sure that their periods were regular. And when they were not regular, they could then do that to. To basically get it back on track, which would basically be to induce. Induce an abortion, almost be like. One of the ways they described it was almost like you take some of these things almost like a morning after pill today. And this is not meant to be a discussion on the politics of abortion. It's just to say it was thought of much differently then. And one of the things that Lindsey had mentioned is there's a speech that Heber Kimball gives now, he gives this in Utah, but he talks about how when, before he converted to the church. So obviously this is before this time that abortions were as common as for wheat to grow. And the point of saying that is that people then thought of abortions differently, and they also were not the, you know, they were done with a lot of herbs and stuff that women, the midwives knew how to do them, the doctors knew how to do them. And so if you want more details, definitely check out Lindsay Hansen Park's Year of Polygamy podcast on that. But I think to me, that gave a much different light on what we're about to cover, because I always think of John C. Bennett and abortions as like being on, like a surgical table with all of that kind of stuff in, in a lot, in a lot of cases, it wasn't. And these doctors all knew how to induce abortions without that equipment. And so in the case of John C. Bennett or any of the doctors in Nauvoo, they would have been aware of these different ways to get women back on track on a. On a menstrual cycle if they were to accidentally get. Get pregnant in a polygamous marriage. And that, to me, is a much different picture than the way I think we think of it in a modern lens of what would an abortion look like in Nauvoo? So I wanted to point that out now because I think we don't want to look at it that way, because from a apologetic view, you want to be like, well, how did John C. Bennett have, like, this secret medical ability? And no one knew about it. But on the other hand, doctors and midwives knew about these tactics back then. And so someone like John C. Bennett would be aware, and that would also be beneficial to people who were involved in these secret polygamous marriages as well. Whether or not John C. Bennett did it on behalf of someone I think that's an important element to mention here.

John Dehlin 1:22:59 All right, Julia, what were you going to say?

Julia 1:23:01 Oh, no, those are all very good. I can't remember where my original thought was, but those are really, really good. And I do want to point out also, and I think maybe I mentioned this later, but Lindsay Hansen park also points out that Patty Sessions, who is a midwife, she would have also been well versed in how to start or give these herbs to induce an abortion. So if you think of it as part of health care for these women in the 1800s who are having children, it sort of changes your mindset on whether abortion. Not to get into politics, but why would that be. Okay, okay. Yeah, got it. Yeah, that was a great comment.

John Dehlin 1:23:35 All right.

Julia 1:23:37 Yeah. So you have. You have Hyrum Smiths, the same year.

John Dehlin 1:23:41 We already covered this.

Julia 1:23:42 Right, right, right, right.

John Dehlin 1:23:43 Okay.

Julia 1:23:43 Oh, sorry. So this one is also. This is. This was also published in 1842, and the affidavits and certificates disproving the statements and affidavits contained in John C. Minutes letters. So if you go to archive.org you can just type that long title in and it'll show you exactly what the affidavits look like. So, sir, I don't know how to say her name. Zariah and Goddard's testimony. So she gave a testimony on August 31st of 1842. She said, Mrs. Pratt stated to me that Dr. Bennett told her that he could cause abortion with perfect safety to the mother at any stage of pregnancy, and that he had frequently destroyed and removed infants before their time to prevent exposure of the parties, and that he had instruments for that purpose.

John Dehlin 1:24:25 And is this Sarah Pratt?

Julia 1:24:26 This is. This is.

John Dehlin 1:24:27 No, no, no. I'm not saying who said it. She's referring to Mrs. Pratt.

Julia 1:24:31 Yeah, she's referring to Sarah. Yes.

Nemo 1:24:32 Oh, sorry. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:24:33 So she's referring to Sarah Pratt.

Julia 1:24:35 Right.

Nemo 1:24:36 But this is the same woman that gave an affidavit about Sarah Pratt that Sarah came home and was very upset about and whose husband ran out the back door. And she said, oh, I'm sorry, I was forced into giving these affidavits. So pinch of salt on this one, perhaps.

Julia 1:24:49 Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:24:50 Yeah, it might be. And this is also one where you look at the timeline. This is from the end of August. It would be so much more helpful if this was from May of 1842, when they were taking these affidavits on the disciplinary court, because it wouldn't feel like you're doing this in response to what's been put out into the public eye. Not to say that that means it's not true. It's just using that same kind of skeptical lens as you would use with John C. Bennett.

Julia 1:25:11 True.

John Dehlin 1:25:13 Still, this is people. This is the same year of. Of this scandal. And these. These are people close to. To the situation, discussing direct. People directly involved and again, bringing up abortion as, you know, as involved in this whole scheme that we know was. Was sexual. I don't know. Exploration in Nauvoo by Joseph Smith and John C. Bennett. Right?

Nemo 1:25:43 Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:25:44 I mean, this is going to be

Nemo 1:25:45 one of those episodes, John, where people cannot accuse us of just trying to steamroll John C. Bennett and say he did all these bad, terrible things. Like, this is. We are. We are properly getting into the weeds. Could she have been lying? Could she have not? Like, yeah, this is. This is a real tricky one.

John Dehlin 1:26:03 We're showing the receipts, though.

Nemo 1:26:04 I mean, but we're also questioning the receipts because we're having to.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:26:08 I think it's some cases. I mean, I. Yeah, yeah. I mean, to Nemo's point, this. This is the same quote, or this is. Is this the same woman who said that they ran out the back door? Right. So, yeah.

John Dehlin 1:26:18 Okay, wait. Help me understand something I don't understand. If Hiram Smith is signing an affidavit saying that that abortions were happening or that, you know, tying John C. Bennett to abortions, if. If Hyrum Smith himself is saying that, and then we've got another woman testifying that. That. That Sarah also talked about it. Why. Why are we not inclined to think that this is a legitimate thing that was happening?

Nemo 1:26:46 Because. Well, I mean, from my perspective, Hiram's. And I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just applying some of the skepticism that we've been applying earlier in that Hiram was signing that at the same time that people were signing affidavits saying we're not practicing polygamy when clearly they were. So we know people were signing false affidavits in order to protect Joseph Smith and to make John C. Bennett look bad, to try and put paint it all on him, even though Joseph Smith was also doing some of the things that John C. Bennett was accused of. And then on this one, we've had an example of her giving an affidavit that she said she was forced into writing and she didn't want to, that made Sarah Pratt look bad. So then I'm asking the question, well, okay, is this part of that or is it separate? Because, you know, just because she did that once this One could be true. I'm just asking, you know, that, that question there. That would be why I'm bringing that up.

John Dehlin 1:27:31 Oh, please, Julius.

Julia 1:27:32 Well, then I'll point out that a lot of times when, when we hear the cases of these already signed or already written statements that then they are forced to sign, it's usually hyrum giving those out. And you'll see that even in Todd Compton's book or other cases where women, where that happens, it comes from Hiram. And even Zariah even said earlier that it was Hyrum that gave her that. So you could say, well, because he's the originator of this, maybe he's the one that. Maybe he penned it, maybe he didn't sign it, but we don't know. And then with Zariah, it seems like they were good friends because they. Because she did live with the Goddard's for a while, while her husband was. And so, like, it's hard to know because it's like she. Well, she lied earlier, said she didn't, or, you know, signed it, says she said, you know, the truth, and then she ended up lying. And then. So is she telling the truth here or not? It's. It's hard.

John Dehlin 1:28:15 The theory is that Hiram could have made up the abortion claim just to make John C. Bennett look bad. Is that what we're saying?

Julia 1:28:22 I don't think he did. I. I don't think he did.

John Dehlin 1:28:24 That's, that's, that's our working theory of why he would just make that up if he wasn't just speaking the truth. Is that what you said, Nemo?

Nemo 1:28:33 Yeah. As part of trying to discredit John C. Bennett further.

John Dehlin 1:28:36 Mike, what do you think?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:28:38 Yeah, I'm just, I keep like, kind of trying to circle this in my head because if, if she really told Sarah Pratt that she was told by Hiram, you need to sign this in order to save the church, then I would also argue that this statement in August saying John C. Bennett was doing abortions is probably not honest because they're trying to frame John C. Bennett as being the. Basically the ringleader of all this.

Julia 1:28:57 Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:28:58 And so to me, that makes both of those statements seem like she's being coerced by the church to do it, if that's what happened. And that's why this is why this is so tricky, because I'm very skeptical of both sides on this stuff because there's so much mudslinging and there's so many people that are motivated to go one way or the other. It's so hard to make sense of it.

Sarah Pratt's Testimony and Corroborating Accounts

John Dehlin 1:29:14 Do we know what the attitude was about abortions? Because we shouldn't assume that in 2024, abortions are generally viewed as horrific by, you know, 45% of the population.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:29:27 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:29:27 Let's just say, do we know what the attitude was. Would. Would associating John C. Bennett with abortions have been a defaming sort of problematic association back in. I don't think 42 Nauvoo.

Nemo 1:29:42 No, but it could be an extra thing first.

John Dehlin 1:29:43 Julia.

Julia 1:29:44 I was gonna say. So I don't know. That would be a really interesting thing to study is the mindset of people in the 1840s. I don't think that John C. Bennett felt any sort of. Because he's hearing all these things. I don't think he felt any sort of shame or anything. Because even in his expose. And you can take this two ways. Even in his expose, he never mentions abortion at all. It's. He doesn't seem to care. He doesn't. He doesn't defend himself at all. And so you could see, either he. Either he wants to keep it secret because he continues to practice the spiritual wifery after Mormonism. So maybe he wants to keep that secret, or that it was just such a common thing with his medical practice that he didn't feel the need to bring it up. So I guess you could see it either way. But personally, I don't think he felt any. That it was a political or whatever kind of thing, a shameful thing.

Nemo 1:30:26 I'm not looking at it as. As defamatory, particularly. It's more that they're saying this is how he managed to get away with trying to do spiritual wifery, is that he had a method to prevent any unwanted pregnancies. So it's part of them firming up the case that he was doing that rather than defaming him and saying that abortion's bad or whatever.

John Dehlin 1:30:44 Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:30:44 Yeah. So the episode with. With Lindsay Hansen park and Amanda Hendricks, they talked about how at that time abortions were way more common because if, say, you were too poor and you got pregnant, you would be in big trouble, you know, in the. In with those conditions or, you know, whatever the case might be, or, you know, let's be like slavery, if you get a slave pregnant, they would give them things to. To have an abortion. And so it wasn't looked at the same. And I believe they mentioned, and I wish I had written this down, that at that time, the church itself didn't really speak about life starting until I believe the baby was was born or something like that. So the. The whole idea of when life starts was different than in the first place. So. So that's all shifted since then. And so as Nemo said, it's not about. Was abortion necessarily thought of as is. Is as bad as it is today? Because that's not true. It's. It's about trying to get ahead of the idea that maybe Joseph Smith was. Was having these. These wives on the side and. And maybe got them pregnant and been involved. And I believe that would be the motivation to try to pin that on John C. Bennett so that you could keep it away from what would be later, you know, coined as plural marriage or polygamy.

John Dehlin 1:31:46 Okay. All right, that's great. All right, Julia, let's go ahead and go to the next slide.

Julia 1:31:54 Yes. This was published in Wilhelm well's Mormon Portraits, which I think I said was published in. Oh, yeah, 1886. So this is Sarah Pratt. She says you hear often that Joseph Smith had no polygamous offspring. The reason of this is very simple. Abortion was practiced on a large scale in Nauvoo. Dr. John C. Bennett, the evil genius of Joseph, brought this abomination into a secret, into a scientific system. He showed to my husband and to me the instruments with which he used to operate for Joseph. There was a house in Nauvoo, right across the flat, about a mile and a half from the town, a kind of hospital. They sent the women there when they showed signs of celestial consequences. Abortion was practiced regularly in this house.

John Dehlin 1:32:35 Okay, so Sarah Pratt would have given this testimony when? Later.

Julia 1:32:39 So. So he. So it's not published until 86. So, yeah, this would have been later, but would.

John Dehlin 1:32:43 Would this will guy, wild guy, had gone around kind of like, I don't know, hurlbut. Those affidavits would have just gone around getting affidavits from people who were around at the time?

Julia 1:32:57 That's a good question. I don't. I don't. I don't know if that. Yeah, I don't know about that.

John Dehlin 1:33:02 All right, so we don't know when.

Julia 1:33:04 It wouldn't take long to check, but, yeah, I can check that.

John Dehlin 1:33:06 Do we know if Sarah Pratt ever denied, you know, this. This account or this. This testimony?

Julia 1:33:12 And we know. I think I said earlier, we know that she was excommunicated or left the church in Salt Lake. I think it was 72, so a few years before this.

John Dehlin 1:33:21 Okay. All right. And this is the type of stuff Joseph wouldn't want Sarah Pratt talking about publicly, right?

Julia 1:33:29 Well, yeah, I guess if you're.

John Dehlin 1:33:31 Because she's bringing Young. Because Joseph Smith would have been dead by then.

Julia 1:33:35 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:33:36 So Brigham Young wouldn't have. Want her talking about this sort of stuff and relating it to Joseph. Right?

Nemo 1:33:42 No, no, because it makes very clear that. That Joseph was practicing polygamy and the way he was getting away with it was John C. Bennett. That's what she's asserting. Which they wouldn't want.

Julia 1:33:52 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:33:52 Okay, so I'm guessing historians are like, that account's way too late. We can't really trust it. Right, Mike? Is that what you're saying?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:34:00 It's like I said, it's. These are. These are ones that are tough for me because I don't know what to make of all that. Just because it would be nice if you had something more contemporaneous that said there was a house where abortions were performed. But then again, who's going to write down they had an abortion? That's where it gets really tricky. And. And I. I kind of fall into that thing we talked about earlier that Emo had brought up, where sometimes I'm like, I don't. If we're talking about whether or not the church is true or not. To me, this. This is important, but it's not helpful because this is a conversation that will immediately turn people off. And I think, because it's not solid enough to me, I tried not to dive into it because it. It matters, but at the same time, it's not really necessary. If you're talking about that now, if you're talking about this specific issue, man, it's hard to make sense of it because she was there at the time. Obviously, she was someone who was, you know, involved with Joseph Smith. And so it's hard to dismiss it. And as Julia said, John C. Bennett doesn't talk about it. So it's not like she's recalling John C. Bennett's expose here. This is something she's talking about on her own will. And this is also, as Julia also pointed out, these are. You know, we had that one interview where she says Joseph never said a bad thing. Then this interview with. With this guy where she's, you know, kind of talking about things that would have ultimately, I'm sure, been part of the reason she was excommunicated for apostasy. It's just so hard to know was

Nemo 1:35:16 this is the same Sarah Pratt that Joseph slut shamed in the newspaper. Right, right. Or in his speech. So she also has a bias there to perhaps. Yeah, yeah. The fact that she also called it Evil genius. Like, again, there's like loaded language there. It's not a very neutral telling.

John Dehlin 1:35:33 I'll just say, and this is probably a concluding point, but for me, it's not necessary to assert that absolutely John Bennett was performing abortions for Joseph Smith. That's not necessary. All that's necessary is to say several people directly involved with Joseph, number one, that sexual. That sexual. By a believing Mormon standard polygamy or sexual deviance was definitely happening. Adultery was happening. Joseph Smith and John C. Bennett were involved in it. They were denying it. They were lying about it. And that several people close to both John C. Bennett and Joseph Smith claimed that. That abortions were happening either at the time in Hiram Smith's case and maybe others, and then later by other people's testimonies. I think what I just said is pretty much 100 accurate and doesn't overreach and. And actually should be pretty significant to people who are trying to understand Nauvoo accurately. Now, would any of you disagree with what I said? And I'm. I welcome your disagreement.

Julia 1:36:42 I thought that was good.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:36:43 Yeah. Like, I. No, I. The thing is, this is something we've talked about in previous episodes. To me, I have a different lens of how I'm looking at this stuff than other people, than everyone else does. Everyone has their own lens. And to me, my lens is. And this may sound like overly black and white, but it's like, is the church true? Is the church false? Because if the church is true, but people were doing bad things, that's. That's something maybe you could still. I could still be a part of. And so to me, this is important to the character of these people and it's important to understanding what happened. But my overall lens doesn't really.

John Dehlin 1:37:13 You're saying it doesn't. It does. This doesn't bear on the. Whether the Mormon Church is true or false. So it's not as interesting and sounds important to you.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:37:22 It's definitely interesting. It's just not as important because if the church isn't true, then whether or not they had abortions, I don't need to be a part of this anyways. And if the church is true, then, yeah, you have to look at this and say, well, how come is it. Are these abortion claims reliable? And that's where I fall into this idea and where I. If I want to have conversations with. With people about this stuff. And this is an area I'm just staying away from because it's so emotionally charged. It's so hard to have this Conversation. If you read apologetic material, they will go after Sarah Pratt as being a very biased and angry person. And as Nemo said, she's biased and she seems angry. So what about Hiram Smith?

John Dehlin 1:37:59 What about Hiram Smith? What do they say about that? What do apologists say about Hiram Smith asserting that abortions were happening?

Nemo 1:38:06 Yeah, well, that's why apologists can't step in on that because they can't say, well, he was lying to protect Joseph and make John C. Bennett look back because then they have to admit that Hyrum Smith was, was lying.

John Dehlin 1:38:15 So I understand your technical. I understand your technical reticence, Mike, but I think even for people who are trying to determine if the church is true, this idea of just knowing that abortions. Oh yeah, the idea of abortions were in the air, that there have been testimonies that abortions were occurring and that people close to Joseph, including his right hand man, were associated with it. I think there's people for whom that information will would be important in their calculus.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:38:40 Oh yeah.

John Dehlin 1:38:41 For whether or not the Mormon Church is what it claims to be.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:38:43 Julie say something about that?

Julia 1:38:45 No, that's a really good. These are really good thoughts.

John Dehlin 1:38:47 Okay.

Nemo 1:38:48 I just want to take it back to that point I made about, you know, the whole Joseph Smith locking him in the room with a pistol. It's like the pistol detail seems like a reach. It seems like it's. But the idea that Joseph took him to one side and said, no, you need to take the fall for this. Very plausible. I think what John's pointed out to there is, is the middle ground between what is possibly being said with some hyperbole by angry people or being said to cover for some people or whatever. Ultimately it points to a. It points to that these things were happening at that time. The ins and outs we're never going to be clear on, but there was illicit sexual relations going on at that time and that is the takeaway.

John Dehlin 1:39:24 And even the idea that there weren't, we can't prove offspring. For a lot of people, just knowing that abortions were not only available but talked about allows them to sort of say in their minds, well, one of the possible reasons why there weren't Joseph Smith offspring is because abortions have been associated with people close to Joseph.

Nemo 1:39:44 And it doesn't have to be John C. Bennett that was doing it,

John Dehlin 1:39:48 proof that it ever happened.

Nemo 1:39:49 Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:39:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 1:39:51 It's just like, okay, there's enough of a justification where I can understand that it's plausible why Joseph wouldn't have had offspring all Right, Julie, let's keep going so we can finish on time.

Julia 1:40:03 Yeah, so there's. There's a couple more. So there's another one in Mormon Portraits by Wilhelm will in. In 1886, he just calls her Mrs. H. She said, Mrs. H says many little bodies of newborn children floated down the Mississippi.

John Dehlin 1:40:16 Holy.

Nemo 1:40:17 Well, that's grim, right?

Julia 1:40:18 It is very grim. And again, this is late. This is late. I don't know who Mrs. H is. So there's a lot of unknowns here.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:40:26 Not gonna be more on that one. That one. I'm not buying that one. But I feel like, again, this is one of those things where it's like somebody would be like, oh, my goodness, there's bodies floating down the river. Like, that would be, I would think, documented by somebody, even if they. Because remember again, most of the church is not aware of polygamy. So if you're not aware of polygamy and you're seeing bodies floating down the river, you'd mention it. I would think so.

John Dehlin 1:40:46 That's. My Mike doesn't like that one. It's still pretty shocking. And.

Julia 1:40:49 Yeah, it is.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:40:50 Oh, it's shocking. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:40:51 Yeah. All right. And the next one.

Julia 1:40:53 Okay, so this next one is. This is an 1886 interview. This is the same book. So with Sarah Pratt. I'll go ahead and read it. She says Bennett wanted me to return to him a book I had borrowed from him. It was a so called Dr. Book. I had rapidly growing a rapidly growing little family and wanted to inform myself about certain matters in regard to babies, etc. This explains my borrowing that book. While giving Bennett his book, I observed that he held something in the left sleeve of his coat. Bennett smiled and said, oh, a little job for Joseph. One of his women is in trouble.

John Dehlin 1:41:24 A little fob.

Julia 1:41:25 Oh, a little fob for Joseph. One of his women is in trouble. Saying this, he took the thing out of his left sleeve. It was a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked on one end. I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed and that the woman was very sick and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered.

John Dehlin 1:41:46 Okay, well, that's pretty descriptive, Mike. Mike's shaking his head again. This is 40 years after the fact.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:41:54 Yeah. And okay, I'll just say this. If John C. Bennett, as we talked about in the first episode, he's like, literally said, I joined the church to expose Joseph Smith, this would be one amazing story to expose Joseph Smith. That John C. Bennett doesn't tell it. So to me, I'm like, why would John C. Bennett not mention that if he was walking around with an instrument in his pocket that he was, you know, doing these abortions for? I, I, that's why I just, these, this is.

Nemo 1:42:14 The attitude towards abortion wasn't that bad at the time because it wouldn't necessarily indict him in any way. John.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:42:19 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:42:20 I think, I think we've made the point that let's just let people know these are assertions. They're, they're late. That you could, you could question the motivations of the people making the assertions. But, but they're in the, they're in the water, and people should know about them.

Julia 1:42:35 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:42:36 And they can decide for themselves if they're valid.

Julia 1:42:38 Yeah. These, these sources, these sources that I have pulled out are the only ones that I could find are, I'll say this, are the, are all of the sources I could find concerning abortion. So, like, I just tried to gather everything, and if there are more that people know of, please send them to me. But. So I, so there's just so little to go off of. There's no, we won't know for sure, but.

John Dehlin 1:42:57 All right, let's go, let's go to the next one. Is that right?

Julia 1:42:59 Yeah, I think this is the last one.

John Dehlin 1:43:00 Let's have Nemo read this one. Sure.

Nemo 1:43:03 So, Wilhelm Ville. Did you ever hear of abortion being practiced enough.

John Dehlin 1:43:08 Wait, wait. Just read it from the top.

Nemo 1:43:10 Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin 1:43:10 Yeah.

Nemo 1:43:11 William Law, affidavit published 30th of March, 1887. Okay.

John Dehlin 1:43:15 This is William Law, who was, who was in, in Joseph Smith's first presidency. Right. Yeah. Right before Joseph died. So a man who's known for his integrity. Right.

Nemo 1:43:27 Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:43:29 The novel Expositor is checked out to have been accurate. And he resigned from the church basically as a whistleblower protesting Joseph's polygamy. And we don't know of any significant lies that he told. Correct.

Julia 1:43:46 And this is Wilhelm Will, the same guy who did Mormon portraits. It's the same guy, but it's not the same book. This is a year later.

John Dehlin 1:43:52 But he clearly got a statement from William Locke. Go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo 1:43:58 So just to really hone in on John's point there, William Law, who was paying attention to the mechanics of polygamy at the time. So Will have had. Because he was exposing it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:44:07 Yep.

Nemo 1:44:07 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:44:07 Yeah.

Nemo 1:44:08 Okay. Yeah. So, William Real. Did you ever hear of abortion being practiced in Narvoom? That's him asking the question of William Law. William Law says yes, there was some talk about Joseph getting no issue from all the women he had intercourse with. Dr. Foster spoke to me about the fact that. But I don't remember what was told about abortion. If I heard things of the kind, I didn't believe it. I didn't believe in them at that time. Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this. So that all checks out. I think for me, this is the one that would be the strongest because he's being open about what he doesn't recall. He's recalling that it was a topic of discussion. He was an expert, as it were, because he'd learned about all these things at the time and ultimately morally disagreed with them and published the Nauvoo Expositor accordingly. So I feel like this is the strongest one to make the point that you were making earlier, John, which is that it was happening at the time, the ins and outs, we don't know, but it was going on. I think that's fair to draw from this.

John Dehlin 1:45:15 Okay, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:45:17 Well, I would just say, anything new?

John Dehlin 1:45:18 Any. Any other new insights?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:45:20 Just that he's referencing Dr. Foster instead of saying, like, John C. Bennett. So I think that's interesting that you have another doctor from the Navu Legion who's. Who's saying, or at least he's saying, spoke about the fact that the Joseph Smith, you know, didn't have issues with the women. I'm assuming they mean pregnancy. So I think that's kind of interesting that we have now a secondary person. Of course, it's not their first person account, but I just think that's interesting. It's a different doctor.

Julia 1:45:46 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:45:46 Isn't that funny talking about a pregnancy as an issue? Joseph getting no issue from all the women he had intercourse with. Julia, what do you think about referring to pregnancy as well?

Julia 1:45:59 I wonder if issue also had different meanings. Because, like, when you say they have the issue of blood. I don't know. But yeah, that's really funny. And I mean. I mean, in the temple it says the women are cursed to have children, Right. Or something like that.

John Dehlin 1:46:12 I think it means like an incident, like a scandal, Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:46:15 Yeah, yeah. And. And I think that could be basically saying, yeah, you know, you ask about abortion, he's like, yeah, you know, there was actually talk about the fact that Joseph Smith never actually had something he had to take care of. Publicly, maybe that's what it means. But either way, it's. You know, it's an interesting quote from a different source, which I like, but

John Dehlin 1:46:31 William Law is claiming that a Dr. Foster spoke to him about. About abortions.

Julia 1:46:39 And he says, I didn't believe it at the time, but then he's like, maybe rethinking it.

John Dehlin 1:46:44 Okay. I mean, that this is a lot of. A lot of points where it's really hard. It's really. I think it's pretty safe to say we can't just say abortions didn't happen. And we can say there's probably at least a 50, 50 chance that they did based on all these accounts, including Hiram Smith at the time. Right.

Weighing the Abortion Evidence and Conclusions

Nemo 1:47:04 Well, I think what this does then is it takes that other. Those other ones and corroborates them more firmly because despite their biases, just because someone has a bias, just because someone could have a reason to lie or to try and make Joseph look bad or to make John C. Bennett look bad, if there's someone who's a bit more out of it saying that that was being talked about as well, then all of a sudden that lifts that up. Right. So I think that one is an important one.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:47:29 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:47:30 Let's get Fawn Brody in on this.

Nemo 1:47:32 Yeah.

Julia 1:47:33 Yeah. So Fawn Brody, and no one knows my history. She says Bennett had seduced innumerable women in Joseph's name, quite without benefit of ceremony. Even worse, he had promised abortion to those who became pregnant. Zariah and Goddard, repeating the Gospel of Sarah Pratt, reported that Dr. Bennett told her he could cause abortion with perfect safety to the mother at any stage of pregnancy. And that he frequently destroyed and removed infants before their time to prevent exposure. Exposure of the parties. And that he had instruments for that purpose.

John Dehlin 1:48:00 Now, this would be Fon Brody quoting the sources we just read.

Julia 1:48:03 Right. Although. Although. Although in this next slide, I think is. I think it's this next one. Oh, it's the. It's the later one. So this is the overview. I just wanted to look at all the testimonies at the same time. So only two of these testimonies tie John C. Bennett's abortions to Joseph Smith. The rest of them just say he just. He just practiced abortions, like for his own benefit about getting with these women. And so this is just a whole list. And Thomas Ford.

John Dehlin 1:48:29 Yeah.

Julia 1:48:29 Okay. So Thomas Ford. And again, a lot of these are from Wilhelm Will. So Thomas Ford in Wilhelm Wilm's journal, says Bennett practice abortion for the prophet Hierosmith, said that Bennett would give them medicine to produce abortions. Zariah and Goddard said that Bennett had frequently destroyed and removed infants. Sarah Pratt says Bennett would operate for Joseph and that she saw the tools he used to do the little jobs for Joseph. And then Mrs. H. Said that there were many little bodies floating down the Mississippi. And then William Law said he had heard that abortion was practiced in Nauvoo, but he didn't believe it at the time. So. So to me, it looks like it is really, it's a good argument to say that there were abortions in Nauvoo. And it's a. It's a not very. It's not very strong argument to say that he performed them for Joseph. Like, I don't know. I guess. What do you guys think?

Nemo 1:49:14 I can get behind that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:49:16 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:49:18 And here we have a definitive quote from the. Go read it, Julia.

Julia 1:49:23 So Fawn Brody says in her book there can be no doubt that Bennett was an abortionist.

John Dehlin 1:49:28 I mean, I wouldn't want to disagree with Fawn Brody.

Julia 1:49:32 Right.

Nemo 1:49:34 Yeah. I think it's very important that the viewers and the listeners hear us having these disagreements and discussions, though, about our takes on these things. Because, you know, one of the things people get accused of when they become critical of the church or they. They apply a critical analysis to church history is that, oh, you're just in another echo chamber and you all just believe each other and you just assume the worst. But actually, I think we've modeled quite well that we don't all have the same view on these things and that that's important.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:50:05 And, you know, I think it. Oh, go ahead, John.

John Dehlin 1:50:08 No, no, keep going. Go ahead, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:50:09 I was just saying, I think it just shows, you know, from the whole time we've been doing these episodes, we've been trying to say, like, when you have an apologetic answer, you have to apply it elsewhere. And in this case, I think John said it earlier, which is a really good point, is a lot of times the church wants to say, well, John C. Bennett was an abortionist, and also that there's no abortions going on in Nauvoo. And it's like, you can't have it both ways. And so that is where, to me, it's interesting because if you've got Hyrum saying John C. Bennett was an abortionist and Joseph Smith had him as the number two person in the church during that time, it's really hard to then think that Joseph Smith wouldn't have that in his back pocket, if you want to go that route. And then if you want to say, well, Hyrum's lying, then you got other

John Dehlin 1:50:47 issues, especially when, you know, they're all involved in sexual shenanigans. I mean, there's just no question. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:50:52 That's the thing. Yep.

John Dehlin 1:50:53 Yeah. And I would just say one thing that I think we can all agree upon is that we were never taught as Mormons that abortion was happening in Nauvoo ever. Right.

Nemo 1:51:03 I was never taught these things, and

John Dehlin 1:51:06 yet the church will have known this since the start. Right. So this is something the Mormon Church has intentionally hid from its members, which is suspicious. Right. Because if the church knew it was wrong and had evidence that it didn't happen, then they would. Wouldn't be afraid to tell us that these rumors were out there, but they weren't true. And then they'd show the receipts to let us know it wasn't true. Right, but they'd never.

Nemo 1:51:30 Showing the receipts has never been their strong point.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:51:33 No.

John Dehlin 1:51:33 And.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:51:33 And I would argue that. I mean, I'm just putting on my little hat here. The. The apologist would say, well, Hiram Smith never said that it happened. He just said that John C. Bennett told women he would do it. So I suppose that would be the exit ramp on that one. But, yeah, I think that's. This is where it just gets. And this is where I think Nemo said it earlier, when you have believing members who will immediately just reject all this stuff. But it's like you then at some point have to accept that this is happening. And then all of a sudden, it becomes really difficult the further down you go to then say, well, Joseph Smith brought this guy all the way up to second in the. The church, you know, and at the same time knows what he's doing because everyone else knows. And then all of a sudden you're like, but he had nothing to do with it. And that's where you start to get that point of like, well, I don't really like Joseph Smith, but, you know, he's a flawed man. But then all. Then it just. You start getting into those. Those. Those next layers of details. It's like, no, this doesn't make sense that a person who speaks for God could have all these errors on one end and all these bad decisions. And, you know, I think that's where the messiness just gets overwhelming to me.

John Dehlin 1:52:27 Well, let's jump to the final slides just so that we can. We can get Nemo out of here on time. Nemo's got to run soon. So, Julia, go ahead and hit these

Bennett's Silence on Abortion in His Own Exposé

Julia 1:52:35 last couple slides so I Already talked about this. It's just interesting to me that Bennett never mentions abortions in his expose. He doesn't. He doesn't say a word about it. And so say that he was trying to keep it secret because he was also practicing spiritual wifery after Mormonism. So why would he want to expose that? Or you could think of it as, this is just a very normal thing for a doctor to do, is to practice, to do these abortions because it's healthcare for women. And so that's, that's all this slide was about, was just his silence on, on this topic.

John Dehlin 1:53:01 So he was, he remained silent.

Julia 1:53:04 And then people have asked, people have asked me, if the purpose of having polygamy doctrinally was to raise up seed, as the scriptures teach us, then why would Joseph Smith have an abortionist?

John Dehlin 1:53:12 And that's referring to the Book of Mormon quote or the Doctrine and Covenants.

Nemo 1:53:18 The point.

John Dehlin 1:53:19 Wasn't it, Jacob, that says there shouldn't be polygamy unless I, the Lord want to raise up a righteous seed?

Nemo 1:53:26 And then DSE132 says it as well.

Julia 1:53:28 Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin 1:53:30 Okay.

Julia 1:53:30 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:53:31 So there shouldn't be abortions at all if abortions are contradictory to the justified Mormon theology of doctrine around polygamy.

Nemo 1:53:42 And so, therefore, however, Joseph Smith ended up having no children from his polygamous marriages, however that came about, it was wrong for him to not be having children in those plagues marriages because that's the only reason he was meant to be doing it. So. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 1:53:55 Or the women. Him or the women.

Nemo 1:53:57 Or him or the women. Yeah, but the women can say no, and he can still force his way in, as DNC132 teaches us. So I'll blame them less and so that.

John Dehlin 1:54:06 So that's for sure. Blame them less.

Julia 1:54:09 Wait, so that just brings into question why Joseph Smith was involved in polygamy to begin with if he's not having children. So that would cause, hopefully cause a believer to at least question why this was happening.

John Dehlin 1:54:20 Not that it's our intent to sow doubt. We just want to the information and let people make their own decisions.

Nemo 1:54:27 No. Yes. Very good. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:54:29 All right, final slide, Julia.

Julia 1:54:32 Okay, so while he may have exaggerated some things in his expose, John C. Bennett's accurate description of the prophet trying to coerce women into polygamy and his accurate listing of how many of many of Joseph Smith's wives cannot be overlooked, John C. Bennett's work should be studied, not dismissed.

John Dehlin 1:54:47 Mike, you'd agree with that?

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:54:49 Yeah, 100%. I think that's A point we've been. I think we've all been making is that this stuff has corroboration, so you can't dismiss it, but you also have to find where you've got outside information, I think, to give it a little bit more. And so from a critical standpoint, you shouldn't just be like, this guy's exposing Joseph Smith. Everything he says is great from an apologetic standpoint. You also can't say this guy's a scoundrel and you can't trust anything. So it's.

John Dehlin 1:55:11 And you can't say for sure that Joseph Smith had performed. Had abortions performed on the women he had sex with. We certainly cannot say that for sure.

Julia 1:55:21 No.

Nemo 1:55:22 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:55:23 Which is fine. Yeah, that's. That's what. That's what the data are.

Julia 1:55:27 Yeah. Yep.

Nemo 1:55:28 All right.

John Dehlin 1:55:28 Well, Julia, this is fantastic. Thank you. This is going to be an episode that. That people needed to. To watch and listen to. What's. What's Part three about John Bennett. Just to get people.

Julia 1:55:39 So I think I feel more excited about Part three just because. Because Bennett leaving Nauvoo really triggers Joseph and he gets really scared. And we'll see that with Part three and how he reacts and how John C. Bennett reacts. There's just this sort of fight between the two of them. So I'm really excited about part three, but.

John Dehlin 1:55:55 Well, what's it about? Title. What's the title?

Julia 1:55:58 I don't know. I can't remember what I had put

John Dehlin 1:56:00 on the slide about homosexuality and.

Julia 1:56:02 Oh, yeah, so. Yes, homosexuality. And then I can't remember the second part of it. Ketchup.

Nemo 1:56:09 No, ketchup.

Julia 1:56:11 Yeah. So we'll talk about the allegations that John C. Bennett was probably the first homosexual in Mormonism. And then. And then his expose and leaving Mormonism it.

John Dehlin 1:56:20 Would it be bisexual? Technically not.

Julia 1:56:21 Oh, bisexual. You're right. You're right. Bisexual. Yep.

John Dehlin 1:56:24 So bisect. So same sex sexuality and more in Mormon novel.

Julia 1:56:28 Yeah, he's the first case of same sex sexuality in. In Mormonism.

John Dehlin 1:56:32 That we know of.

Julia 1:56:33 Yeah, that we know of.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

John Dehlin 1:56:34 Okay. All right, well, great work. Thanks, Julia. Thanks, Mike. And Nemo, it's so great to have you. Please subscribe to Nemo the Mormon Podcast. Please subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast on YouTube and Facebook and TikTok and Instagram. And please know that this entire LDS discussion series is available on Spotify, on. On Apple Podcasts. And it's also. There's a playlist where you could watch them in order, which is what we recommend on the Mormon Stories podcast, YouTube channel. And Mike, this is all because of the great work that you've done@ LDSDiscussions.com so, Mike, thanks for being the grandfather of this entire series.

Mike (LDS Discussions) 1:57:16 Well, thank you to Julia because these are her episodes. And like I said, I've learned a lot doing it, which has been really fun because I didn't look too much into him. So thank you to Julia for putting it all together.

John Dehlin 1:57:25 Yeah. And thanks, Mike, for making all this possible. All right, well, you guys are the best, and we can't wait for part three. All right, bye. And thanks to everyone who joined us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. Please, if you want to see this type of content continue. We pay the parties involved, so please donate to. So many people say they love the LDS discussion series that it's been transformative for them. If that's true, and if you're in the position to do so, please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor and we'll, we'll try and continue the series for as long as we're able and as long as we've got content that honors the spirit and the scholarship and the accuracy and the thoughtfulness that Mike has initiated for us. Anyway, take care. Be kind to each other. Be good to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories and on LDS discussions. Take care, everybody.

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