Did Joseph Smith Have Sex With His Plural Wives?
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About this episode
Welcome to Mormon Stories, where we explore the complex and often controversial aspects of Mormon history, doctrine, and culture. In this episode, we take a deep dive into the polygamous marriages of Joseph Smith, examining the historical records, church sources, and academic discussions surrounding his 35 wives. Ultimately the question we ask is: Did Joseph Smith have sex with his polygamous wives?
We begin by categorizing these women—underage brides, polyandrous wives (already married to other men), widows, and single women—while analyzing the church’s own admissions about which wives Joseph Smith had sexual relations with. Using primary sources, we examine the scriptural justification for polygamy, particularly Jacob 2:27-30 in the Book of Mormon, and compare it with the lived reality of early Mormon polygamy.
The discussion covers key figures such as Fanny Alger, Louisa Beaman, Zina Huntington, and Helen Mar Kimball—who was only 14 years old at the time of her marriage. We address the controversial “angel with a drawn sword” narrative that Joseph Smith reportedly used to coerce women into these marriages and analyze testimonies from figures like Emily and Eliza Partridge, Malissa Lott, and Sylvia Sessions Lyon, who believed Joseph fathered her child.
We also dive into the secrecy and deception surrounding polygamy, including Emma Smith’s resistance, hidden marriages, and church leaders’ efforts to obscure certain details. The Temple Lott Case and Brian Hales’ apologetics are also examined in depth. Additionally, we look into the actual children born into polygamy during Joseph Smith’s own lifetime.
Beyond the historical facts, this episode explores the broader implications of polygamy, including issues of consent, power dynamics, and the lasting impact on Mormon theology. We also touch on the lighter side—why we joke about serious topics, the absurdity of certain justifications, and how modern perspectives challenge traditional narratives.
Join us as we uncover the untold stories, challenge apologetic claims, and provide a well-researched, critical look at Mormon polygamy. Whether you’re a history buff, a questioning believer, or just curious about early Mormonism, this episode offers valuable insight.
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Originally published on mormonstories.org.
Transcript
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Introduction and Episode Overview
John Dehlin Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast, LDS Discussions Edition. It's February 13th, almost Valentine's Day. I'm not sure if that's a yuck or a yum for today's episode. Probably a yuck. But today we're going to cover a really important topic. The topic is, did Joseph Smith have sex with his plural wives? And this is important for a number of reasons. We just did an episode with responding to Mormon historian and apologist Keith Erickson, where he tried to make the argument that many, many of Joseph's polygamous marriages, especially the polyandrus ones, or where the women were already married to other men, that he did not have sex with them. It's just a typical apologetic Mormon tact to try and minimize or downplay Joseph Smith's plural marriage or polygamous sex, while not acknowledging at the same time that every other prophet and apostle and man called to polygamy. Until polygamy ended around 1910 or 1915, they were all having sex with their plural wives and having babies. Why would Joseph be any different? But that's getting ahead of ourselves here. But the reason why today is really important is we are going to bring the receipts. We're going to go through all, I don't know, 34ish of Joseph Smith's wives, and we're going to give a rating, a red, a green, or a yellow rating for whether or not we think it's pretty certain that Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives, probable or likely, but not certain, or we have good information or no information to think that he did really quickly. I have to say this every episode because many of you will be joining the LDS discussion series for the first time. I believe this is something like episode 62 in the LDS discussion series. This is a series of 62 now episodes where we start from the very beginning of Mormon Church history and cover Mormon Church truth claims in depth. And this series is best consumed in sequence because we build on past episodes and we likely will be referencing past episodes. So you can find the LDS discussion series as its own podcast on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, and there's a YouTube channel or YouTube playlist called LDS discussions under the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. And that's how you can kind of go back to the very beginning, catch up, and then watch today's episode. It's a very popular. Many say it's the most important thing Mormon Stories has done in the past five to ten years is the LDS discussion series. Even people who don't like me as a host, still like the LDS discussion series. So we want to always honor Mike, who was the creator of the LDSDiscussions.com website. The first 50 or 55 episodes we did with Mike, then Mike needed a break. And so we're keeping LDS discussions alive. We welcome our live viewing audience. Today we're doing something we don't always do. We're live streaming today's episode. We've got already got Dan Vogel in the chat. Dan Vogel, famous, world famous, world renowned Joseph Smith historian. Dan Vogel's in the chat. So he will be adding color commentary and correcting us where we get it wrong. The only other thing I'll say is that it's not just some Mormon church apologists that try to deny Joseph Smith polygamous sex. And I'll also say, as we'll talk about today, the the mainstream Mormon church actually admits that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with many, if not most of his wives because they've scoured over all the documents. They have all the documents and they would know if anybody would know if Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives. It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's worth $250 billion and has armies of researchers to make sure and find out the truth. Plus, I think they would much rather Joseph Smith not to have had sex with his plural wives because it makes him, you know, to some it makes him look like a sexual predator or a cult leader. And so I think if anybody had an interest in Joseph Smith not having sex with his plural wives, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And yet they now affirm that he did. However, what's probably most interesting at all, and to some disturbing in 2025 is there's this growing movement of Mormon podcasters and YouTubers who are kind of neo fundamentalists. They're kind of, they're not Mormon fundamentalists in the polygamous sense. They're basically going back and implementing revisionist history to spread the word that polygamy was all Brigham Young's, that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy and he certainly didn't have sex outside of his monogamous marriage with Emma. And it's a growing movement. I would say there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of active faithful, believing Mormons that believe differently than the mainstream church and the Doctrine and Covenants and its main historians. And they just say, no, Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. Brigham Young did it. He was corrupt. He sort of took the church in apostasy as far as polygamy goes. And, you know, you don't have to have Joseph Smith's memory stained. And so today's episode is also a response to that movement as well. And so that's my introduction, I hope. Really excited that you're all joining us today. We look forward to your comments and questions. I'm going to ask everyone at the beginning of this episode to please subscribe to this channel on YouTube or Facebook. Please like this episode, please comment on it, please share it, and that will help the this episode get far and wide. All right. Get shared far and wide. So without any further ado, we welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast. Julia. Hey, Julia.
Meet the Guests and Framing the Discussion
Julia Hi, Julia.
John Dehlin You did the research mostly for today's episode, is that right?
Julia Yeah, that's true.
John Dehlin Yeah, we're super excited because you always do great research.
Julia Thanks.
John Dehlin Tell everybody just a tiny bit about you really quick.
Julia So, born and raised in the church. I served a mission for the church. I got married in the temple, left my marriage, came out as gay. I started a TikTok called Analyzing Mormonism and it's been going for a while. Like I need to get back at it. I haven't made as many videos as I would like, but yeah, so I just like try to break down the churches, like in a historical way. Like I know I'm opinionated and I have my thoughts, but I try to present things in a. In a non, I don't know, just a very neutral kind of way. But anyway, so yeah, I'm on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and then I'm here on for LDS discussions after Mike, after Mike's great work.
John Dehlin So, yeah, excellent. Great to have you. And yeah, we do sometimes I say that we try to be as objective or as neutral as possible. Of course we all have biases and in these LDS discussions episodes they come out, but we try to be factual. I think it's fair to say this whole series is evidence, in fact based and sometimes with a little bit of Jimmy Dodgers sort of mixed in. So with that beautiful, elegant segue, Nemo, tell us who you are.
Nemo I'm the king of dispassionate analysis. Because I'm dead inside. That's what how Mike would describe me.
John Dehlin Mike would be proud.
Nemo Yeah, no, I'm Nemo, the Mormon. I do a similar thing to Julia. I analyze the church, I commentate on the church. I'm the UK's leading commentator. I think, yeah, I'm an odd person in this space because I'm a Brit, but I bring with me a love of Jammie Dodgers and. And other British snacks.
John Dehlin I thought as soon as I mentioned Jamie Dodgers, you would pull out a package and show them on screen.
Nemo No, no. Tonight we're on. Tonight we're on Doritos.
John Dehlin Okay, got it. All right.
Nemo Yeah, that's the snack.
John Dehlin But this show is not brought to you by Doritos.
Nemo No, no, no, no. But my blood sugar levels are brought to us.
Scriptural and Doctrinal Basis for Polygamy
John Dehlin All right, well, Julia, let's get going. Oh, I should tell people we're gonna have another episode, at least one where we respond to, like, Brian Hales and others. We're gonna lay out the evidence in this episode, and then in the next episode of LDS discussions, we're going to do kind of reactions to typical Mormon apologetics that try to downplay Joseph Smith's polygamous and polyandrous sex. So, Julia, take it away.
Julia Yeah, so this. I just want to say. This is like you've just said it. These are just the primary sources. And we'll do another one where the secondary sources. And I do want to say, just because you've talked about him already, Dan Vogel has three parts on his own YouTube channel called Joseph Smith and Other Men's Wives. And he goes. And he. That's all he does is he's, like, responding to Brian Hales or other apologists and why they disagree with some of the historical evidence and why he. Why he thinks that that's not the correct take. Anyway. So if you want to go ahead and just watch those three, that's great, too. And then we'll have our own part two of this doing the same thing.
John Dehlin Excellent.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin And look at that. We've already. I want to thank all of our donors. Donors make Mormon stories possible. So I just want to just say at the very beginning, thanks to all our monthly donors, your donations allow us to pay Julia, Nemo and Gerardo and Margi and the whole staff and myself. So thank you. I also. We're always grateful when you're on YouTube and you're able to throw us a bone via YouTube, we'll take it. Thanks to Kelly sand, who says three of my favorite people, first time watching live. Hooray. And if y'. All. If y' all who are watching us live want to make sure that we see your comments or questions, just throwing a little bit of a super chat donation our way makes it so we for sure get to see and share your comments. Okay. All right, let's go ahead. Julia, do you want to start with the slides? Is that next?
Julia Yeah. Yeah. So the first two slides, they're just going over. We're just going over the scriptural basis for polygamy. So in the Book of Mormon, in the very beginning of the Book of Mormon, Jacob, chapter two, verse 27 through 30, they give the. The reason why God would. Would command polygamy. So it says, for if I will say the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people to live polygamy, otherwise they shall hearken unto these things, meaning monogamy. So already it's to. The purpose of polygamy, should it ever be commanded by God, is to raise up seed. So if you go to the next one.
John Dehlin And for our never Mormons who maybe aren't familiar with biblical terminology, Nemo, you. You know Old English better than all of us. What does raise up seed mean? Nemo?
Nemo Raise up seed means to have children. To. To raise up a generation of. Of children or offspring, if you will. So really, this episode is about how busy was Joseph Smith on Valentine's Day 1843?
John Dehlin Also super excited to have Clutch in the house. Clutch. Clutch has a great YouTube channel. He does great work. And TikTok and Instagram called the cultural hall. But Colch says. Really looking forward to this episode. Love, John, Nemo and Julia. Thanks, Kolch. All right, Julia, back to the slides.
Julia Yeah, so the next slide.
John Dehlin So the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon makes it clear. Polygamy is to make children. Polygamy make babies. That's the whole point. Righteous babies. Okay. Not ambiguous.
Julia Okay, so the, the main Mormon scripture that's the starter of the church says the purpose of polygamy, should it ever be commanded, is to have.
John Dehlin Make babies.
Julia Okay, doctrine Covenants, there's section 132 verses, verse 63. For they are given unto him, meaning these plural wives, to multiply and replenish the earth according to God's commandments. So again, it's the. The modern scripture or the. I don't know how else to call that contemporary scripture. To Joseph Smith, they're saying if polygamy should be commanded, it's to multiply and replenish. So. So polygamy set up with that perspective. Scripturally, if polygamy is commanded, it's for the purpose of having sex and having kids. So that's just the background that is probably necessary.
John Dehlin So clear. It's like case closed, isn't it? Kind of case closed.
Nemo Yep.
John Dehlin I mean, I guess the conspiracy theorists are going to say that Brigham Young implanted D and C132 in the doctrine and covenants. And so that's not Joseph Smith. But how do they get away with the Book of Mormon?
Julia Right, right. Yep.
John Dehlin So that just doesn't. That doesn't.
Nemo Well, and that's to your point earlier, John, where you were like, the church would rather Joseph hadn't had sex with these wives. And I think they would. But at the same time, I think that would make it more complicated for them to square the fact that DNC132 is still in the hat, is still in the canon of LDS scripture. And I think it's one of the reasons why most lesson manuals stop at verse 40 of DNC 132. They tend to not explore these latter parts because it's problematic to say it was for raising up seed. And then we have no verified children of Joseph Smith. So he was doing it wrong if he was doing it. Do you know what I mean?
John Dehlin Yeah. And that's a comment from Bunny Watson writes, no children from these sexual liaisons. We may touch about this later, Julia, but that's one common thing people ask is Joe Smith was having sex where the babies, you know.
Julia Yeah, that's absolutely a topic that's going to go throughout these courses.
John Dehlin Okay.
Julia Yeah.
Joseph Smith's 35 Plural Wives: An Overview
John Dehlin All right, so what's this list?
Julia So this is a list of the 35. So different historians count different numbers of wives. Like Todd Compton is one I really admire. He doesn't count all of these women. I think he only counts 33. Brian Hales counts more. I added the ones these. This is, I think this is Brian Hales's list too. So this is. These are Joseph Smith's wives. Again, there might be more that have, like, lesser evidence, but yeah, if you go to the next slide.
John Dehlin Okay, so this lists 35 for those who are just listening.
Julia Yeah, 35 wives.
John Dehlin You're. You're doing, you're going with 35 for today, right?
Julia I'm just going to go with 35. Yeah. I mean, there could be 40. There could be 40 something.
John Dehlin And I would say, I've seen the church itself say somewhere between 30 and 40. Right, right.
Julia And yes, exactly.
Nemo And so we go right down the middle, 35. Everyone's happy.
John Dehlin Okay, so what's this slide? Describe it.
Julia So this is, this is the same list, but now some of the wives are colored differently with green, which is like the symbol for me of like, yes, this is. There is evidence for sex. So on Brian Hills, his website, Joseph Smith, polygamy.com or something, these are the ones that Brian Hills acknowledges that, that Joseph did have sex with Them. And so I say the church because Brian Hills, he, like, works for the church. He publishes things through the church. I feel like that's okay to say.
John Dehlin Yeah. And let me just say, for those who are never Mormon or new to this whole thing, when the church came out with its gospel topics essays admitting all sorts of problems that they had been denying for, you know, centuries, basically they did have through two to three essays on Joseph Smith's polygamy. And my understanding is Brian Hales was the first draft author on the church's polygamist essays. So we're not just naming some random apologist. Dude, we're talking about, as far as we know, the Mormon Church's number one go to guy for polygamy. And he, you know, so we know he's an insider and that the church views his work as credible. Do you all disagree with that or have other feedback on that other than
Nemo to say the church could, if convenient to them, throw him under the bus and claim that he never officially was speaking for them when he said any of these things. But for all intents and purposes, if you ask any of the apostles, they're likely to be informed by his opinion on these matters.
John Dehlin Yeah.
Nemo Also, Gigi in the comments says, where's Emma? And I think that's a really good point. If you throw that list back up on screen, she's somewhere around. This is in order. I think she's somewhere between Rhoda Richards and Desdemona Fulma. Somewhere around there, I think.
John Dehlin I think Emma was like the 22nd.ish wife sealed to Joseph.
Nemo Oh, okay. I thought it was 27th, but so when.
Julia So when With Todd. Compton's where he dates things. I think he places her as being sealed as the 26th wife of. I'm getting my math correctly.
John Dehlin Okay, then Nemo's right.
Julia But yeah, I think she falls kind of. Kind of down there. But. But yeah, so she's not on this list. I should have added her. Emma is a very important. She's the only legal wife from Joseph Smith. These are just the. I only listed the 35 polygamous wives. But, yeah, absolutely. She's an important character. She. I don't envy her life that she led, but I should have added her for sure.
John Dehlin Okay, but. But the summary of this slide is what, 10 to 11? The church just already acknowledges.
Julia Yeah, so the church says at least he had sex with 10 of them. And I will point out that all of these, other than Mary Heron, are single women. Mary Heron is a polyandrous wife. So they. So A lot of people say, oh, he didn't have sex with any of his polyandrous wives. So this list kind of leans that way more. Except for Mary Heron, but we'll talk about that too.
Nemo But either way, that's like a case shut and closed, right. If the question is, did Joseph Smith have sexual relations with any of his polygamous wives? Yet church admits that he did, including one of his polyandrous ones.
Julia Done.
John Dehlin And that's. And again, that's satisfying to believing orthodox Mormons who it's not satisfying to are sort of these conspiratorial believing neo orthodox Mormons that now think that the church can sometimes fall into apostasy and that sometimes prophets can lead us astray and implement a terrible thing like polygamy. But somehow the church is still true. They might not care what the modern church thinks or just feel like it's okay. The church can get things wrong. The prophets, sees and revelators in the church history department can all get things wrong and the church still be true. Which is interesting to me.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin So anyway, that's why it is a open and shut case for people who still believe in prophetic authority. And I'll just mention I was watching a YouTube channel the other day of these polygamy deniers. Apparently, According to this YouTube channel, people are starting to get excommunicated for denying Joseph Smith's polygamy. And I, I had someone on Mormon Stories years ago that was disciplined for, you know, for some sort of question around whether or not Joseph did or did not what was or was not a polygamist. And anyway, is that interesting?
Julia That's so crazy.
Nemo It's come full circle. It's gone like, no, he didn't practice polygamy. We will punish anyone that tries to say that he did publicly to. Now you publicly denied the thing that we've. We're now telling you. Yeah, you get.
John Dehlin Yeah. And again, that's if the YouTube show I saw is accurate. But I don't. It's on it. It's on a channel who. We all know who the. The person is. I don't like to say the name because I don't like to spread conspiracy theories.
Nemo All right, that's mad.
John Dehlin Okay. If true.
Julia So this one I will acknowledge. This is mine. You guys can are free to disagree with me. If you do disagree with me, please, like, put it in the chats, like, explain why you disagree. I would love to hear. So, so let me explain. So the green are the ones that there is strong evidence for the yellow or whatever color you want to. Orange are the women that are like there may be, there may be evidence. And then the red are no. So. And then the ones that are underlined. I just did that for myself to keep track because these are the ones that are underlined are polyandrus, meaning they already have a legal husband that is not Joseph Smith.
John Dehlin Okay. And so that's also. It's the same 10. No. Okay, so it's more than just the 10 green that we saw in the previous slide, right?
Julia Oh, yes, for sure.
John Dehlin So you're saying how many green about Julia. I know I'm on the spot asking
Julia you if you go to the next slide, I might say it in there. Oh, no, I don't. Okay, so go back. So I might have to just count.
John Dehlin Okay, I'll count the yellow, you count the red. Nemo.
Nemo 24.
Julia So 19, eight.
John Dehlin So there's eight yellows where we're saying we're not sure.
Nemo Yeah.
John Dehlin How many greens where we're saying yes, Julie is taking it from 10 to 19. We're saying eight maybes. And then how many. How many were saying no? Data?
Nemo Eight no's.
John Dehlin Are the no's no. Or are the no's or the.
Nemo The. We don't know.
John Dehlin We don't know.
Julia We don't know. So I, Let me, let me clarify that.
John Dehlin Okay.
Julia I'm pretty sure all of the reds are. We don't knows and not just strictly no's. But we'll, we'll go through all that evidence and we can talk about it. Because even, even off camera, Nemo and I were disagreeing on some of these things, but we, we erred on the side of caution.
Nemo So yeah, Kelly, Sam says in the comments, she sent a super chat. She says disagreeing with Julia should be a crime. Well then lock me up because I spent an hour before this show disagreeing with, to try and be as incredible as possible.
John Dehlin Yeah, Nemo, I think it's great. I think it's great for us when we're not like looking like too eager to over interpret the data, you know, in a way that makes the church look bad. I think that's something Dan Vogel and other good scholars do a good job of. And I love it that we're doing that here. So we'll just let people know we've spent time making sure we're as conservative as possible. And again, Julia, it's 21. We're 21. We're saying our yeses right now.
Nemo 19.
John Dehlin 19 yeses and eight maybes. Okay. And we're gonna show the receipts, right?
Julia Yeah. Again, if you disagree with my receipts. Absolutely. Let me know. And let me know. Why don't you correct.
John Dehlin Yeah, we'll correct in a future episode. Yeah.
Breaking Down the Demographics of the Wives
Julia So I just. Some of the. So I just wanted to break it down a little bit what these 35 women look like. So there's two that are underage. So there are two 14 year olds that Joseph Smith married.
John Dehlin Is it. And then is it fair to say I know there are 16 year olds if he's under is 38. If he's 38, is 16 underage? I guess that's. That could be a legal question, but it could also be a moral or ethical.
Nemo What's the cut off you've used Julia?
Julia I just use 14 underage. But that's a really great question because is 16 year old underage? Especially if he's 38 or 40. The spouse is 17 underage. I am this is just there. I'm just pointing out that there were. I think legally in that era it is 14. That. That was the legal underage.
John Dehlin Okay.
Julia For women. That's the number I used is kind of airing on that. So. And then women who were already married. He has. There was 14 women who he married. They were already married.
John Dehlin And for those who don't know the word, that's a polyandrous marriage. Polyandry is the word there. Marrying a woman, remarrying a man, a man wearing a woman who's already married to another man.
Julia And then I will say that I did add. I can always say this later, but there was one woman that he. That she has a fake husband or a front husband for. So but I counted her as one of the 14 because legally she is not married to Joseph. She's legally married to another man even though her marriage to him happened after her marriage, her marriage to Joseph. So. But she is counted in there. And then widows. Joseph married four widows. Well, I was told that Joseph only was marrying widows and I was telling that on my mission, which is embarrassing to know that there's only four and then the single women there are 17. And then that includes the underage, the two underage girls. So yeah, I just wanted to break that down to show what was happening.
John Dehlin And then I also like to highlight usually how many mother daughter pairs or sister pairs Joseph Smith married. Dan Vogel's in the chat. He can let us know. But I'm also gonna ask chat DBT because sometimes chat GPT knows I'm stalling.
Julia Well, you see how the. The Huntington girls you have The Lawrence girls, you have the Partridge sister. So I think there's at least three sister pairs. If I'm not.
John Dehlin You're right. Three. Three mother, daughter. Three mother daughters. According to Chat gbt, there's Petty Bartlett Sessions and Sylvia Porter Sessions. There's Elizabeth Davis Durfee and Almera Woodard Johnson. And then there's Luki Lucy Walker Kimball and Lorena Walker. So those are mother daughter pairs, right?
Julia Oh, I don't know if I've counted Lorena Walker. She might be. There might not be enough.
John Dehlin Oh, and it says possibly disputed next to Lorena Walker.
Julia So I, I in my 35 and this Brian's 35. These are the ones with the strong evidence. Of course, there could be like five more or so that. That are. That are less, and so that might be why she's not showing up in this list. But. Yeah, so at least, at least two mother daughter pairs, if not three, if we count this other woman.
John Dehlin Okay. And then sister pairs. Emily and Eliza Partridge, Sarah Maria Lawrence, Lucy. Did we just say this? Lucy, Lorena Walker. Oh, they're counting Lucy and Lorena twice. He doesn't know if they're sisters or
Julia Presenti and Zina Huntington are sisters as well, so.
John Dehlin Oh, okay.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin So, all right. So what's that? Nemo.
Nemo So plenty.
Julia Yeah.
Nemo Enough to gross me out.
John Dehlin Kelly sand wrote straight to jail. Nemo.
Nemo Yeah, you have to disagree with Julia.
John Dehlin Also thanks to Sally Osling, who's saying hi to everyone that she loves lds.
Nemo And Vogel says three sets of sisters, one mother and daughter, and I would trust him on that.
John Dehlin Thanks, Dan Vogel. One mother.
Julia I thought there was two, but probably Patty and. Yeah. And Sylvia.
John Dehlin Is that. Is that gross? Is that bad? Julia, you're a woman. Like, how would you like to be married to a man with your sister?
Julia I would not. But that's so common in polygamous unions. Like, it was very common. I don't like it.
John Dehlin How about being married to a man with your mom?
Julia Yeah. No, I would not like that. We're making gross faces on the Nemo.
John Dehlin How would you like to be married to your wife and her sister or
Julia her mom, your mother in law?
Nemo Yeah. Can we move on?
John Dehlin All right, now we're gonna go through them one by one. I guess we could assume Joseph had sex with Emma because he had children with her, right?
Julia Absolutely. Yeah.
John Dehlin Okay. All right, well, yes, we'll pass through Emma and go right to Fanny.
Fanny Alger and the Earliest Plural Marriage
Julia Okay. So I feel like Fanny is probably the most con. I don't know, well known. I feel like most a Lot of people know about her. So Fanny, she's 16 years old, she worked with the Smiths, she worked in their home. She was helping Emma with their chores and things like that. And then in a letter written to Oliver Cowdery or from, from Oliver Cowdery, he wrote that there, that, that, that there was a dirty, it was a dirty, nasty, filthy scrape. And then over top was written affair. And so that's one piece of evidence that there was sexual relations there.
John Dehlin And we know that, we know that Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated for accusing Joseph of, of adultery. And you can't believe in the Book of Mormon and not trust Oliver Cowdery as a witness. You just can't. So if Oliver's number two in the church was scribed to the Book of Mormon and he says he catches Joseph in an affair, probably. Probably he did. Right.
Julia Well, I mean, I, People, people pick and choose what they want to believe.
Nemo You can't cherry pick him though, right? You can't say he's a credible witness to the Book of Mormon, but not a credible witness to Joseph Smith in the barn with Fanny.
Julia People do this. Apologists do that all the time though. Like with. Anyway, we can go into that, but yeah, they cherry pick what they want to believe. So, yeah. Another source was from William McClellan. He once said that one night she, she, Emma Smith missed Joseph and Fanny Alger. She went to the barn and saw him and Fanny in the barn together alone. She looked through a crack and saw the transaction. She told me the story too, was very, very true. And so it's not really saying what it is. It's very euphemistic. They saw the transaction. What does that mean? Was it a. Was it a ceremony? Was it a kiss? Was it sex?
John Dehlin I think they traded a goat for a sheep. I think it was a agricultural transaction.
Julia Sure, I'm joking. And then this last source comes from William Wilhelm Will in his book Mormon Portrait, which has a lot of information in there. It's a very interesting book to read. But he. We hear from him. Joseph's dissolute life began already in the first times of the church and in Kirtland. He was sealed there secretly to Fanny Alger. Emma was furious and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house. So according to that source, Fanny Alger left the home pregnant.
Nemo Maybe. Or maybe she just couldn't hide this light in her eyes, her newfound celestial glow.
Julia Sure, sure. But she, she pretty quickly married another man. Solomon Custer I think is his name. But anyway, so that. So this is the evidence for Fannie. I think it's very evident she was kicked, she was removed from the home. Dirty, nasty, filthy scrape coming from all over Cowdery. We don't know. We don't know. We can't really verify if she was pregnant or not, but just from this one source and her maybe quick marriage to Solomon.
John Dehlin But my question with Fannie isn't whether Joseph had sex with her, it's whether it was a polygamous marriage because the sealing power hadn't been given yet. You know, the DNC32 revelation hadn't been given yet. Like, I think it doesn't belong on this list because it wasn't a polygamous marriage. I think it was literally just a straight up affair that later the church named as a polygamous marriage to cover up the fact that Joseph was.
Nemo Yeah, that's why people are so desperate to try and disprove this. They're so desperate to disprove that he ever had sex with Fanny Auga because of the fact that it doesn't work with the timeline. And that's also why DC 132 in the top footnotes it says, although revealed in, you know, 1843 or 1844 or whatever it says some of this stuff was noted just Smith as early as 1831. Because again, we don't know the exact date of this affair with Fanny Alga. We know it was before 1838. Most people put it around 1835. So the church has just punted to 1831 to go. Right. Well, if we say that he was starting to get revelations about this sort of stuff as early as 1831, then he's covered for this to be a, like a legit polygamous thing. I can't think of any other revelations where Joseph was having them continually for like 13 years before he decided to write one down. Oh, actually, no. Maybe the first vision. Yeah, he waited 12 years to write that one down. So, you know. Well, yeah, maybe, maybe we can give him that.
Julia I will say in one of the other episodes we talked about, Joseph Smith commanded polygamy among the Native Americans. And I'm pretty sure that was 1835, which is when. Around when this Fanny Alger stuff would have been happening.
John Dehlin So no, that was. It was 1830. It was earlier than.
Julia It was earlier than that. Okay.
John Dehlin Yeah. Native American revelation came out like in 30 or 31.
Julia Okay.
John Dehlin But.
Julia But still earlier. So like, if he's already got polygamy on his mind. So maybe that's one of the reasons why they're trying to make the date.
John Dehlin Oh, for sure.
Julia Yeah. But, yeah, I. I can see why you wouldn't want to accept Fanny.
John Dehlin Yeah, that's why. That's why we recommend doing the LDS discussion series in sequence. We definitely covered that when Joseph Smith sent missionaries into the Missouri kind of territory. And around there, he actually said, hey, if you want to pick up a squad now and then, no harm, no foul, you're. You're on. You're on the work of the Lord. They're only Native Americans. They're only Indians, the Ammonites, after all. So feel free to pick up a squad, too, and call it polygamy. And yeah, Dan. Dan Vogel is confirming it was 1831, but he's saying it isn't polygamy. Really. It's sort of. I'm guessing he's saying concubinage. It's just a little action, a little missionary action on the side with the natives.
Julia Well, I will also point out because the revelation was given to, I think, seven men, and I think five of them are already married. So maybe Dan can explain what he means, because it does seem like polygamy to me if he's. If Joseph's listing these men out to take Native Americans. But anyway, so, yeah, so that's. That's the evidence for Fanny.
John Dehlin Definitely. Sex with Fanny. But yeah, you know, polygamy is questionable, but since the church includes her. Will include her. So that's one down. All right.
Early Polyandrous Marriages: Wives One Through Five
Julia Okay, so Lucinda Pendleton married George Washington Harris on November 23rd of 1830, and then she married Joseph sometime in 1838. Again, this is pre DNC 132. So maybe, maybe you would also not listed her as a polygamous wife. John, depending on where you want to make polygamy having happened, at least they
John Dehlin have the ceiling power by then.
Julia Oh, yeah, I guess. Yeah. But in an interview with Wilhelm Will in the same book, Mormon Portraits, Sarah Pratt says, and this is the wife of one of the apostles, she says, when Joseph had made his dastardly attempt on me, on her, I went to Mrs. Harris to unbosom my grief. To her, to my utter astonishment, she said, laughing heartily, how foolish you are. I don't see anything so horrible in it. Why I am his mistress since four years.
John Dehlin So not only is Joseph sort of being a sexual predator trying to make the moves on Sarah Pratt. Pre polygamy revelation, right. 1838, but when she goes to someone to say, hey, Joseph is like Joseph's molesting me or attacking me. She says, what's the problem? I'm. I've been his mistress for. For four or five years. So what. How do we know this is credible? Is this. How credible would you rate this account?
Julia Well, so people say Sarah Pratt is not credible. I haven't seen. I don't know that I've seen stuff from her that was not so much. So, like, I guess you could say, take her. Like, take her with a grain of salt, like with John C. Bennett. She's going to be spot on in one area, just like with John C. Bennett, and then kind of not understand fully in another. She might have listed Joseph as having way more wives than he actually did. Just because she doesn't know.
John Dehlin Lucinda goes on to Nauvoo. Right. Or on the Utah.
Julia Oh, I don't know. I. I can't remember. I can't remember.
John Dehlin I'm wondering if Lucinda would. Did Lucinda say she was Joseph's plural wife ever? Do we know?
Julia That's a great question.
John Dehlin Maybe Dan will let us know.
Julia I just can't remember because I know some of the women left the church. Some of them didn't stay. Some of them joined other religions, and. I don't know. I can't remember with Lucinda.
John Dehlin Okay. All right. Well, that's pretty good for me. Nemo, what do you think?
Nemo Yeah. As we were going through this beforehand, I kind of said, you know, people will try and argue some of these sources. Some people will try and say this person was antagonistic or this was a bit late. I mean, we have no reason to distrust this source. I can't see a good reason to not believe it. If a good reason comes up to not believe it, someone can let us know. And then, you know, we can. We can change or we can adjust, but it's. It's good evidence as far as I'm concerned.
John Dehlin All right? And I. I'm guessing the church lists her as one. Okay. All right, let's go to the next one.
Julia Okay. So Louisa Beeman is one that the church even acknowledges. Brian Hills acknowledges that they had sexual relations. And the testimony given with her relative, Joseph Bates Noble, in 1892, he reported that he married Louisa de Smith. And he said, blow out the lights and get into bed and you'll be safer there. And he took my advice. Noble, under cross examination, clarified that he did not actually see the couple get into bed, but that he. Smith told me he did. There is no good reason to doubt that Louisa's marriage to Smith included sexuality. Noble Further testified under oath. Question, where did they, Joseph and Louisa sleep together? Answer right straight across the river at my house. They slept together. So very clear to me. Joseph Bates Noble stayed in the church. He was also a polygamist. There's no reason why he would lie. There's no real reason why. If polygamy is set up for children for having seed and multiplying and replenishing, why wouldn't they have sex?
Nemo Yeah, and I, I think, I think that's a good point. I think that under undergirds this whole episode really is that the burden of proof is kind of on those saying that he didn't, given that the church is acknowledge that he did with 10. The underlying revelation states that he should have been doing it in the attempts to have seed and offspring. Now, quite why he didn't. We can get into whether that's an open shut case, all that sort of stuff. But you know, he should have at least been attempting to have children with these people. And so with that plus the fact the church admits some of them, it's really the burdens on people trying to say that he didn't with the others to try and prove that he didn't. Because if there's anything that seems to suggest that he did, that's already in line with the other stuff we know that the church is admitted to.
John Dehlin And I'll keep this slide. I'll keep this slide available as well. But this is again, this is the slide of which ones the church acknowledges. And the church acknowledges Louisa.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin So there. All right.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin So that's. So that's, that's three down.
Julia Yeah. So Zina Huntington. So Nemo and I a little bit disagree.
John Dehlin Oh, wait, wait, wait. Julie, just one second. Two things.
Julia Sure.
John Dehlin Sally Osling says, just want to highlight Julia looks quite fetching today and not so much John and Nemo is basically what she's saying.
Julia Well, thank you, I'll accept it.
John Dehlin And then Julia, just to save your voice, let's, let's take turns reading the slides also. You read so dang fast, people.
Julia I know, I'm so sorry.
John Dehlin Too fast.
Julia So let me explain. I have 14. There are 14 kids in my family. That might be a reason why I have to talk fast. You have to get it out really fast.
Nemo I think it's actually because people are putting it on two times speed. Oh, maybe because they want to get
John Dehlin Julia on double speed. That's just incomprehensible.
Nemo Exactly.
John Dehlin Now me you can put on triple speed and it's fairly coherent. So.
Julia But yeah, Nima do you want to read this?
Nemo Yeah, I'll read this.
Julia Cool.
Nemo Okay. But you were saying, Julie, we slightly disagree on this one.
Julia Yeah, but I think. I think as we go through Z, maybe we'll see more. I die. But yeah.
Nemo Okay, so Zina Huntington was the fourth of the wives. She was already married, and she was age 20. Z married Henry Jacobs on March 7, 1841. She also married Joseph Smith in late October, 1841. She was seven months pregnant. Okay, right. She got to it quick. When she got married. That's it. She fell pregnant. Looking at those dates, in an interview with John White, Zina told him it was something too sacred to be talked about. It was more to me than life or death. I never breathed it. For years. In her biographical sketch, Zeina also said, when I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriage, I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in his church. I made a greater sacrifice than to give my life, for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honorable woman by those ideally loved.
Julia So this is probably where the controversy. Because I see this based on the next slides that we'll see this phrase right here. I made a greater sacrifice than to give my life, for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honorable woman to those I dearly loved. To me, that's. That kind of speaks to you.
John Dehlin Invoke honor.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin You're invoking sexual.
Julia If it was simply a ceiling. If it was simply a ceiling with Joseph without any sexual relations, I don't even know why even Emma would have a problem with that. I mean, unless she's going to struggle with polygamy in heaven, which a lot of women do. But like. But like, if somebody presented it to me that way, oh, we're absolutely not having sex. It's just for the eternities. I don't know that I would struggle as much or look to be thought to look upon with dishonor. So to me, that speaks to sexual relations between the two of them.
John Dehlin But in our recent episode with Sandra Tanner about Keith Erickson's bad apologetics, where he's deceiving people, we talk about dynastic ceilings where men, you know, prior to 1890, Mormon men were sealed in the temple to other men. Nobody called that dishonorable.
Julia Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin None of those men were worried about their dishonor.
Julia Right.
John Dehlin So why would. Why would she be worried about a ceiling only affecting her honor?
Julia Great point.
Nemo I made the point of perception, and maybe it's because I'm a Brit, and we do backstabbing in society better than Americans. But just the idea that she seemed to be married to Joseph, even if nothing was going on, could besmirch her honor in the eyes of society, because
Julia they could see that, oh, you're having sex when. When she can think.
Nemo Yeah. So what I'm saying is it's not evidence that she had sex. It could be evidence, or all it is really is evidence that she believes she would be perceived to be having sex with Joseph.
Julia Yeah, I think that's totally fine. Although the next slides.
Nemo I think the next slides help. But, yeah, on that slide, I was a bit like, okay, I'm not sure that's evidence in and of itself.
Julia Right. Okay, so this next slide, this comes from Annaliza Webb's book, wife number 19. And she was. She thought she was Brigham Young's 19th wife, but I think she was in the 40s. He had so many wives. But she wrote.
John Dehlin You want me to read this?
Julia Oh, sure. Yeah. You can read it.
John Dehlin Yeah, let's take turns. In Ann Eliza Webb's book, wife number 19, she wrote, quote, one woman said to me, not very long since. And again, this is one of Brigham Young's wives. Right. She said, a woman said to one of Brigham Young's wives while giving me some of her experiences in polygamy, quote, the greatest trial I ever endured in my life was living with my husband and deceiving him by receiving Joseph's attentions whenever he chose to come to me. How do we know that that was Zina?
Julia If you go to the next slide, it explains it more, but just ahead of us, I will also say Annaliza and Zina were both wives of Brigham Young.
John Dehlin Oh, okay.
Julia Just. Just. So, like, she. This isn't just some random woman. This is. These are. Anyway, so, yeah, the next. The next slide.
John Dehlin Are you saying were both of them Joseph Smith's wives then? And then they both became Brigham Young's wives?
Julia Ann Eliza was too young. She was. She was born in Nauvoo. She's really young. In fact, Brigham held her as an infant.
John Dehlin You're speculating she was too young.
Nemo That would be you saying Brigham held her as an infant and then married her.
Julia Yeah.
Nemo So in her book, Kimball has done that as well.
Julia Yeah. It's wild. But her book is really fascinating. We've reprinted it. You can find it on Amazon with the original cover anyway. But, yeah, so she'll explain it. So does someone else want to read this? I know I read really fast, but
Nemo the analyzer does not specifically name which of Joseph's wives she was allegedly quoting. However, her mother, Eliza Jane Churchill Webb, repeated the accusation in two private letters a year later, specifying that Zina Diantha Huntington was the woman. Eliza Jane's version of this account is there are women living in Utah now who were sealed to Joseph while living with their husbands, and they say it was the greatest trial of their lives to live with two men at the same time. Four months afterwards, she clarified, there is Zina, whose maiden name was Huntington. She says the greatest trial of her life was to live with her husband and Joseph, too, at the same time. Seems pretty. Pretty solid to me.
Julia Yeah. And again, like, if this was just a ceiling, why would they. Why would we even speak of them living with two men at the same time? Or if being the greatest trial, Zina's story, to me, was. Was really probably the hardest one to accept just because how poorly Henry was treated her husband, who loved her dearly. It was. It's just a really hard story. And she was seven months pregnant when Joseph took her as a wife. Yeah. It's just.
Nemo It's just wild because it was a dynastic ceiling. There's no need to live together. There's no need to cohabitate.
Julia And also, he could marry her brother, like he can marry another Huntington. It doesn't have to be Zina, but it was Zina.
John Dehlin Yeah. And just to drive it home again, this is. Now that you've seen that evidence, this is one of the wives that Brian Hales in the church would not count. So I guess my point there is. Is this is an example of the type of evidence that the church or Brian Hales would discount because it's inconvenient. But. But really, most importantly, we're not here to convince anyone of anything. We don't want anyone to believe us of anything. What we want to do in LDS discussions is show the receipts, let you, you know, review these accounts. You can go now to the primary sources, and y' all can decide for yourself whether you think Zina Huntington. And we would really encourage you go look at these sources that Julia's provided, think about it, and then come back in the chat and tell us what you decided. And. And we'll will feel great however you decide, as long as you're basing your conclusions on the evidence and not just on what some paid apologist is arguing to save or rescue Joseph Smith's reputation. All right, let's go to the next one.
Julia So this is Prasindia Buell. This is Zina's sister. She was the fifth wife. She was already married, and she was 31 years old. So she had married Norman Buell on January 6th of 1827, and then she married Joseph on December 11th of 1841. And this is a quote from Nelson Winch Green in his book 15 Years among the Mormons. Or I think it's a. I think he's quoting Mary Eddie in his book. Sorry about that. So Mary Eddie is saying, I heard the latter woman, Prisendia, say afterwards in Utah that she did not know whether Mr. Buell or the prophet Joseph was the father of her son. And it could have been either Edwin Buell, who was born in 1842, or John Hiram Buell, born in 1843. They could have been. It could have been one, or it could have been either one of those that were spoken of in the book. I feel like it's the only piece of evidence for presenting, but it's really strong. If she's not. If she's confused on who the father is, that's. That's. They're clearly. She's clearly sleeping with both of them. And I will say also that this evidence of. People say Joseph had no children in polygamy. I don't think that that case is closed. I have heard other historians say that that is not a fully closed case, that they've done tests on some of the children or some of the. What is that word? Postulated children, Supposed children. I think specifically only Josephine Lyon. And maybe Dan will correct me, but I think the only tests have been done on the Lyon family, and they did find out that that one was not Joseph's child. But I don't think those have been tested on other posterity or all of the ones that could have been Joseph's. So I'll just throw that out there.
John Dehlin Yeah. So a woman. A woman being quoted as saying she wasn't sure if her child was. Was Joseph's or her husband. That's a problem.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin And again, we should note that both Zina, Lucinda, and Presendia are three of the polyandrous wives. And so that's interesting. It looks like five. Three of the first five and four of the four. Five. Oh, my gosh. How many of the first 10 wives were Polyandrus? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Seven. Can we just make a point about this? Seven of Joseph Smith's first 10 wives were polyandrous.
Nemo So it's almost as though polygamy started with polyandry rather than gentlemen. It almost. It almost Started as a.
John Dehlin Do I have that right, Julia?
Julia Yeah. So I will say, though, that I've heard apologists say, oh, the reason he was marrying women who were already married is because he was scared. He didn't want to have sex with them. So he's just going to marry them and not sleep with them?
John Dehlin No, it's so that if he does sleep with them and a baby comes about, there's no scandal.
Julia I 100% agree. And I know some historians are trying to move Louisa Beeman specifically because she's not polyandrous. They're trying to move her down later in the timeline to make it so that he is only marrying women who were already married. And I disagree with that. I've looked at the evidence. There's no reason to move Louisa Beeman. But yeah, most of the first women are women who are already married. And I totally agree with you, John. I think it's because he's trying to. He's trying to not have kids. He's. Or however you worded that he. Because if he gets them pregnant, he has. He. They have.
John Dehlin Avoiding scandal. It's nine out of the first 12. That's so wild. I never realized it was nine out of the first 12. It was 11 out of the first 17. Like polyandry was the rule for the first 17 wives.
Nemo Then he got a taste for sisters around sort of 19.
John Dehlin This is so disturbing.
Nemo Sorry that. That was a bit crass, but you know what I mean, right?
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Wow. I don't know. And all this. This is why I love these series. I. I'm. I'm learning stuff. I just had no idea it was. Polyandry was. Was the rule, not the exception for the first 17 or 20 plural marriages. Okay, we've made the point. All right. Let's go back to the next. The next.
Nemo Number six.
John Dehlin Number six.
Julia So I'll. I'll kind of summarize this one because this is a lot of information.
John Dehlin So Agnes Smith.
Julia Agnes Smith was Joseph Smith's. That's his. Agnes is Joseph's brother. Sister in law. Excuse me. Agnes married don Carlos on July 30th of 1835, and they had three kids together. And then Don Carlos got sick and he passed away unexpectedly on August 7th of 1841. And Todd Compton says that in their journal on January 6th, Brigham Young wrote that they. He wrote a Masonic code. He wrote, I was. I was taken into the lodge. J.S. j. Smith was at. Was Agnes's. And he says that the was is code, meaning wedded and sealed to and Then from other sources, he probably married her on March 24th of 1842. And then if you go down in the same. In his. In his journal in Joseph smith's diary for January 6, it says, Truly, this is a day long to be remembered by the saints of the last days. A day in which the God of heaven has begun to restore the ancient order of his kingdom unto his servants and his people. A day in which all things are concurring together to bring about the completion of the fullness of the Gospel. And it is reasonable to read in Joseph Smith's diary that what he's referring to to restore the ancient order is he's talking about the levirate marriage, which means like your brother. That's what levira means. If you go to the next slides, the church. These are from the church's website on what Leverett marriage is. Nemo. Do you want to read. Do you want to read this one? Sure.
Nemo So the custom of a widow marrying her deceased husband's brother or someone, sometimes a near heir. The word has nothing to do with the name Levi or the biblical Levites, but is so called because of the Latin levir, meaning husband's brother, connected with the English suffix 8, thus constituting leverate. This system of marriage is designated in Deuteronomy 25:5 to 10. Also Genesis 38 is spoken of in Matthew 22:23 33. It also forms a major aspect of the story of Ruth. Ruth 4, 1, 12.
Julia Perfect. And if you go to the next slide, I just break down these verses and I'll just say, if you look at all of them, they are all about raising up seed to the brother. So the idea is if your brother dies, you marry, you marry your sister in law. And whatever kids you have, those go to the brother, they're in honor of the brother. And so the firstborn, which she bears, that's the brothers raise up seed of the name of the dead upon his inheritance. So it's a very biblical way of like helping this deceased person still have seed. Still have, yeah.
Nemo Because you give them his name and they are his heirs, essentially. And they grow up. Yeah. To continue his line.
Julia Yeah. So for me, him marrying his sister in law, that speaks because it's a leverage marriage. And because of what he wrote in his diary, how this is like, I can't remember the exact words, but like a restoration of the order of the ancient order of things. There you go. Restore the ancient order of his kingdom. This to me is speaking of sexuality. That's what a lever in marriage Is it is to raise up seed unto your brother. And that. That's. I feel a lot of people have. Have said that as far as this one. Anyway. So yeah, that to me.
Nemo But then the argument back by those who want to say that Joseph wasn't really having sex with his polygamous wives, which again, you can't really deny because even the church admits it. But for those who want to try and say no, that was a direct command from God as well. DNC132 says he should have been raising seed and he wasn't. Similarly, this command to take a Leverett wife was so that he would raise up seed in Don Carlos's name, which why his brother sounds like a mafia member still gets me even after all these years in the church. But yes, it's such a strange name.
John Dehlin Paul says we cut you off. Nemo is there. Do you know where Paul's talking about where we cut you off?
Nemo No idea. I'm used to it. Apologies, Paul.
Julia I'm sorry. Nemo.
Nemo No, I don't recall. But yeah, that was my point. Is like, you know, Joseph Smith, if you are believing the position where he didn't raise up seed, even though DNC132 says to then this lever at marriage didn't necessitate hate that he'd be having sex with her either. That's why for me, it's a maybe, not a definite.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Maven thinks it was talking about Zina, that maybe we cut you off. Did you finish all your thoughts on Zina?
Nemo Yeah.
John Dehlin Okay, really quickly, Dan Vogel corrects himself. He says there were four sets of sisters. He left one out.
Polyandry, Secrecy, and Church Leadership
Nemo So that is how we do it. If you say something that's not quite right, you just go back and correct yourself. Yeah, not that difficult. Thank you, Dan. Church leaders, pay attention, please. That's how it's done.
John Dehlin Stephanie Taylor Ewing makes a good point. Polyandry maybe wasn't only about hiding potential scandal or avoiding potential scandal. It's this, I think the words cuckolding idea where polyandry can be about power and a way of putting men in their place or pulling rank and establishing authority over other men. I mean, I think that's what happens in the bonobo kind of, you know, you know, primate kind of stuff and why we are primates. Pretty much, yeah. So, you know, it would make sense that we would model behavior that we see in the animal kingdom with our closest cousins. I want to share Sam Pinson's comment because I. Sam makes great comments. Bishop Sam Pinson was excommunicated after losing his faith. He and his family have a great episode on Mormon stories that everyone should check out, but he writes, I don't think I've ever encountered a Mormon for whom the question of sex and Joseph Smith's polygamy is actually relevant and I'll say, let alone problematic because they believe that whatever God commands is right. In orthodox Mormon morality, if God commands genocide, then genocide is right. If God drowns innocent children in a global flood, it is right. If God commands you to ask for a husband to give his wife to you, it is right. If God commands having sex with a 14 year old, it is right. And if God commands Joseph Smith to have s and it kind of cuts off, but I'm guessing he says sexual, it's okay. So Sam, your comment got cut off at the end. I'll say if God commands Nephi to cut off Laban's head while he's drunk and on the floor incapacitated in the first several pages of the Book of Mormon. That's how Mormonism's holiest scripture begins. So I think Sam makes a good point.
Julia I also wanted to say I'm really glad Stephanie made that last comment too because I was worried about part of this episode I was worried about because Joseph Smith, I don't think he did polygamy just for sex. I think he did it for a multitude of reasons and I think it was like power. I think it was trying to like like you made the really good comments, Stephanie. I can't remember what you had all you would have listed but it was more than just sex. But sex is such a heavy topic, it's controversial topic that I do think this has value in showing all the evidence just for sex. But I don't want anyone to think that Joseph Smith lived polygamy just for that. There was a bunch of different reasons why he did it.
John Dehlin A couple other comments that are fun Lauren Helms writes Mormon stories led me to chaplaincy school as a post religion agnostic. Thanks for always providing a valuable information and perspective. Happy for you Lauren this is kind of gross. Dan Vogel shares Some of Joseph Smith's wives were already pregnant. Lucy Huntington Jacobs and Sylvia Lyons. I mean I I'm not saying, I guess that while pregnant is inherently gross, I it's not but with with someone who's pregnant with someone else's baby, maybe, I don't know.
Nemo And it just again undermines the raising seed argument. I know Dan said in the comments, you know doesn't mean necessarily straight away but you know it kind of like, why, if you're trying to raise up seed, why are you taking someone away from their husband? Because women can only have one child at a time, and it takes nine months, so she's clearly already able to have a child with that husband. So if we need to raise up seed, leave her to it. Why are you trying to get in there and make that your child rather than the father's child? Because that's the only difference.
Julia Also, God. I don't agree with God's Mormon. God's take on polygamy. Because if you want more seed in the church, leave women alone. Don't let them. The women who are involved in polygamy have less children. Like men have more children, but the women have less.
John Dehlin On average.
Julia On average, yeah. So, like, the more polygamous wives, the less children. The less polygamous wives, the more children. So anyway, I guess if God is just focused on the one man and his seed, then sure. But if God is focused on wanting to raise up seed, righteous seed, then leave the women alone anyway.
John Dehlin Yeah, that makes sense. All right, let's jump back to it. We're on to number seven, which is Sylvia Sessions. Lions.
Sylvia Sessions, Patty Sessions, and Testimony Evidence
Julia Sylvia.
John Dehlin It's lying, right? It's not lions, it's lion.
Julia Oh, sorry, that was probably my mistake. Sylvia line.
John Dehlin Yeah, go ahead.
Julia Yeah, so Sylvia to me is one of. I don't know why the church doesn't consider Count her. I like. I guess I kind of do, because I've seen Dan Vogel's videos, but. So Sylvia married Windsor Lyon on April 21st of 1838, and then she married Joseph Smith on February 8th of 1842. Josephine Lyon recalls Sylvia Lyon, her mother, saying on her deathbed that she is the daughter of Josephs. Just prior to my mother's death in 1882, she called me to her bedside and told me that her days on the earth were numbered. And before she passed away from mortality, she desired to tell me something which she now desired to communicate to me. She told me that I was the daughter of the prophet Joseph Smith. She having been sealed to the prophet at the time that her husband, Mr. Lyon, was out of fellowship with the Church, Sylvia was married. Sylvia was married to Windsor before he was excommunicated. Josephine was Windsor's child. This shows that Sylvia believed that Josephine was Joseph's daughter. And it is convincing evidence that this. That Smith had sexual relations with. With his wives. Some of it got cut off. So Windsor was excommunicated on November 7th of 1842, nine months later. So it Doesn't. It doesn't line up what she was saying because Windsor wasn't out of the church yet, so she was sleeping with both men. If she thinks that Josephine was Joseph Smith's. Whereas the DNA tests come back and say that Josephine is Windsor's.
Nemo And fair Mormon pushes back on this and says, oh, it was, you know, it relies on a deathbed confession. I don't know about you guys, but when my parents die, I am absolutely stoked for the stuff they're going to tell me that they won't tell me at the moment. All sorts of stuff's going to come out, I'm sure. Right. Deathbed confessions are a thing for a reason. It's a time when people think, okay, something I've been keeping secret for a long time, I can now finally tell people because I'm about to be free of the consequences or because they feel like they want to be honest before they go to meet their maker or whatever it is. Right. But it's a. It's a thing for a reason. You're gonna. People tell things that they've kept secret their entire lives when they're about to die.
Julia So I don't, I don't. I don't normally a lot of weight into names, but I will just point out that her name is Josephine. And if Sylvia thought that she belonged to Joseph, I think the name is appropriate. It's. I won't say that's strong evidence, but it's something to think about.
John Dehlin Can. Can somebody explain to me, I. I'll be honest. I have not spent time paying attention to or taking seriously the, the modern polygamy deniers within Mormonism. But can someone explain to me, what's that?
Nemo Me neither.
John Dehlin Yeah, but can someone explain to me how a modern polygamy denier, specifically a woman, can take this account from Sylvia Sessions Lyon where she's saying on her deathbed she, she had sex with Joseph Smith. She's literally saying it. Why? You could just dismiss that and say it's not credible or blame it on Brigham Young. What is she going to say? That it was forged? That Brigham Young had a knife to her back and made her claim that on her deathbed, like.
Julia Or that it was a late account from Josephine or a family story that was incorrectly told? There's a lot of different reasons. The polygamy deniers, there's some of them that I don't know how they get around it. Like the temple lock case. We'll talk about those sources of these women saying that they slept with Joseph Smith. I don't know. I don't. I don't spend a lot of time listening to these polygamy deniers because they don't hold weight to me. But. But yeah, there's a lot of different reasons why.
Nemo Psychopomp says in the comments, if I can throw this up, they say, weren't Josephine's sandwich necessity tested and proven not related to Joseph Smith? Yes. Ugo. Whatever his name is. Italian.
John Dehlin Herrera.
Nemo Yeah. He went, looked into it and. And presented evidence that, yes, she wasn't justly related to Joseph. But that's not the argument here. The argument here is that Sylvia thought that Josephine was Joseph's. In order for her to think that, she must have been having sexual intercourse with Joseph, otherwise how else would it have happened? She didn't claim a virgin birth or anything like that, you know?
Julia Right. Yeah.
John Dehlin It's kind of disturbing. I mean, what. What would her motive be on her deathbed to say that to her daughter? Lying?
Julia No idea. Oh, I've heard other people say, though, that. Oh, she meant. She meant that because she's sealed to Joseph, that Josephine is sealed to him in the eternities. I don't think that's what she meant. Why wait till her deathbed to say that when it's innocent? I think that's silly to think that. Yeah.
John Dehlin All right. On the petty sessions.
Julia No, I think you missed Mary Elizabeth.
John Dehlin Oh, there you go.
Julia Number eight, this one. I have a different take on it, but we put it. We put a. No, because of what we'll read John or Nemo. Do you want to. Do you want to read this one?
Nemo Yeah, I'll read it. Mary Elizabeth Rollins married adam Lightner on August 11, 1835. She married Joseph Smith in February 1842. The angel came to me three times between the year of 34 and 42 and said I was to obey that principle or he would lay destroyed me. Mary Elizabeth was only 23 when she married Joseph in 1842. She would have been 16 years old in 1834. Joseph said that I was his before I came here. And he said all the devils in hell should never get me from him. I was created for him before the foundation of the earth was laid. Mary later commented on the polyandrous aspect of her marriage. I could tell you why I stayed with Mr. Leiter. Things the leaders of the church does not know anything about. I did just as Joseph told me to do, as he knew what trouble was I would have to contend with.
John Dehlin I mean, that sounds sketchy to me.
Julia Yeah.
Nemo So sketchy. But I don't see any direct evidence there of her saying that she had sex with Joseph Smith or anything in there that actually says, you know, there's all that stuff about, oh, Joseph said I was his before I came here, and all the devils never stopped me. Great. Cool. He was in love with her. But again, that doesn't necessitate that he had sex with her, I think. I wouldn't want to touch. Draw out conclusions from this that they had a sexual relationship just based on his insistence that she would be a polygamous bride of his.
Julia Well, and I accept that, too. This last part where she says, I can tell you why I stayed with Mr. Lightner. It's because I did what Joseph told me to do, because he knew what troubles I would have to contend with had I moved with Joseph, is what. What I'm hearing her saying. And to me, that. That kind of speaks to, like, being a wife of Joseph. But you're right. There's no. There's no clear evidence that she had sex with Joseph, just that he was, like, in love with her or was possessive of her relationship with her. But, yeah, so that one we put as a no. So.
John Dehlin So that was Nemo. That Nemo convinced you to downgrade it. Is that right?
Julia Well, like, I mean, no, he's right. There's no. There's no clear evidence of sexual relations. It does read that way to me. And if he's having sex with 10 of them, why not all of them? Why not? I don't know.
Nemo Yeah, yeah, but I just didn't want to make an argument from silence.
Julia Right, right, right. Exactly.
John Dehlin Yeah, that's good. Really quickly going back to Josephine and Sylvia, Dan Vogel tells us just the explanations. That one. One sex denier basically says that it would have been prestigious for what, Sylvia. To tell Josephine that she was a descendant of Joseph Smith. And so that was her motive, I guess to lie on her deathbed and mislead her daughter. But, I mean, that's. Maybe you can believe that if you want.
Nemo I mean, if she'd been living among community of Christ, I would kind of get it more. Or like the rlds as they were at the time, because that was all about who's Joseph Smith's seed.
Julia Right.
Nemo Who are his children? They're the important people in that community. But if she's amongst the saints that have moved to Utah, okay, well, it's moved on to Brigham Young now. It's his show. And, yeah, there is still reverse Joseph Smith.
John Dehlin People still revered Joseph as the prophet, though.
Nemo But I don't think there was anything really to get out of it in the way there would have been had she been amongst Emma Smith and the others in Kirtland.
John Dehlin Okay. And then Dan tells us that Brian Hills basically claims that she was a spiritual daughter, but not a polygamist.
Julia Yeah. And again, if you want to, Dan Vogel does a great job on those three videos responding to these apologists. So.
John Dehlin All right, let's. Let's keep. Let's keep moving on. The next one is Mary Elizabeth Leitner, is that right? No. Patty Sessions. Yeah.
Julia Okay, so Patty Bartlett married David Sessions on June 28th of 1812. So she's one of the older women. She was 47 when she married Joseph on March 9th of 1842.
John Dehlin But Joseph would have been younger. He would have been probably 10 years younger.
Julia Yeah. Yeah. But still, that's not. Anyway, Patty Session.
John Dehlin What? Still, that's not what.
Julia No, I mean, I, like, I think of that as being a big age gap, but, like, I'm in the dating pool now and I'm in my 30s. I don't feel like that's a huge gap. Like. Yeah, like, especially to think of sex. Like, is Joseph's like, what, 38 or something in 42. Anyway, I just don't think that's a huge gap because it might. Yeah. So Patty Sessions appears in Dan Vogel's list of wives with evidence of sexuality listed as. Yes. Dan Vogel's reasoning is that her ceiling was for time and eternity. And such ceilings for both time and eternity are admitted by Brian Hills to have included a sexual component. And so, like, outside of that, though, I haven't seen. Maybe Dan has more evidence, but I haven't seen any, like, anything that specifically points to Joseph having had sex with Patty. Also, sometimes he married these older women. Older that's not that old. But sometimes he would marry these older women and these older women would help for the purpose of. Help these older women, helping these younger women to convince them of polygamy or to help them get ready or whatever to take Joseph as a husband. So there's a multi. There's a. Other reasons why he could have married her as well, not for Session.
Nemo Is Patty Sessions down as a yes on the church's slide?
John Dehlin Let me, let me.
Nemo I think so.
Julia No, I don't think so, because I think Mary Heron is the only polyandris.
John Dehlin Yeah.
Nemo So she's not down there. Right. She doesn't count. But that's interesting because if Brian Hales says that if they're sealed for time and eternity, then there was a sexual component. Why is the church not following that standard consistently and admitting then that she probably was?
Julia Yeah, that's why I don't put a lot of weight into this. The time and eternity.
Nemo Yeah. It's almost like that isn't shorthand for whether they were having sex or not.
Julia Right. Yeah.
Nemo But if Brian Hale says it, it gives us reason to think maybe.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin I hate to keep going back, but Dan's given us some good stuff. So Dan basically says, you know, this is good logic that going back to this is Patia to Sylvia again and Josephine. He makes the point that it probably wouldn't be prestigious for Josephine to be known as a polyandrous wife, that that might bring shame. So it's hard to. It's hard to claim that that was about prestige. And then again, why would she be hiding it and only telling it on her deathbed if it was for prestige?
Julia Exactly.
John Dehlin That's a really. Yeah.
Julia That doesn't make sense.
John Dehlin Really good point. Thanks, Dan. We should have just had Dan on the show. We should.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Invited him as our fourth panel.
Nemo Send him a streamyard link, quick.
John Dehlin All right. All right. So are we done with Patty?
Julia Yeah, we're done with Patty.
John Dehlin Okay.
Julia So she's down as a maybe. So. So the 10th one wife is Mirinda Hyde. And I will point out I. I think I've said this on the show before too, but I go to Nauvoo pretty regularly and Mirinda Hyde, Patty Sessions, and Sylvia are all. All live on the same corner in Nauvoo. I just find that very interesting. So Joseph had easy access to these women, or close access, I should say. So, Mirinda, Nancy Johnson married Orson Hyde and he's one of the Apostles on September 4th of 1834. She married Joseph Smith on April of 1842. And then from a statement from William Arrowsmith, he slept. He's saying he slept. Joseph Smith slept at his mother in law's house, who was a Mormon when Joseph Smith slept with. Oh, sorry, hang on, I'm getting my people wrong. He. Orson Hyde slept at his mother in law's house. Oh, gosh. Maybe he is William. Joseph. Joseph has slept with the. Orson Hyde's wife under the same roof. Sorry, that was a really complicated wave.
John Dehlin Can you just summarize again?
Julia Nima, will you take that?
Nemo Yeah, I will take that. Absolutely.
Julia This is one we talked about off screen and it was confusing.
Nemo So some man, we're not sure who, I think it means Orson would sleep at his mother in laws who is a Mormon when Joseph slept With Orson's wife under the same roof.
Julia Yeah. Sorry about that.
John Dehlin So many pronouns.
Julia I know. Yeah.
Nemo But long and short of it, essentially, this is where that meme comes from. The picture of Joseph Smith, like, that's a nice wife you have here. Shame if someone were to send you on a mission, because that's what happened. Right. Joseph Smith married Mirinda Hyde while Awesome was away, opening up Jerusalem to the preaching of the gospel.
Julia Yeah. He. He blessed Palestine.
Nemo Yeah.
Julia For the saints. Yeah.
John Dehlin Okay, so we have a man claiming that he slept under the same roof of Joseph and sleeping with Mirinda Hyde.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin I mean, that's. That's pretty solid.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin And this one is. Yeah. Not acknowledged.
Julia Yeah. They don't. The church. Again, Mary Heron is the only polyandrus one the church acknowledges. Is Joseph having sex with.
John Dehlin Yeah.
Julia And Miranda's also polyandrous.
John Dehlin Okay. But that. That seems like a yes. All right, let's go to 11.
Wives Eleven Through Sixteen and Supporting Accounts
Julia So Elizabeth Durfee is the 11th one. John, do you want to read this one?
John Dehlin Sure. Elizabeth Davis, who had been twice widowed, married jabez Durfee in 1834. In June 1842, Joseph Smith took Elizabeth as a polygamous wife. She would have been 50 or 51 at the time. While no evidence for sexual relations exists between them, historian Todd Compton tells us that, quote, elizabeth helped Joseph Smith arrange new polygamous marriages, and was always the case. And as was always the case with Smith's polyandrus wives, she continued to live with her first husband.
Nemo Yeah. And we've talked about this in the past, right? These older women that Joseph would use to arrange the marriages to the younger girls. Right. They're a figure that can approach these young girls and solicit them for this arrangement. So he may well not have been having sex with these people. They may not have been his type or taste, but he could bring them into the fold to then use them for this purpose.
John Dehlin Yeah. It could always be for the purpose of plausible deniability, too, to say, hey, why. Why would I have sex with her?
Nemo You know, throw a few older widows into the mix.
John Dehlin Yeah. Like, see, it's just spirit. It's just spiritual only. It's just celestial only. Look, I'm marrying an older person as kind of a cover. I will also say, unfortunately, if you look at, like, Keith Ranieri of the Nexium cult, it's very common for cult leaders to have older women be the kind of go between with the younger women that the cult leader wants to prey upon. That's a common technique. Keith Renery did it and. And others do it. It's a common tactic. Really quickly, there's a comment. Adams writes off topic. Can Nemo add another event for his Utah visit? Yeah, we're having, we have a Nemo to a special event in Utah when he's here, hosted by us. And it, it sold out without me even notifying my audience. And so Nemo, your audience is, you know, wants to see you and it left no room for my audience. What are we to make of that?
Nemo Well, I think we should probably see if we can get a bigger venue, John, and see if more people can come to the party.
John Dehlin Okay, I'll see what I can do.
Nemo Yeah.
Julia All right.
John Dehlin All right, well, thanks for that comment. Okay. Julie, anything else about Elizabeth Durfee?
Julia No?
John Dehlin Okay, sounds good. Let's go to Sarah Cleveland.
Julia Nemo, do you want to read this one? Sure.
Nemo In 1826, Sarah Kingsley married John Cleveland, who followed Emmanuel Swedenborg and was not interested in joining the church. Ah, okay. So just really quickly as a point, Emmanuel Swedenborg, I believe is where Joseph Smith may have gotten the idea for the Three Degrees of Glory.
Julia We should absolutely do an episode on that one if we have.
Nemo So yeah. Okay. He was getting another version of some of the restoration topics.
John Dehlin Make a note of that, Julia.
Julia Yeah, I've already started.
Nemo So Joseph Smith took Sarah Kingsley as a polygamous wife before June 29, 1842. Sarah was 53 or 54 years old at the time. Sarah witnessed Eliza R. Snow's marriage to Joseph Smith. This was normal practice for previously married wives to witness the Mormon leaders new plural marriages. Sarah also served as the first counselor in the Relief Society. There is no evidence for sexual relations between Sarah Kingsley and Joseph Smith.
Julia So yeah, while there's no evidence, there's still really like the, the Emmanuel Swedenborg connections that they were witnesses to other, other women marrying Joseph. So again, like this what you were saying John, about the older women helping with the younger wives. So yeah, so no evidence, but very, very interesting for Sarah Cleveland.
John Dehlin Really quick, we, we, we had some of our viewers and listeners immediately mention Jeffrey Epstein and yeah, one, one commenter, Kurt Bradwell. How do you pronounce the first name? Ghis Maxwell. She was not only one of, one of his, I don't know, girlfriends or whatever, but she's known as, as one of the women that would help Kim get younger women. So thanks, thanks for sharing that. It's another example. JC writes, Mormonism arose in a time and place of social experiments, Oneida Shakers, etc. From free love to celibacy, sex rules. Key. US history is whitewashed. Much messier and weird. In fact, this is why this Nevermo loves history. Cool. JC so glad to have you in the house. Thank you for that commentary. Isn't that amazing? We have such wonderful. Never Mormons that follow what we do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nemo It's incredible. Incredible stuff.
John Dehlin Okay. All right, Well, I assume we can go kind of fast on the ones where we're saying no. Here's a maybe. So this is number 13. Go ahead.
Julia Yeah. So Delsona Sherman, she was the 13th wife. She was a widow. She married Lyman Royal Sherman on. In 1829, and then they joined the church. Lyman died in 1839, just a few years later. So they're married in 29. He died in 39. He was a close friend of Joseph Smith. And then Delsa's brother, Benjamin F. Johnson, who has strong connections in the church, too, provided the sole evidence corroborating her sealing to Joseph Smith. He says, the marriage of my eldest sister to the prophet was before my return to Nauvoo in July of 1842. And it being tacitly admitted. I asked no questions. Delsineau was sealed to Joseph Smith for time and was later sealed for eternity to Lyman Sherman by proxy in the Nauvoo Temple. Being sealed to the prophet for time only could indicate sexual relations. But also I underlined the tacitly admitted, Which. Why would. Why would it be tacitly admitted if it was. If they weren't having sex, if it was just simply connection connecting the two families? So I put this one as a maybe, because the time indication, and then the tacitly thing. And also she's a widow. I thought that was interesting, too, of a maybe she was playing a role in helping get otherwise. But.
John Dehlin All right.
Nemo Solid maybe.
John Dehlin Yeah, solid maybe. That's. Number 1314 is someone whose name I would have heard growing up, Eliza R. Snow. Not as Joseph's plural wife, but as a poet and, you know, a leader in. In the church. Go ahead.
Eliza Snow and Notable Incidents Around Her Marriage
Nemo This is where it gets interesting.
Julia Yeah. So there's a story here. I won't. I'll have one of you guys read it. Cause it's. It's a. This is probably one of the most interesting stories. There's a lot of people that say this story never happened. I disagree from a historical perspective, and I'll explain why, but. Nemo, do you want to read this story?
Nemo Yeah, sure. Perhaps the best known account that would indicate sexual relations between Joseph Smith and Eliza R. Snow comes from Charles C. Rich. Charles C. Rich called at the mansion house Nauvoo to go with the Prophet on some appointment they had together. As he waited in the main lobby or parlor, he saw the Prophet and Emma come out of a room upstairs and walk together toward the stairway where which apparently came down center. Almost at the same time, a door opposite opened and dainty little dark haired Eliza R. Snow, she was heavy with child, came out and walked towards the center stairway. When Joseph saw her, he turned and kissed Emma goodbye and she remained standing at the banister. Joseph then walked onto the stairway where he tenderly kissed Eliza and then came down on stairs towards Brother Rich. Just as he reached the bottom step, there was a commotion on the stairway and both Joseph and Brother Rich turned quickly to see Eliza come tumbling down the stairs. Emma had pushed her in a fit of rage and jealousy. She stood at the top of the stairs glowering, her countenance a picture of hell. Joseph quickly picked up the little lady and with her in his arms, he turned and looked up at Emma, who then burst into tears and ran to her room. Joseph carried the hurt and bruised Eliza up the stairs and to her room. Her hip was injured and that is why she always afterward favored that leg, said Charles C. Rich. She lost the unborn babe.
John Dehlin So the allegation by a totally credible pioneer founding Mormon who is known all over, you know, let's just say Cache Valley or I don't know if it's Southern Utah, Cache Valley, but I'm always hearing his name is like a really important founding Mormon pioneer, Charles C. Rich. He's saying that Joseph knocked up Elizar Snow, Emma found out, got mad, knocked her down the stairs and she lost the baby. And I. Go ahead, Julia.
Julia I was gonna say maybe not found out because if she's living in the mansion house, Emma, there's no way she wouldn't have known unless her pregnancy was not as far along. But yeah, I guess I was saying she was heavy. Yeah, heavy. I I, yeah, that, that add that added word makes me feel like Emma would have already known and just couldn't handle it anymore.
Nemo Maybe it was seeing it in front of her face with the kiss was the thing that sent her over the edge.
Julia Right.
John Dehlin Got it. Yeah. Okay. And you've got a video about this?
Julia Yeah. So this is a video I made exploring the Nauvoo Release Society Minute book. I'll explain in the video, but it just makes me, because a lot of people discredit this story of Emma pushing Eliza down the stairs. I've been to the Nauvoo Mansion house. I don't know why people would say that that's not the case. I know Brian Hales, in his book, he puts up the stairs from Joseph Smith's house in the Nauvoo mansion house. And he's like, there's no way that this could work out. Her being pushed, him seeing Charles seeing this happen. But I've been to the home. Like, it's. I mean, it looks perfectly fine to me to have witnessed this scene. And then I. And then this video, I explore a little bit more of what. What's happening historically. So, yeah, there's a story in church history surrounding Eliza R. Snow and Emma Smith. The story is that one day after Eliza had moved in with Joseph and his wife, Joseph met Eliza at the top of the stairs. He looked lovingly into Eliza's eyes and kissed her. She was several months pregnant at this point. Then Joseph went downstairs to take breakfast. A few moments later, in a fit of rage and jealousy, Emma pushed Eliza down the stairs. The story goes that Eliza lost the baby and she walked with a limp ever since. So the thing is, we don't know if this story actually happened. What we do know is that Joseph and Eliza were spiritually wed on June 29th of 1842. Then on August 14th of 1842, Eliza moved in with the Smiths on Emma's behest. Emma needed help with children and the chores. From the historical record, it seems as though Emma and Eliza were dear friends. However, on February 11th of 1843, Eliza stops living with them. In her journal, she records that she took board and had my lodging removed to the residence of Brother Holmes. We do know that there was some kind of falling out between Emma and Eliza. One thing that I was curious about is Emma's attendance at Relief Society. Wouldn't it be awkward to attend as the President having pushed your secretary down the stairs? Or awkward still to be attending while so many of these women were secretly and spiritually married to your own husband? So, with these questions in mind, I went and reviewed the Relief Society Minute Book. The first recorded meeting in 1843 was in June, four months after Eliza had been removed from the smith's home. On June 16th of 1843, it was recorded that Emma was not present. On July 7th of 1843, it is recorded that they were not favored with the presence of our president. Emma's absence is recorded for the next 10 Relief Society meetings, meaning that during 1843, Emma Smith did not once attend the Society that she was president over the next time that Emma appears in this society is on March 9th of 1844. And during the meeting, she read the Voice of Innocence, which was commissioned by Joseph Smith to proclaim that Hyrum Smith was innocent of polygamy. And again that same afternoon, Emma voiced the innocence of the church leaders in regard to polygamy. The next meeting was on March 16th of 1844. Just a week later, Emma addressed the society and spoke against John C. Bennett and his spiritual wife system. She advised everyone to abide by the teachings in the Book of Mormon, which essentially condemned polygamy. And interestingly, she exhorted everyone in the society to abide by Joseph's teachings from the stand. And this was the last recorded Relief Society meeting for the next 20 years. Now, I don't know for sure if it was the conflict between Emma and Eliza that caused Emma's absence in the Female Relief Society. After removing Eliza from her home in February, Joseph went on to take 17 additional wives. So who knows? But I thought it was interesting. You actually read the entire minute book. It really sounds like a dual purpose of the Society was to help Emma figure out if Joseph Smith was actually living polygamy.
John Dehlin Yeah. That was so good, Julia.
Julia Thanks.
Nemo But come on, I mean, we all know a Relief Society president has just gone AWOL for a while, right? That's. Or an elders quorum president, whatever this happens. But.
John Dehlin But if you watch our previous episodes, you'll know that Joseph hid his first. I guess I learned today 25 or 26 polygamous wives from Emma. She was sealed late to Joseph. And that, you know, we do a whole episode or more on John C. Bennett and the role he played in this whole spiritual wifery thing. But Joseph and or Emma and or other church leaders engaged in overt deception, not just to Nauvoo, but. But to the world as far as the polygamy that was going on. They tried to blame John C. Bennett for stuff that they were doing, but denying and to make him the fall guy. But ultimately, William Law, thanks to him, broke the story wide open with the Nauvoo Expositor. And we found out from Joseph's innermost circles that. That he was practicing polygamy and lying about it, even to some of his top leaders. And that's why we say go back and start from the beginning because we cover so much of this. But Julie, that was fantastic.
Julia Thanks.
John Dehlin Thanks to Fred for the. For the support. Also to Michelle. She writes, buy a cup of coffee. Is somebody yawning?
Nemo I don't drink coffee.
John Dehlin I do. I sure do. I Haven't had my coffee today. Anything else you want to say about Elizar Snow?
Julia So there's one more slide about her.
John Dehlin Okay. I don't know why. Oh, there we go. All right, let's. Let's run the slide. Here we go.
Julia Just because we talked about this before. Do you want to read this one?
Nemo Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Right. The most quoted statement dealing with Eliza Arsenal's relationship with Joseph Smith was made by Angus Cannon when recounting his conversation with Joseph Smith iii. He, Joseph Smith III said, I am informed that Eliza Snow was a virgin at the time of her death. I, in turn, said, brother Heber C. Kimball, I'm informed, asked her the question if she was not a virgin, although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young. When she replied, in a private gathering, I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that. I've done my best to read that in a way that makes it make sense, but I will go through and just explain it. Essentially, Joseph Smith III is saying he's been told that Eliza Snow is a virgin at the time of her death. And then Angus Cannon is saying brother Hebisi Kimball apparently asked her the question if she was not a virgin, although married to Joseph Smith, and afterwards to bring him young. And she said back to he was C. Kimball. I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that. I. Come on, Heber. You and I both know that. That he was never gonna let me stay a virgin.
Julia That's.
Nemo That's what that says to me in my best reading of it. But it took me a little while to. To work that out because it's quite a weirdly worded thing, and there's a lot of eyes, and I'm informed that, etc.
Julia Yeah. So sometimes people can. I guess people apologists can take that and say, oh, I thought you knew Joseph, like. I thought you knew that he, like, wouldn't have sex with me again. Polygamy is all about raising seed. This woman was single. Joseph would have had every reason to have sex with her to raise up seed again. Also, I'll add, she married Brigham Young later, and they had no children together. In fact, I think D. Michael Quinn says that there's no evidence that they even had sex with each other. And again, so it's like, why. Why did he marry her if they didn't have kids?
Nemo But also, if you want to get into the actual. The nitty gritty of the syntax of. Of this, Hebc Kimball makes an assertion and asks if she was not a virgin, although married to Joseph Smith, afterwards Brigham Young. And she counters. She. She answers contrary to that. Her statement is, I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that. I. E. I thought you would have known better than what you have suggested. I thought you would have known the contrary to what you're suggesting.
Julia Why are you even asking me? Yeah.
Nemo Yeah, exactly. So that's. That's clear that. The way that reads is that she's saying. Come on, Heber. You and I both know that's not the case.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Yep.
Julia Happy?
John Dehlin Yeah. All right, really quickly, Kendall, you. You get the coveted Julia. You get the coveted Dan Vogel. Nice Julia approval. I think that's awesome. Anytime Dan Vogel says, good job, I think that means a lot. So thanks, Dan. We agree. Also, thanks to Fred for his support. Kendall writes, julia's a gem. Her research is simply brilliant and illuminating. How's that? To get you excited about Mormon history again, Julia, I love that the world wants you back, Julia.
Julia Yeah, I need to. I'm. Yeah.
John Dehlin Not that you ever left. You didn't ever really know, but. All right, we'll hurry. We're on to 15.
Sarah Ann Whitney and the Secret Husband Arrangement
Julia Okay, so Sarah Ann Whitney. This is the one with the. The fake husband. Oh, actually, can you go back?
John Dehlin Sorry. That was.
Julia Yeah, you're good.
John Dehlin Okay. Here you go.
Julia Okay. So Joseph took Sarah Ann as a plural wife on July 27th of 1842. And nine months later, she married Joseph C. Kingsbury with Joseph Smith performing the marriage in April of 1843. Kingsbury was a pretend or front husband in this poly. Polygamous union. So. So it's becoming polyandry. The marriage ceremony between Joseph Smith and Sarah Ann imply that mortal offspring could occur. And so this is the blessing between Joseph and Sarah, or the not blessing, the marriage ceremony. I give you S.A. whitney, my daughter. So this is her dad. To Joseph Smith to be his wife, to observe all the rights between you both that belong to that condition. I do it in my own name and in the name of my wife, your mother, and in the name of my holy progenitors by the rite of birth, which is of. Which is of priesthood vested in me by revelation and commandment and promise of the living God, obtained by the holy Melchizedek, Jethro and other of the. Of the Father's holy commanding in the name of the Lord, all the powers to concentrate. To concentrate in you and. And through to your posterity forever.
John Dehlin Posterity.
Julia Yeah. So it's talking about posterity. And then according to historian Todd Compton, the following month, Joseph wrote a letter dated. What is this month?
John Dehlin Something. 1842. It doesn't matter.
Julia Yeah. April of 1842, to the Whitney parents, telling them it was God's will that they and Sarah come and visit him. He even assured them that he had a room all to himself and told them to avoid being seen by Emma at all costs. And finally, he instructed them to burn the letter after reading it three days after doing this for Joseph, he seemed to reward Newell with instructions to take another wife or wives.
Nemo It was May, by the way.
Julia Oh, May. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for that. Okay, so that last paragraph. So the first paragraph about the. The way the marriage ceremony speaks of posterity. Again, it's not a direct thing saying, like, they did have sex. And then this. That thing about the I have a room by myself, burn this letter, make sure Emma doesn't see you. That, to me, implies that they. That's one of the reasons that they're bringing her, is for this conjugal.
John Dehlin Why? Yeah. Why would Joseph Smith say, don't tell Emma and burn the letter?
Julia Right.
Nemo If it was just Emma's pushing people downstairs. That's why. It's for her safety at this point.
John Dehlin I'm just saying, like, that's sounding sexual to me.
Nemo I mean. Yeah. The reason I pushed back and said I think it's a maybe is you're a grumpy Brit. That's why I can hear the apologetic arguments, like, coming in loud and clear. And I think they have some sort of weight, I. E. The idea of your posterity forever. It's LDS theology. It's. It's eternal procreation. It's. It's having spirit children. Right. Similarly, this idea that. Okay, bring her along. But I don't want Emma to see.
John Dehlin I'm calm that week. I'm calling.
Nemo I don't want Emma to see. There's multiple reasons he could want Emma to. To not see. There's. There's a lot there that suggests this could be it. There's nothing there that suggests that he definitely wasn't. That's why it's a maybe. But there's just not the thing there for me to tip it over doesn't
John Dehlin meet the Nemo standard.
Nemo It doesn't. I. I wouldn't be willing to defend it in a debate.
Julia Right.
Nemo Well.
John Dehlin With Alex o' Connor and Jerry and Jacob Hansen. Okay.
Nemo Yeah.
Julia I'll just say I think it was also Nancy. Oh, my gosh. Rigden. Who. Joseph tried to make her one of his polygamous wives, and I'm pretty sure he instructed her to burn her letter as well, and she did not. So that's Just. Just thought that was interesting.
John Dehlin Was that the happiness letter?
Nemo Yeah, the happiness letter is the one that wasn't burned.
John Dehlin Check out that episode if you see one. LDS discussions episode.
Nemo So good.
John Dehlin Check out the happiness letter episode. All right. We have another one on Sarah and Whitney. Is that right?
Julia Yeah. So this is written by Wilhelm Wilm. Again, we've quoted him a few times. And then he. He asserted in his book that Emma Smith, whom Joseph made lead a life of misery through his infidelities, had founded the Relief Society for the purpose of spying her husband. At least Joseph often said so. Elizabeth Ann Whitney, the second lady who had. Who had been seduced by Joseph, he seduced her daughter, too. Sarah Ann Whitney. Sarah M. Cleveland. Cleveland, the third lady was the same who, as I have told you, kept a kind of assignation house for the prophet and Eliza R. Snow. You know her. So this is just a. Like, he's listing off people that were involved in polygamy, and he just lists off that Sarah Ann Whitney was also seduced. And the. The word seduced leads kind of implies
Nemo sexuality, but could also just be convinced into entering into this arrangement, whatever it was.
Julia Which is why it's a solid maybe.
Nemo It's a solid maybe.
John Dehlin Victoria Perry, thank you for the super chat. And she writes the history episodes are her favorite. So glad.
Julia Glad you like him.
John Dehlin Thanks, Victoria. Okay, let's go on now to number 16. Marth, is it? Martha. Martha.
Julia I'm sorry, you guys.
John Dehlin Okay, Martha Knight.
Julia Okay, so she's a widow and she would marry. She was married to Vincent Knight in July of 1826. But shortly. Shortly before his. His untimely death, he was. He visited her and he was like, hey, there was a. There's a woman who. Her husband died at Haunts Mill, and I'm going to take her as a polygamous wife. And she's like, oh, is that all? So she seemed totally fine with this. This arrangement of polygamy. And then within a month of Vincent's death, Martha was sealed to Joseph Smith in August of 1842. And according to Todd Compton, he says, we know virtually nothing about Martha and Joseph's married life, what it was like. And we little. We know little of Martha's life in Nauvoo from the time of Vincent's death. So. So not that it's a no, it's just that we don't know. Like, her whole life is kind of blank after this. And so that's why there's no. That's why we say there's no evidence for them.
John Dehlin Okay, that's a no. Really quickly. Interesting comment from. It's just me. They write I'm behind catching up in this person's opinion. Sylvia Sessions, Lion. I am convinced Sylvia absolutely had Joseph's child. Even if DNA ruled out Josephine, she, meaning Sylvia, lost a child right before Josephine was conceived. And again, that's speculation, but that's her opinion.
Julia I will say this is random, but I. As many times as I've been to Nauvoo and you go to the lion drugstore, they tell you about the children that she lost. And every time I've been there, the missionaries never mentioned Josephine. And I'm not exactly sure why, because she was born in Nauvoo, to my knowledge, and I don't. I just don't know why they don't ever explain her. Yeah, she's inconvenient. And I just think that's. I just have noted that every single time I go to the lion drugstore.
John Dehlin Yeah.
Julia So.
Wives Seventeen Through Twenty and the Partridge Sisters
John Dehlin All right, let's do it. A 17.
Julia Yeah. So Ruth Vose Sayers, Nemo. Do you want to read this one?
John Dehlin We're over halfway done. Are we? Are we almost halfway done?
Julia I think so.
John Dehlin All right.
Nemo In 1841, Ruth Vose married a non latter day saint, Edward Sayers. In August 1842, Joseph Smith was arrested for alleged complicity in the Lilburn bog shooting. Joseph escaped arrest and stayed a week with Edward. And Ruth Sayers. Don't let this guy into your house. In February 1843, Ruth was married polyandrously to Joseph Smith and continued to live with her legal husband. What her marriage relationship to Smith was like and whether Edward knew about the marriage are entirely unknown. It's like, yeah, this guy comes and stays in your house for a week and all of a sudden he's marrying your wife.
Julia Okay, wait, that's. That's a. That's a pattern that Joseph Smith has through most of these wives. He lived with them, and then he marries the wife. It's. It's all over, this polygamy. I didn't. I should have made a list, but that's all over.
John Dehlin And Dan Vogel says VO's is the exception that Brian Hales tries to make the norm.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Okay.
Nemo Yeah, there we go.
Julia Yep.
Nemo No evidence that they were anything other than, you know.
John Dehlin Okay. Okay. Oh, was there more?
Julia No, no. Yeah. I'm just going to.
John Dehlin On to 18. Flora Ann Woodworth.
Julia So I should have put in more information, but. So he marries Flora, and then in his diaries, William Klein's diaries, he goes through the Days. And this is just me showing how often he's going to visit Flora. And I don't know if we want to read all these, but. So in these journals, in these diaries, William Klain doesn't point. Oh, they had sex. But he's going there. He's. He goes there in May, he goes there in June, he goes there in August.
John Dehlin Let's read it. It's May 2, 1843. Tuesday. Joseph rode out today with Flora Woodworth. What the freak is Joseph doing with
Nemo Flora Woodworth with a 16 year old single girl?
John Dehlin And then. Yeah, exactly, that's so. June 1, 1843. Thursday, Joseph rode in the carriage with Flora Woodworth, a 16 year old single girl. August 23, 1843. Wednesday. President Joseph Smith told me that he had difficulty with Emma yesterday. I wonder why. She rode up to Woodworth's with him and called while he came out to the temple. When he returned, she was demanding the gold watch of Flora. What? Why the gold watch?
Julia Yeah, I'll talk about that later.
John Dehlin He reproved her. He reproved her for her evil treatment. On their return home, she abused him much. Does that mean Emma's beating Joseph? Basically. Or yelling at him.
Nemo Or yelling at him or whatever.
John Dehlin And also when he got home, he had to use harsh measures to put a stop to her abuse, but finally succeeded. That sounds like domestic violence to me.
Julia That's what it does to me as well. So the watch idea. So I think even he gave Eliza or Snow a watch, if I'm not mistaken. And I think that was sort of their. His way of sort of like a ring, a proposal ring. And some of the. One of the watches, I think it's Eliza's, is still in the church's museum. They still have it. But yeah. So Emma sees that this watches the. Flora has this and she gets really upset because I think she understands what that means. So I just thought that was very interesting. And then if you go to the next slide, there's more. There's more days. Do you want to keep going with this? Which.
John Dehlin Oh, there's more. Joseph spending a lot of time. Okay, wait, this is different.
Nemo Flora and Woodward. Y.
John Dehlin Okay, same person. August. He's spending a lot of time with Flora. August 26, 1843. Saturday, Joseph met Mrs. Woodworth and Flora and conversed sometime. August 28, 1843. Monday, President Joseph met Ms. Woodworth at my house. August 29, 1843. Tuesday. President Joseph at my house with Ms. Woodworth.
Julia So Joseph's with Flora at William Clayton's house is what it Sounds like.
John Dehlin Yeah.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin And you conclude, while no evidence exists that explicitly says that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with Flora and Woodworth, why the freak is he visiting a 16 year old alone so many times? Sorry, those are my words. His frequent visits to her and William Clayton's records, along with his insider knowledge of polygamy could easily imply that Joseph and Flora were indeed having sexual relations. Isn't it worth noting that the Mormon Church hasn't released the full
Nemo diaries.
John Dehlin William Clayton diaries yet?
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Why? Why is the Mormon Church hiding the full William Clayton diaries?
Julia It's a mystery.
Nemo Clayton's an interesting one. Because isn't it, isn't it some of Clayton's handwriting as well that surrounds the Book of Abraham?
Julia Oh, I can't remember.
Nemo And people try and say, oh, Joseph didn't write it, Clayton did. I'm like, Clayton also wrote sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. Like, this guy is clearly reliable in reporting on what happened. And I think that's why the church is now reluctant to release because they can't just write him off as an antagonistic, uncredible witness to the events. So they're having to. I think the reason they've not released it yet is because they've not come up with their spin yet. That's the cynical part of me. But I don't think the apologists have come up with their way of spinning it yet. So they can't release it to the public until they've got a way of justifying whatever it is in there that's
Julia problematic to them or they're not finished redacting. I don't know.
Nemo Yeah, maybe Chuck, because they redacted Wilford Woodruff's journals.
John Dehlin Yeah.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin So Chuck KV Makes a good point. He says, meanwhile, Joseph Smith slanders Nancy Rigdon for denying his sexual advances as being seen around town while Joseph is seen around town on what, eight different occasions with the 16 year old girl being alone with her.
Nemo Not for me.
Julia Yeah, he called Nancy Rigdon a of her mother's breast. He really? Yeah.
John Dehlin And it was only because she denied his polygamous advances and talked openly about the fact that he made them because he was lying about his polygamy and didn't want people to know. So that's horrific. There's no.
Nemo Nancy's a freaking legend.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin What's that? Nancy.
Nemo Nancy's a legend.
John Dehlin Check out our again, check out our happiness letter episode. Summer Rain. We love you, Summer Rain. Summer Rain writes, I grew up being told Joseph Smith was a loving and attentive husband. To Emma. My heart breaks for the trauma she and these other women went through. Thanks, Summer Rain. We need to have you back on Mormon Stories. Check out Summer Rain's Mormon Stories episode.
Julia So with that being said, there's. You had mentioned in one of the slides Joseph could have hurt Emma.
John Dehlin The abuse, domestic violence. Yeah.
Julia And then there was another. I found at least two sources that. That imply that Joseph Smith was. Was abusing Emma physically. So.
John Dehlin But there's also accounts that Emma may have wanted to try and poison Joseph. So it went both ways. Right.
Julia Also, as you'll see in the slides, their women were afraid she was going to poison them.
John Dehlin This is worse than Secret Lies of Mormon Wives. This is way worse.
Julia They should redo the show, but with Joseph Smith's wives.
John Dehlin Yeah. You don't have to make anything up,
Nemo you know, Nauvoo Nights, and it's just all the. All the drama.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin All right, let's go to. No, we're almost at 20. Emma. Emma Partridge, 19.
Julia Yeah. Okay, so do we. How do we want to set this one up? Because it's the temple lock case with Emily Partridge. There's a Q A. Do you. One of you guys want to do the Q, and I can do her part.
John Dehlin Oh, yeah, for sure. Go ahead, Nemo.
Nemo Okay, wait.
John Dehlin Explain. Give a tiny bit of background on the temple.
Nemo Go on, Julia. Background. The temple lot.
John Dehlin Yeah.
Julia Oh. So I'm pretty sure it's the. The Joseph Smith iii. What do I call that? The RLDS Church. They were trying to prove that Joseph Smith did not have polygamy. Did not have polygamous wives, and so they were. These women were brought in to testify.
John Dehlin Oh, Julie, if I get back up.
Julia Sure. Yeah.
John Dehlin Just because. Never. Mormons are newly questioning Mormons. No idea. So when. When Joseph Smith died, Emma didn't. Emma hated Brigham Young and didn't want to go to Utah, so. So Emma stays behind in Nauvoo, Brigham goes to Utah, eventually admits polygamy, but Emma stays behind and denies the polygamy ever happened, which is mind blowing because now she's lying. And we don't know fully why, other than maybe she was just embarrassed and hated it. And it's the reason why her husband was ultimately killed. But regardless, when she starts the reorganized Church, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, with her son Joseph Smith III, as the blood successor to Joseph Smith Jr. They start with the doctrine that polygamy was Brigham's thing and that the polygamy never happened. And so that's why the reorganized church is always trying to Disprove polygamy, whereas the Mormon Church is forced to always try and uphold polygamy, even after it ceased practicing it. Now, where does the temple lot thing come in?
Julia You might know more about the history than I do.
John Dehlin I think there's some contention over some land in Missouri, and I don't even think it's the Reorganized Church that owns that land today.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin But regardless, subpoenas were being, you know, sort of a. Affidavits were being collected. Is it. Can we just say, for a legal matter involving real estate?
Julia Yes.
John Dehlin Affidavits are being collected about whether or not Joseph indeed had sex with his plural wives. Right.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Okay, go ahead.
Julia Yeah. So.
Nemo Okay. Right. I'll do my best. Interrogatory voice.
John Dehlin So this is. This is. Is this an affidavit, this Q and A it comes from?
Julia Yeah. So Eliza's giving her testimony, and she's being quite. Or, excuse me, Emily is being.
John Dehlin This is Joseph's 19 wife being questioned in a Q and A as a part of a legal matter. A deposition. A deposition. This is a transcript of a legal deposition.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Under oath, right?
Julia Yes.
John Dehlin Okay.
Nemo Had you roomed with him prior to the night after you were married the last time?
Julia No, sir. Not roomed with him.
Nemo Well, had you slept with him?
Julia Yes, sir.
Nemo Had you slept with him before the 4th of March, 1843, their marriage date?
Julia No, sir.
Nemo Did you ever live with Joseph Smith after you were married to him, after that first night that you roomed together?
Julia No, sir. Emma knew that we were married to him, but she never allowed us to live with him.
Nemo Do you make the declaration now that you ever roomed with him at any time?
Julia Yes, sir.
Nemo Do you make the declaration that you ever slept with him in the same bed?
Julia Yes, sir.
Nemo How many nights?
Julia One.
Nemo Only one night?
Julia Yes, sir.
Nemo Then you only slept with him in the same bed one night?
Julia No, sir.
Nemo Did you ever have carnal intercourse with Joseph Smith?
Julia Yes, sir.
Nemo Thank you.
Julia Yeah, that was great.
John Dehlin I mean, that's under oath as part of a legal matter. Emily's faithful to the more mature to this point, Right?
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin And she was 19 at the time Joseph married her. Yeah. I don't know how they get around that.
Julia Yeah. And even if it's just one time, which. Anyway. Yeah.
John Dehlin She's saying yes, this is one of the ones. Okay. Oh, yeah. Okay. This is important. This is where it sort of starts up again. The ones that even Brian Hales in the church acknowledges. Right.
Julia Yeah. Single women. They're not married already. They're. They're of a decent Age.
John Dehlin So the next six are all ones. Just so people have it in their mind, the next six are all ones the Mormon Church agrees upon. Because how could they not? Right? How could they, how could they argue? Um, okay, so let's do Eliza Partridge.
Julia So this is Eliza now. So Benjamin F. Johnson wrote in 1903 that the first plural wife brought to my house, with whom the prophet stayed was Eliza Partridge, after which he was there with my sister Almira as his wife. So, yeah, just another. She's staying. They're at a different person's house, and he's staying with Eliza.
John Dehlin I mean, it's pretty straightforward. Even Nemo was willing to concede that one.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin All right. You know, I. I'm thinking maybe, maybe we should have one of these polygamy deniers on and just literally go through this PowerPoint with them and have them explain away each. Each one of these slides.
Julia Sure. If you can just share the whole thing with them.
John Dehlin All right, let's go ahead. Let's go on to the second slide with Eliza Partridge.
Julia So this is Benjamin F. Johnson again. I'm pretty sure this is a year later in 1904. He says, I saw one of my sisters married to him and know that with her he occupied my house on May 16th and 17th of 1843, which he had occupied with Eliza Partridge, another plural wife, on the second of the previous month. So he's acknowledging here two different women, his sister and then Eliza.
John Dehlin Was that Mirinda?
Julia Yeah, I think so.
John Dehlin Okay. Yeah, so he's saying, it was in my house. I was there. And the Mormon Church acknowledges this one. So yeah, this is an obvious yes. Now 21 Almera Johnson.
Julia Do you want to read this one?
John Dehlin Sure. In Almera W. Johnson's affidavit, this was a legal proceeding dated August 1, 1883. She said, quote, I had been fearing and doubting about the principle. This is how Mormons and fundamentalist Mormons refer to polygamy about the principle. And so had he. But he now knew it was true. After this. And I wonder who, who she's talking about when she says, I think she's
Julia talking to Joseph, that Joseph had doubts too.
John Dehlin Uh huh. I'm sure he was just. Joseph was torn up about this principle. Just totally conflicted. I just can't. I just. Please, angel, please don't make me. I can't do it. I don't want to do it. Don't make me do it. Sorry. After the. Sorry. Back to Almira Johnson. After this time, I lived with the Prophet Joseph Smith and his wife. And his wife. And he visited me at my home of my brother, Benjamin F. At Macedonia. And then it goes on to say, Benjamin said that on the 15th of May, some three weeks later, the prophet came again. Came and at my house occupied the same bed and bed with my sister. Wait, is that implying two women at the same time?
Julia Wait, which part? The second part.
John Dehlin Occupied the same room and bed with my sister. No, no, no, no, no.
Julia I don't think so. But there. There are other times. So. Hang on for a first note. So Benjamin F. Johnson's sister is Elmer. So in the first slide, the slide just before that, it was. It was Almera that he was talking about. There was another. I can't remember which source it is, but there was a man who went to visit Joseph and two of his plural wives were there. I just think that's interesting. I don't know what that means. Joseph was just having. He could have just been having dinner with two of them at the same time.
John Dehlin But what does it mean that Almera says she was living with Joseph and Emma. Does that mean Emma was okay with
Julia this sometimes or that? Because Joseph has the pattern of he lives with these women, whether that's at his house or he's at their house, and then he's like, oh, in my view, I want to marry this woman. And then he eventually does. And so that could have been what she meant there. I. I don't know.
John Dehlin Yeah, okay.
Nemo Joseph's just got the worst wandering eyes, like, and that's coming from someone with a literal wandering eye. So I feel like I'm qualified to. To make that statement.
John Dehlin Couple comments Shaylee. Hey, Shaylee. My friend Shaylee, she writes, loving this so much. Thanks, Shailey. We need to catch up. Can't Pray Me Away says, thank you for all your work. Church history is often so disturbing. Makes me sad. I believed it all.
Nemo Great Username.
John Dehlin Thank you for sharing. Can't Pray Me Away Claymore writes, didn't Emma at one point argue with Joseph Smith that if he could marry others, she should be able to marry William Clayton? I think it might have been William Law.
Julia I think it was Law.
John Dehlin Yeah. Not William Clayton. And then Dan Vogel responds and says, DNC 132 Doctrine Covenants. 132, which is Mormon scripture for those who don't know. Hints that some man was given to Emma, but that the time had passed. No one knows who, but it is speculated that it was William Law.
Nemo Something tells me William Law wouldn't have Been up for it.
Julia Oh, William Law's interviews. He has so much to say about Emma. He did not like her at all.
John Dehlin Wait. What does William Law's consent have anything to do with? Who? Joseph.
Nemo Oh, yeah, that's a fair point.
John Dehlin What does the husband's consent have anything to do with? Whether Joseph would have sex with the wife. Right. Am I wrong?
Nemo Yeah. Consent doesn't seem to have an awful lot to do with much of this.
John Dehlin Dan Vogel corrects us. William Clayton didn't write in any.
Nemo I see. I looked at this. So. So what I was talking about was in the Church's essay, they described just as mis encounter with the plates, which was something that was recorded by William Clayton. But what the Church misses out is a part where Joseph says, I have translated a portion of them and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. Right. Quite a famous statement about the Book of Abraham. So that's what I'm talking about. William Clayton wrote down that statement of Joseph Smith's. And obviously William Clayton is reliable because he wrote parts of Doctrine and Covenants as well. He was interested to write those down for Joseph. So we can't say, oh, he didn't record what Joseph said reliably, but yes, that. That was his involvement in that. That's what I was talking about there. All right, so always up to be corrected.
John Dehlin Yeah, we love it. We love our fact. Who in the world gets Dan Vogel as our fact checker? I love it. We should send Dan some money. All right, next one is wife number 22. These are going fast because these are ones the Church admits because they're so obvious. Lucy Walker.
Why Joseph Smith Had No Known Children in Polygamy
Julia So this slide, and then a little bit of the next one, she's answering kind of the question of why Joseph Smith didn't have children in polygamy. Nemo, do you want to read this? This slide.
Nemo Abso fruit. In 1888, Lucy also reported they Joseph Smith's sons seem surprised that there was no issue from asserted plural marriages with their father. Could they but realize the hazardous life he lived after that revelation was given? They would comprehend the reason. He was harassed and hounded and lived in constant fear of being betrayed by those who ought to have been true to him.
Julia And then in Webster's 1829 dictionary, the fifth definition of issue is progeny. So child or children or offspring. So that's what she's referring to. The sons. Joseph Smith's sons were like, why didn't he have kids? And then she's giving the reason he lived a hazardous life he was harassed, hounded. He was living in constant fear. And also these things can play along with women. I was told that when I served my mission to not be surprised if my, my cycle stopped, if I stopped having a period because of the stress and the overwhelm of a mission. And so like these women are also dealing with this as well. So it's like they, there could be reasons why that he didn't have children on the part of the woman, on the part of Joseph. There's a bunch of different reasons. I don't think it's. I don't think just because somebody doesn't have kids doesn't mean they're not having sex. That's not a. It's not a. That's not what that means.
John Dehlin Plenty of sex happens in the world with no children, right?
Julia Yeah, indeed. And also women in the 1800s, they knew how to, to stop. Stop conception. So we don't. These women weren't dumb. There was, there was doctors there, even Heber C. Kimball, he says that he even was taught how to have an abortion, how to handle abortions and how to handle conception, or how do I say that? Birth control. So these women know what they're doing. They know how to take care of their bodies.
John Dehlin And if, for those of you who are alarmed that we even would mention the word abortion in a Mormon context and in particularly in a Nauvoo Mormon context, again, that's why we encourage you to go back to the beginning and watch the LDS discussion series sequentially. Because in the William in the John C. Bennett episode that we did on LDS discussions, there were abortions happening in Joseph Smith's Nauvoo. And that's not disputed.
Julia Yeah. So the question. Absolutely. John C. Bennett was performing abortions in Nauvoo, the question only is, is, was he doing it for Joseph Smith?
John Dehlin Which we're not claiming, but.
Julia Right.
John Dehlin He was Joseph. He was like mayor. John C. Bennett was like mayor, co president of the Church. He was head of the Legion, Chief Justice. Like, Joseph gave him every responsibility.
Julia Right.
John Dehlin So it's, it's problematic and probably likely, but, you know, we don't know for sure.
Nemo Dan Fogel's correcting me once more. He said that was the Kinderhook plates. And he's right. I've gone back and looked at my notes. It wasn't place I knew it was one of the things that Joseph claimed to translate. That wasn't what he said it was. But yeah, no, it's a kind of place. I should just stop talking.
John Dehlin You should just give up.
Nemo I'm. I'm.
John Dehlin Clearly Nemo's dropping off Dan. Yeah, Dan.
Nemo If you want him my place, feel free. I'm just on my game.
John Dehlin I don't know if Dan's voice is quite as mellifluous as your British voice, so we'll keep going.
Nemo So if we can. If we can combine Dan's knowledge and intellect with my voice, then we're on for a winner, I think.
John Dehlin Yeah. No offense to Dan's voice. Dan has a great voice. All right. Do we have one more Lucy Walker?
Julia Yeah, there's one more. Lucy. Yeah. Do you want to keep going with Lucy?
Nemo Theodosia Francis Walker Davis, niece of Lucy Walker, asserted in 1876, Mrs. Davis, daughter of William Walker, Lucy's brother at Salt Lake, she says that Lucy Walker told her that she lived with Joseph Smith as a wife. Another woman named Angus Cannon, stated that concerning the lack of offspring born to the prophet's plural wives, all I knew was that which Lucy Walker herself contends. They were so nervous and lived in such constant fear that they could not conceive. An acquaintance of Lucy Walker, D.H. morris, quoted her saying, I married Joseph Smith as a plural wife and lived and cohabited. Cohabited with him as such.
Julia Yeah, we're hearing that she lived with Joseph Smith as a wife. They cohabited as such. And then they. Answering the question of the children polygamy. And they were nervous and they lived in constant fear that they could not conceive. So she's answering the question like she's saying, yes, we. She had. She specifically had sex with him or lived with him as a wife. And this is the reasons why more children were not conceived.
John Dehlin So, yeah, anyway, I have to stop for a Broadway reference. Little east as Nemo clearly hasn't seen Hamilton because. Dear Theodosia, what to say to you.
Nemo Sorry, what are you talking about?
John Dehlin Have you not seen Hamilton?
Nemo No.
John Dehlin Theodosia is a character in the Broadway musical Hamilton, and I guess they didn't think you pronounced. You. You pronounced Theodosia hesitantly. Clearly you don't.
Nemo Really.
John Dehlin You don't. You're not familiar with one of the best musicals of all time, so shame.
Nemo Is it. Is it now Hamilton? Yeah.
John Dehlin How is Hamilton not a top five best musical of all time?
Nemo I'm not saying it's not.
John Dehlin You literally question.
Nemo I'm relying on you to inform me of that because I don't know.
John Dehlin You're not a. You're not a. You're not a musical fan, Is that what you're saying?
Nemo Oh, No, I like musicals. I've just not seen this one, so I can't speak to how good it is.
John Dehlin I think it's on Disney. The Disney Channel.
Julia Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin Okay. You can just watch it, Nemo. All right. That's your homework, Nemo.
Nemo That's my homework.
John Dehlin Go watch Hamilton and get back. Okay. Sorry. Did I take us off track? A little bit.
Julia You're good.
Lucy Walker, the Lawrence Sisters, and Later Wives
John Dehlin Anything else you want to say about Lucy Walker?
Julia No, I. I don't think so.
John Dehlin Okay, again, she's number 22, and the
Julia church even acknowledges her.
John Dehlin So the church acknowledges her. Let's go to 23, Sarah Lawrence.
Julia Okay, so I will say that this slide and the next one with her sister Mariah are the same because they're both talked about in these slides. So Lucy Walker acknowledged. In 1887, I am also able to testify that Emma Smith, the prophet's first wife, gave her consent to the marriage of at least four other girls, Emily and Eliza Partridge and Mariah and Sarah Lawrence, to her husband, and that she was well aware that he associated with them as wives within the meaning of all the word implies. Emily Partridge similarly stated. She, Emma Smith afterwards gave Sarah and Mariah Lawrence to him, and they lived in the house as his wives. I knew this. And then Benjamin F. Johnson wrote in 1904, I do know that at his. Joseph Smith's mansion home was living Mariah and Sarah Lawrence and one of Cornelius P. Lot's daughters as his plural wives, with the full knowledge of his wife Emma, of their married relations to him. And so I will say, also going into Nauvoo, you guys should. Everyone should go. If you go to the Nauvoo mansion house, they show you how it was set up in the 1800s and how they had. He had little. It was a hotel. They had little rooms. And so this is where clearly a lot of his plural wives were living. And clearly, as all the word implies, he was having sexual relations with them in the Nauvoo House, the mansion house. Okay.
Nemo I'm just looking at flight times to Nauvoo now from Salt Lake.
Julia Oh, yeah. I think everyone should go do a little trip wild.
John Dehlin Yeah, this one's pretty straightforward.
Julia And so Mariah, again, I'm not going to read them all again, but it's
John Dehlin the same side two times.
Julia Yeah, basically the same slide, but there's a little bit more for Mariah if you want to skip over. So. So wait. So, sister. So Mariah is 19. At the time of their union, Sarah was 17. So. And then Joseph's in his in late 30s during all of this. So. Yeah, if you skip one more.
John Dehlin Okay.
Julia Okay. Nemo, do you want to read this one?
John Dehlin Yep.
Nemo The case for sexual relations between Joseph Smith and Mariah Lawrence is strengthened. Maria Lawrence is strengthened by the court hearing against Joseph Smith on May 23, 1844, where a grand jury for the Hancock County, Illinois Circuit Court indicated Joseph Smith in. Is that meant to be indicted?
Julia Oh, probably.
Nemo Joseph Smith for adultery and fornication with Maria Lawrence. In May, William and Wilson Law provided testimony led to the grand jury indicting Joseph Smith for. For adultery and fornication. The first count claimed Joseph Smith lived in an open state of adultery with Lawrence on and before the 12th of October, 1843. Joseph and Maria were married five months earlier in May 1840.
John Dehlin Wait, I did not know this. What court was convicting Joseph Smith of adultery and fornication in Illinois while he was in. I didn't know about this. What?
Nemo It's in the Joseph Smith papers as well.
Julia Yeah, that's where I pulled up.
John Dehlin Did you all know this, that a year before Joseph Smarterdom, he was convicted so. Of adultery and fornication.
Julia So somebody. Somebody suggested. And I think we should do this, too. Another episode that we should cover is Joseph Smith in the legal system and all these reasons why he was taken to court. And I just think that'd be fascinating. It would probably be pretty long because he was in court a lot. He was accused of a lot of things. Yeah. So that would be a very interesting. Its own episode. So, yeah, that's Mariah Lawrence. An open state of adultery.
Nemo Is it Mariah or.
Julia I think it's Mariah. I don't. I. I don't know.
Nemo If we go in musicals, then it's Maria, right? It's the Sound of Music. Anyway,
John Dehlin I do have to note, going back to the Hamilton reference, Phil Clegg is saying that because Hamilton, I guess, disses a little bit the. The monarchy doesn't have the most favorable portrayal of King George. Phil Clegg just assumes, as a Brit, you wouldn't. You wouldn't want to see it.
Nemo Is that Mad King George?
John Dehlin What?
Nemo Is that Mad King George?
John Dehlin I don't know. Whatever. King George.
Nemo I mean, we've had a few of them.
John Dehlin Oh, okay.
Julia His song is my favorite in Hamilton.
Nemo So, hey, we will mock monarchy with the best of them.
John Dehlin But we're not. Are we allowed to or we're not allowed to?
Nemo No, you're not allowed to.
John Dehlin Okay.
Nemo When someone picks on your little brother. Right. You're allowed to, but they're Not.
John Dehlin Yeah. And Cheris wants you to return a report on seeing Hamilton.
Nemo I will.
John Dehlin You say price of my love's not a price that you're willing to pay. That's. That's King George.
Nemo Okay.
John Dehlin All right. Maria Lawrence.
Julia Oh, we already did this one. So now we're on. Helen Marr.
John Dehlin Sorry, I'm doing too many things. Eleanor Kimball, 25.
Nemo So this is the most controversial one, right, Julian?
John Dehlin Okay, now we're off. We're off. The ones the church admits, right?
Julia The church. Brian Hills. A lot of the apologists will adamantly say this, that Joseph did not have sex with this underage 14 year old girl.
John Dehlin This is the most important one because let's just for everyone to know, she's 14, super creepy and weird. And this is the one the church is desperate to say there was no sex. Right.
Julia Right.
John Dehlin Okay.
Julia John, do you want to go ahead and read this one?
John Dehlin Yeah. Helen Mark Kimball. She was the daughter of Heber C. Kimball, right?
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin And we should just say, by the
Nemo way, who's the great aunt of Quentin L. Cook.
John Dehlin Okay. But also, isn't this the couple where Joseph basically called Heber C. Kimball into his office, one of his top leaders, and said, I have news for your Heber. I'm supposed to marry your wife, take your wife as a polygamous wife.
Julia He did that with John Taylor also.
John Dehlin Yeah. And like some weird, creepy loyalty test.
Nemo Abrahamic test.
John Dehlin Yeah. Because Heber said okay, which is disturbing, not faithful, not inspiring. Heber said, okay, take my wife. And then according to the account, Joseph like broke down in tears at his faithfulness and then sealed Heber to his wife on the spot. I. I don't know. Julia, what do you think about that story?
Julia I. I don't like any of that. But again, like the loyalty test, someone. I think Stephanie's comment earlier, like, she was. He was testing these men to see how loyal they'd be. Yeah, I think that's absolutely one of the cases. And then he did the same with John Taylor and his wife.
Nemo Like, but then I don't like how heavily he, B.C. kimball lent into polygamy later on. Like, I, I tell this story often, but I think it's one that needs to be out there in the Zeitgeist. The story of Mary Smithies, the first girl born in the uk into the church. He was. C. Kimball comes over, he goes to a place called Bartial Eves up in Lancashire, and he meets with a family and they have a daughter and they want her to be married in the. So they want her to be baptized in the local church because they think otherwise. She won't go to heaven if she dies, where, you know, death and childhood is common at that time. And he says, no, I'll bless her. And he blesses her and he says to this, you know, two week old in his arms, you will live to be a mother in Zion. Nineteen years later, she becomes one of his polygamous brides. So bit of a self fulfilling prophecy there, I guess. And she did father some of his children. And that is in a book that's just on my shelf. A book that he. That Quinton L. Cook held up and was like, this was written by the son of my great aunt Helen Mar Kimball Whitney. I was like, all right. So yeah, he was a Kimball wasn't great when it came to this polygamy stuff either. So it's all controversial around the. The Kimball family.
John Dehlin So with all if, if all that creepiness and weirdness and culty, like, disturbing this stuff isn't enough, Joseph's not only gonna threaten Heber to take his wife as a plural wife, he's gonna now say, I need your 14 year old. So go ahead, Julia.
Julia Oh, you want me to read it?
John Dehlin Am I reading?
Julia If you want to.
John Dehlin Oh, man. Okay, deep breaths. Helen herself def. Defined polygamy. Quote, it was revealed to the latter Joseph Smith, that there were thousands of spirits yet unborn. So this is Helen Marr.
Julia Yeah, this is her specifically. This is from her the little pamphlet called why we Practice Plural Marriage.
John Dehlin She did a pamphlet?
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Okay. This is so creepy groomy for. You know, you get her when she's 14 and then you have her defend the practice. I'm just, I can't stand.
Nemo Oh, well, John, John, Rachel Muir makes a really good point in the comments. Don't say she was 14.
John Dehlin Oh, she was.
Nemo She was almost 15.
John Dehlin A few months shy of her 15th birthday.
Nemo Yeah.
John Dehlin Thank you, Rachel. That's great. Also thank you, my dear friend Randy Bell for the super chat donation. Randy and I had lunch yesterday. We love you, Randy. More. More cowbell. More Randy Bell. No, but yeah, when the Mormon Church people won't get the joke. Rachel's joke. When the Mormon Church came out with its polygamy essays and the gospel topics essays, it. It knew that it had to admit Helen Mark Kimball and address the 14 month, the 14 years age issue. But instead of just being upright upfront and honest about it and saying it's true that Joseph smith married a 14 year old in the original Gospel topics essay, they. They said he did marry a girl. Who is a several months shy of her 15th birthday. As if that was going to make it way better. Right.
Helen Mar Kimball and the Youngest Wives
Julia Anyway, it doesn't say that anymore because they realized that it was stupid anyway.
John Dehlin All right. Yeah. So they changed that after lots of feedback. So anyway, Helen, having been groomed, is now defending polygamy. So, quote, it was revealed to the latter Joseph Smith, that there were thousands of spirits yet unborn who were anxiously waiting for the privilege of coming down to take tabernacles of flesh that their glory might be complete, which makes this plural life system an actual necessity. So that's hella Mark Whitney on why we practice plural marriage in The Juvenile Instructor, 1884. Several years later she also wrote, quote. Did you want to say something, Nemo?
Nemo I was just gonna say she's operating under the assumption that polygamy somehow brings forth more children, which we have shown to not be the case.
John Dehlin And maybe she meant more righteous children.
Nemo Maybe.
John Dehlin I mean, perhaps.
Nemo And then tabernacles of flesh is a very Mormon way of saying bodies.
Julia Yes.
John Dehlin Do we have any evidence that Mormon general authorities are more righteous than the average member? You know what I mean? And that their kids are more righteous?
Nemo I. I've never created 12 shell companies. Companies to hide my money. I don't know if you have, John.
Julia There's a puzzle or some of the general authorities have been excommunicated. So I don't know.
Nemo Yeah, I mean, I have been excommunicated. So as. As of all of us. So maybe we can't win on that one.
Julia This whole panel.
Nemo I've certainly never made shell companies to hide my money from people.
John Dehlin Helen Mar goes on to write Helen Mark Kimball, the principal was established by the prophet Joseph Smith, and all who have entered into it in righteousness have done so for the purpose of raising a righteous seed. Well, that's what the Book of Mormon says. And the object is that we may be restored back to that Eden from whence we fell. And again, we got to make that point. If Helen Mark Kimball, who was Joseph Smith's 14 year old plural wife, is here saying it's all about raising up a righteous seed, then she's saying it's all about sex and babies. Why would we assume Joseph didn't have sex with Helamar Kim?
Nemo She therefore must be saying that from first hand experience. No.
Julia Right.
John Dehlin I mean, that just makes all the sense in the world to me.
Julia So before you read it.
Nemo Well, she's admitting that she didn't enter into it righteously.
John Dehlin Right? Right.
Nemo Maybe.
John Dehlin Or Joseph didn't obey The Lord.
Nemo Yeah.
John Dehlin Sorry.
Julia Oh. If you pulled the slide. I just want to give a little background before you read this. That last. So there's a woman that they came into Nauvoo named Catherine Lewis, and she published this book called the Narrative of Some of the Proceedings of the Mormons. She published that in 1848, which is just a few years after Joseph Smith's death. So she. And this is her speaking. So, John, you want to read that last one?
John Dehlin Yeah. Helen went on to write, quote I heard her say to her mother,
Julia that was worded differently. So Catherine's writing this because she's hearing it from. From Helen.
John Dehlin Okay, so this is Catherine.
Julia So Catherine's writing. She. Yeah, Helen went on to say.
John Dehlin Yeah, I heard her say to her mother, I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me by saying that salvation of our whole family depended on it. And you're saying more than ceremony implies sex.
Julia Right. Like, I feel like that's what Brian Hills is trying to argue. These apologists are trying to argue that these are just ceremony. They're not actually having sex. But, like, she's even saying here, this is just a few years after his death. Catherine says, I heard Helen say this. Had I known it was anything more than ceremony, I would not have done it. I would never have been sealed to Joseph. So, like, I. That is a clear indication to me that it was way more than just a ceiling.
Nemo And that combined with the other stuff she said about how it's her understanding that polygamy is about raising up children, and we even did so what we did just to tell people how we did our homework. In that first quote, it says it was revealed to the latter. And we put brackets Joseph Smith in. I made Julia bring up the source, and we looked, and we're like, right, so who's the latter? Who's she referring to? Could it be Brigham Young and whatever. It was definitely Joseph Smith. So this isn't even, like, out of context or anything like that. She is just stating that her understanding is. And the understanding of Joseph Smith, who she believes brought this principle to pass, was that it's for bringing righteous seed into the world. And why on earth would she believe that about polygamy, having been a polygamous bride herself, if that wasn't her experience, how would she. How would she countenance the difference? Otherwise, how would she say, well, it wasn't my experience, but this is still what the principle's for.
Julia Right?
Nemo It would have been if she was being honest. She would have had to say something like that to distinguish between her experience of it and what it's meant to be. And she didn't make that distinction.
John Dehlin Yeah, I, I really like this comment Randy Bell makes. He. He says Joseph Smith lied to Emma in the world because he was not having sex with multiple women. Got it. I think that's a really good point, Randy Bell. Great point. That's awesome. Thanks to another B for the super chat donation. Also really quick, Eric Lof doll writes great program. We have an old song about a man who joined polygamy in Utah. The song ends with him moving back to Sweden due to his quarrelsome wives. So I'm get. That's like a Swedish folk song. What is that?
Nemo Yeah, I'm gonna have to look that up. Details what it's called in Swedish, Eric. And.
John Dehlin And yeah, Eric, we would love that. Thank you.
Nemo We'll get John to sing it.
John Dehlin Thank you for sharing that. All right, so that evidence is pretty strong with Helen Mark Kimball. But I can see why the church wants to fight it tooth and nail because, you know, once, you know, once you start getting into the 14 age range, you start inching into pedophilia territory, which of course the church doesn't want a label. And I, I'm told that post menstrual, you know, post coming of age women, you don't use pedophilia even if they're under 18, you don't say pedophile once they've had their periods of puberty. Is that right?
Julia That's what my understanding is. So I would never label Joseph as a pedophile just because of that. Like, we don't know. Like Helen probably, she was 14. She probably had started her cycle already. And now I don't like these stories of Brigham holding an infant. Analyze. I don't like Heber C. Kimball holding an infant and saying things like I. Not that I would accuse them of pedophilia, but I just think that, I don't know, it's just really comfortable.
Nemo Yeah.
Julia It does not sit well.
Nemo But yeah, I think it is fair to say at times that Joseph Smith's behavior was predatory in a social way that's indisputable.
John Dehlin Yeah.
Julia Right.
John Dehlin So Eric says it's an old song from 1915 recorded on a 78 record. Those of you who are young, young people don't even know what a 78 record is.
Nemo What's one of those, John?
John Dehlin Oh, it's just one of the earliest types of. Of record record Discs that, that we used to play in before.45s and before. Was it 33s?
Nemo Is that when you put a nickel in the jukebox, John?
John Dehlin Yes. Yes, it is.
Nemo Listen to the hip hop.
John Dehlin I'm forgetting what the size of a LP was like, not a 45. Is it 33? I'm forgetting my. My old stuff.
Nemo Are they sized in rpm?
John Dehlin I don't even know.
Nemo Like. Like the speed at which you play them.
John Dehlin It's been so long. Oh, 33 medium vinyl records. 33 was.
Nemo What does this show become?
John Dehlin Oh, something off the rails. Okay, let's go to Hannah Ellis, 26, wife.
Julia Yeah, so we're almost there. So single woman, age 29 or 30. So in 1869, lifelong member of the LDS Church, John Benbow, signed an affidavit affirming President Smith frequently visited his wife Hannah at his. John Benbow's house. So just that's pretty much all there is. Like, of course, the visit couldn't. It might not have been for sex, but it seems likely that it was. That's the purpose of polygamy.
John Dehlin So that sounds like a Nemo rejection.
Julia Probably.
Nemo Yeah, it was, because that's a Nemo downgrade.
John Dehlin That's a Nemo downgrade.
Nemo They were conjugal visits. Right. He just visited her. We can't say.
John Dehlin Okay, all right, so that's a. Maybe the 26th. We got a check for the 27th. Elvira Holmes.
Julia Yeah. So Elvira married Jonathan Holmes on December 1st of 1842. So she's polyandrous. She married Joseph on June 1st of 1843. So like a less than a year later, on February 9th of 1838, just months before her death. Excuse me, 1938, just months before her death at age 88, her daughter Phoebe recalled. I heard my mother testify that she was indeed the prophet Joseph Smith's plural wife in life and lived with him as such, during his lifetime. So just a very. She's telling her daughter. Yep, I lived with. I lived with him as such, as his wife during his lifetime.
John Dehlin So Nemo, it was as such, that prevailed for you on that one? Yeah, that's all it takes is as such. And then you're a convert to the.
Nemo Yeah, all it takes is for someone to say they lived with him as a wife. And it's like, okay, that's quite clear in its meaning. If it's like, oh, they were visiting all the time or he was just sniffing around this 16 year old, I'm
Julia like, okay, well, that's why Flora was a. Was a Mate. Right. Wasn't she solid? Maybe. Even though Joseph was constantly at her house. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin We have a comment from Psychopomp, who says a point that John has made in the past, which I wish he'd make again. Well, if you make it, Psychopomp is the misuse of this powerful gift of revelation reduced to gratifying Joseph Smith's libido. And it's not just that. It's not just Joseph Smith's libido. It's the fact that of all the genocide and natural disasters and bigotry and murder and war that has happened in the history of humankind, the only known instance of God, the Almighty Father, sending an angel with the flaming sword to force something is not Auschwitz. It's not World War I, the war to end all wars. It's to force Joseph Smith to have sex with the. With one of his plural wives. Right. Right.
Julia Yes.
Nemo Like, it's not even the Black Death being like, hey, guys, don't go near the rats.
John Dehlin Yeah. Like, learn germ theory. Hurry. Yeah, learn germ theory.
Julia Oh, my gosh. Like, the word of wisdom could have
Nemo been like, London, wash your hands before you do surgery.
Julia Please, Please.
John Dehlin No, it's. Joseph needs to have sex. Okay.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin All right. So as such, equals transaction for Nemo. That's good. So Elvira Holmes is good. We're on to 28. We're almost at 30.
Remaining Wives and Final Case Studies
Julia So. Rhoda Richards. So when she was 23, Rhoda fell in love with a man named Ebenezer, and they got engaged. Unfortunately, he passed away. It was kind of unexpected, but then she joined the church, and then she was later sealed to Joseph, and she was 20 years. Or she was 20 years older than Joseph. So she's another one of those older women. In her later years, she recalled her life of loneliness. She says, in my young days, I buried my first and only love. And true to that, true to that affiance, I have passed companionless through life. But I'm. But I'm sure of having my proper place in standing in the resurrection, having been sealed of the prophet Joseph according to the celestial law by his own request, under the inspiration of divine revelation. So just her. Just this sentence of her saying, I have passed companionless through life, that could mean that they didn't have sex. She said, one and only love. So clearly she didn't love Joseph anyway. That was just.
Nemo She seems to be pretty clear that this was about her standing in the celestial kingdom. Right. And if that's what she's saying, then I have no reason to not believe her. And also it seems to follow a pattern that Joseph Smith doesn't tend to have sex with the older ladies.
Julia Does not.
Nemo He does not tend to have sex with the older ladies. I'm not seeing any of the ones like over 50 have as having been. Yes, we have evidence.
John Dehlin Yeah, I mean, I guess that's fortunate for the older ladies. I don't know. Yeah.
Nemo And the thing is, if you'd been having children with his other polygamous wives, you could even make the case that. Okay, well, if they're past their ability to, to bear children, then of course he wasn't having sex with them and they were.
John Dehlin He.
Nemo But he brought them in to support the younger wives who were having children and etc. Right. But just there was none of that. So maybe like you said earlier, it was plausible deniability. Or more likely, I think they were just part of introducing the principle to other young women.
Julia Right. I mean, if the purpose of polygamy is spring and seed and he's marrying women who are past childbearing years, he shouldn't be marrying half these women anyway. They're already married or they're widows.
John Dehlin Can, can we just pause and ask? Put yourself in the. Try to put yourself in the brain of a 14 year old girl on the frontier. 16 year old girl, 18 year old girl, 20 year old woman. Like you think you're in God's one true church. You think you worship God's one chosen prophet. Like the chosen prophet of this dispensation, the man next to Jesus in importance. According to Mormons, next to Jesus, Joseph is the most important human who's ever walked the face of the earth. You're this 14 year old girl living in who knows where, Illinois. You're vulnerable. Your parents are there and you know that this prophet you're taught speaks for God. And then you're told God wants. God wants you. God has chosen you to be one of the prophet's special secret wives. You can't tell anyone, but you got to sleep with them. Can you imagine what that would be like? What type of spiritual abuse, what type of spiritual trauma that would be for a young girl?
Julia Well, Helen, in her journal, she talks about how hard it was she couldn't like rejoin society as a single woman. She. She talks about how she was restricted and held back. Like she really. Her journals are heartbreaking.
Nemo Yeah, that's why I talked about being predatory earlier. Right. It's the young girls that he uses the salvation of their family to convince to be involved in this. Right?
John Dehlin Like, sometimes I'm reminded that we're often jokey on these podcasts and we laugh and we make jokes and people call me on it and I'm like, why are we laughing about something so horrific? Because this really is horrific, right?
Julia Yes.
John Dehlin But we laugh and we joke and, you know, the easy answer is you. You laugh and you joke so you don't cry or it's just a psychological defense, you know, defense to not have to like swim in emotional trauma all the time. So I don't know if it's good or bad that we laugh and joke about it, but I. It probably is worth pausing to just note how serious and sick and disgusting and revolting and horrific all this really is.
Nemo Yeah. And that is encapsulated in the happiness letter.
Julia Yeah.
Nemo You can really see the pressure that he's applying to a young woman to try and get her to become involved in this arrangement. And it's pretty horrific. And, you know, think about the people in your life who are that age that you know, it's a good way to bring it home. Think about those who are that age that you know, and think what. What would it be like if you knew that a 37 year old man had approached them in this way who's
John Dehlin claiming to be God's servant on the earth?
Nemo Yeah. On that cheery note, should we move on to dust?
John Dehlin Sorry, I just killed the buzz. Keep going, Julia.
Julia Actually, Nemo, do you want to read this one?
Nemo Sure. Absolutely. I could pronounce this name. Desdemona joined the church, Mormon Church, in 1835 and lived in Joseph Smith's household in the spring of 1842, along with three other polygamous wives. Okay. Yeah. It really is a pattern of them living with him. Desdemona moved out of the smith home in May 1843 and boarded with William Clayton and his family. She and Joseph Smith were sealed in July 1843. Do you think William Clayton was involved in probably talking to about it? She gave a brief account saying, having been convinced of the truth of polygamy, I therefore entered into the order. But I dared not make it known, not even to my parents, for I was forbidden by the prophet, for it would endanger the life of Joseph and also many of the saints. Desdemona reported a night vision in which an angel told her that the polygamy doctrine was true. Later, she reported a dream in which she was warned that Emma Smith was going to pour poisoned me. I told my dream to brother Joseph. He told me it was true and she would do it if she could. Wow.
Julia Yeah. So. So again, not a clear indication that they were sleeping together. But she. She's horrified. He says, you can't tell your parents. She didn't make it known. And then this idea, if. If it was just a ceiling, why would Emma try to poison her? But Emma. Yeah, there's a. There's a history of Emma. Joseph Smith thought Emma was poisoning his coffee. He was terrified of that. And like these other women are scared that Emma's poisoning. I'm going to poison them also because
Nemo she's almost like all this sneaking around breeds paranoia.
Julia Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so. So a solid. Maybe not. Not a clear direction, not a clear indication that they were sleeping together.
John Dehlin Yeah. Yeah. By the way, can we just note, if we look at prophets in the Old Testament or even in the New Testament, some of the apostles, isn't it a hallmark of prophets, whether it's Abinadi or Samuel the Lamanite or Moses, where when you've got a teaching from God, you're willing to stand on the wall and face the slings of the arrows, or in Abinadi's case, the fire. To stand up for something that pisses a lot of people off, or that's really disturbing. Like, isn't that what defines a prophet? And yet. So why, if Lehi will stand up for what he believed and Abinadi gets burned for what he believes, and Samuel the Lamanite will face the arrows for what he believes, why is Joseph Smith getting off by lying and hiding things?
Nemo Well, it's worse because the church.
John Dehlin And why will God protect him? Why will God protect Joseph if God's commanding Joseph with the flaming sword to have sex with teenagers, why isn't God protecting Joseph from his enemies? Go ahead, Nemo.
Nemo And why is God revealing.
Julia Because.
Nemo Because surely we pray about who we call into certain positions, Right? So why is God telling him that William Law is the guy that should be on his first presidency, who's then going to turn around and expose all this in a chain of events that leads to Joseph's death? Right. That was a bad hiring decision.
Julia John C. Bennett and.
Nemo Yeah, and John C. Bennett also, who he really let into the circle. It's. It strikes me, though, that the church gets to have it both ways because they get to point to the towering of feathering of Joseph Smith. They get to point to things like Horn's Mill and all the persecution of the saints to say, look, this is us just trying to live our religion and getting persecuted for it. But at the same time, they also get to Say, well, of course Joseph tried to hide it because he was trying to protect the Saints and he was trying to protect himself and all this. I'm like, well, which is it? Were the Saints bold in proclaiming their religion and then took the slings and arrows for it and took the persecution, or were they trying to hide certain things and not really being great at hiding them? And when people found out, people then got angry at them and tried to chase them out of town because, like, we don't want this guy taking our daughters or, or whatever it is. They get to try and paint it both ways. But I, I don't think it works.
John Dehlin Yeah, really quickly I want to ask everyone to please subscribe to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. While you're at it, subscribe to Nemo, the Mormon YouTube channel and analyzing Mormonism YouTube channel. Also subscribe to us on Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, wherever you do. I want to thank our donors and I just want to let everyone know. Also, please like the episode. Please comment on it. But also, we aren't able to do these podcasts without your donations. Thanks to all our monthly donors that pay the bills for us. We lose donors every month. So if you value this LDS discussion series, if you value Mormon Stories and you want to see, continue, we really need your support. So please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor and we'll be able to keep doing this stuff really quickly. There's a couple other comments. Can't Pray me away. We love that name says thanks. It is important to pause and hold space for the women who suffered. Thank you for mentioning that. Can't Pray Me Away. King De Ho says Joseph Smith's polygamous sex must be viewed in context of Joseph Smith being a con man, malignant narcissist who did polygamy and Book of Mormon for his immediate prurient interests. Thank you for that comment. Lazy learner says yes, please do an episode on the legal system in Joseph Smith. So we've got a a vote for that. A couple others are coming in. The Sandy Stone writes Joseph Smith and Emma were not sealed to children. Emma with lost children would have welcomed that. The only aspect of sealing Emma ever knew was Joseph Smith's sexual escapade. You write escapade. I'm going to say escapades.
Nemo That is tragic.
John Dehlin Yeah, yeah, totally. So thank you, the Sandy Stone, for also those comments.
Nemo Can I say to people you may have noticed I've been, you know, chomping away. It's. It's that time of night here in the UK where I'm getting hungry. So I want to turn this into a little bit of a game. Every time you see me, pop a Dorito in my mouth, please like the video. I love it. So every, every time you see me do that, just hit that like, button. All right?
John Dehlin Just mute. Don't chomp in my ear. You got to mute.
Julia Thank you, Nemo.
John Dehlin One more comment. Psychopomp writes, we're not laughing at the suffering and abuse. We're laughing non humorously to the point to point out the absurdity and audacity of the abuse and people turning a blind eye to something obviously horrible. And I would say offering ridiculous apologetics and excuses for abusive behavior. Mormon church, Mormon apologists just say, Joseph Smith, like, be like Patrick Mason. You're probably most credible and notable active scholar because Richard Bushman, well, even Richard Bushman has said that Joseph Smith's polygamy is disturbing to him. But Patrick Mason came on Mormon stories and said that to him, Joseph Smith's polygamy looked a lot like sin. Just be courageous and call it out for what it is. Stop making ridiculous excuses and trying to deny the facts and the evidence. It's just so cringy and. But most importantly, it's, it's like being complicit, you know, it's like being a perpetrator to try and cover up abuse. That's what we call, we call it. We call it complicit complicity. Right. Somebody that takes part in abuse. All right, are we on 30th? 30. Olive Frost, is that where we are?
Julia So Olive G. Frost.
John Dehlin We're on the home stretch.
Julia Yeah, we've got a few more left. So she. So all of would. Would have been around 27 or 28. So within months after reaching Nauvoo, 27 year old Olive Frost became a plural wife of Joseph Smith. And Marianne tells the story. It was at this time in the summer of 1843 that the principle of plurality of wives was taught to her. She never opposed it. And as it and at as in the case of baptism, soon accepted it to her creed in practice as well as in theory, she was married for time and all eternity to Joseph Smith sometime previous to his death and martyrdom. In a journal entry written in 1902 by a church member named Joseph E. Robinson, he records that Joseph said he married Olive Frost, who had a child by him and that both died. This, however, is contradicted by another statement given by James Whitehead in 1885 that says that Olive died in childbirth, but more than 10 months after Joseph's death. Todd Compton mentions only that she died of a bout of common Nauvoo. How do you. What is that? OG Malaria. So there's a sickness in Nauvoo, Compton all. Compton also states that absolutely nothing is known of what Olive's married life with Smith was like, and that we do not. We do know from an account of her grief at his death that she was deeply attached to him. So. So there's a. Yeah. Time and eternity. Somebody says that she had a child by him, and then that was contradicted because somebody else said she died or the child was later after Joseph Smith's death. And then this fight.
Nemo Sorry, Karen.
Julia And then Compton says that we don't really know she died of malaria, and we don't know anything about their relationship here. So. But again, she. It was her creed. The time and eternity incident or the time and eternity with Hails, where he says that if it's both, then that implies sex and then also this. How to be a child by him. So. Yeah, but we don't know. I don't know.
Nemo I was going solid maybe on this one.
Julia Solid maybe.
Nemo Maybe. But.
John Dehlin Well, I'm glad Julia prevailed in at least one tussle. But we'll let the viewers and listeners ultimately decide.
Julia And I can see where you're coming from, Nemo, too, because, like, it's. There's three different stories about this and. Yeah, but.
John Dehlin Yeah, there are a couple. A couple important people in the house. It's fun. I'll just note Julie Diazvedo Hanks has joined us. Hey, Julio, we all love you. We're big fans. Julie and Margi and I got to see each other for a minute yesterday. And Julia, we're glad you've joined us. And also the Bishop's interview, which is Bishop Hinckley, who has a really cool, interesting new YouTube channel. Check out the Bishop's interview on YouTube. He's. He's a new up and coming YouTuber. He's been on Mormon stories. Pretty sure my. My mind gets foggy when I'm put on the spot. But anyway, Nathan Hinckley's awesome.
Julia Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin Glad. Glad you're joining us. Yeah, Nathan's been on. Okay, let's go to 31. Melissa Lott.
Melissa Lott's Temple Lot Testimony
Julia Do we want to set this one up like the Q A part?
John Dehlin Yeah, yeah, I can do it this time.
Nemo You want to do the voice, John?
John Dehlin Yeah, I'll do it this time.
Julia Okay. So during the temple lot case in 1918 92, Melissa was questioned concerning her and Joseph's relationship. And I'll have John ask the questions and I'll answer.
John Dehlin So this is another Temple lot. This is a legal. This is a transcript from a deposition in a legal proceeding, is that right?
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin So sworn under oath by a faithful Mormon woman.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Who is married to Joseph Smith. So I'm the inquisitor. There was not any children born to you by Joseph Smith?
Julia Oh, sorry.
John Dehlin Yeah. That was a question.
Julia No, sir.
John Dehlin Have you ever borne any children since that time?
Julia Yes, sir, I have.
John Dehlin State now, the reason why you never bore any children by Joseph Smith.
Julia Well, that is something impossible to do. That is something I can't tell.
John Dehlin Meaning it's impossible to know why, Right?
Julia Probably. Yeah.
John Dehlin Yeah. Okay, question. Now, you said there were no children born of that marriage to Joseph Smith.
Julia And I said I had none.
John Dehlin You had none by Joseph Smith?
Julia Yes, sir. And you asked me why I hadn't any. And I told you I couldn't tell you that. You would have. You would have to go to some higher authority than I to tell you that.
John Dehlin Did you ever room with Joseph Smith as his wife?
Julia Yes, sir.
John Dehlin At what place?
Julia At Nauvoo.
John Dehlin What place in Nauvoo?
Julia The Nauvoo Mansion.
John Dehlin And that's where Joseph and Emma lived? That's my editorial. Okay, question. At what place in the mansion do
Julia you know the number of room? Do you want to know the number of room or what?
John Dehlin I wonder if she's getting sassy there.
Julia Right.
John Dehlin Like room 12. All right, so he's like. She's like. In the kitchen. It was in the guest room. In the mud corners. Like in the bar. We did it on the bar one.
Julia Oh, my gosh.
John Dehlin I mean, what a ridiculous question.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin I mean, maybe not. Maybe he's trying to make sure she's not lying. All right, Sorry. We broke out of character. Well, just what part of the house the room was in, if you can give it.
Julia Well, I can give it. And the number of the room, too. I was in room number one.
John Dehlin Oh, my gosh. Room number one?
Julia Yes, sir.
John Dehlin Who else roomed there?
Julia I don't know of anyone.
John Dehlin So you roomed with him, Joseph Smith, in the Nauvoo Mansion in room number one?
Julia Yes, sir.
John Dehlin How often did you room there with him?
Julia Well, that is something I can't tell you.
John Dehlin In other words, so many times I can't remember number.
Julia Right, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin And then. And then the question is, well, was it more than once?
Julia Yes, sir. And more than twice. And then it keeps. It keeps going on the next slide.
John Dehlin Okay. Did you ever room with Joseph Smith at any other place or places than at the Nauvoo mansion and your father's house, that is, did you ever room with him as his wife? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Say no more. Say no more.
Julia And she says, them is all the places I remember.
John Dehlin Those are the only places you remember?
Julia Yes, sir.
John Dehlin Now, at the times you roomed with him, did you cohabit with him as his wife?
Julia And she says, yes, sir.
John Dehlin And you never had any children?
Julia Sorry. And she says, no, sir. I answered that question before and I told you no.
John Dehlin Okay, go ahead. Do you have to go? Julia, what time do you have to go?
Julia No, I'm good. I have at least 30 more minutes.
John Dehlin Okay.
Julia And then a year later, on August 4th of 1893, Melissa Lott was interviewed by Joseph Smith III. And she affirmed that she was the Prophet's wife in very deed. Do you want to do the same thing?
John Dehlin As if she hasn't made that clear. I wonder if he's gonna ask her if she had kids. Anyway, question. Were you married to my father? This is Joseph Smith iii. Joseph Joseph Smith's son, right? Yeah.
Julia He says, yes, sir. Or she says, yes, was you a
John Dehlin wife in very deed?
Julia And then she says, yes.
John Dehlin Why was there no increase, say, in
Julia your case, through no fault of either of us? Lack of proper conditions on my part, probably. Oh, she's blaming herself. Or it might be the wisdom of the Almighty that we should have none. The Prophet was martyred nine months after our marriage.
John Dehlin So, yeah, that's. That's pretty direct.
Nemo Lack of proper conditions.
John Dehlin Yeah. Like, what is she thinking? Her egg?
Julia Like, like she was stressed. I don't know.
John Dehlin Like, I don't.
Julia But I feel like a lot of Mormon women feel that way when they can't have kids, they feel like it's their fault. But anyway, I just, I relate with
John Dehlin that quick, quick comment from a viewer. Saipa Kiva Kapayas. That sounds Greek. If my ex wife would have simply tolerated 1/100th of what Emma had to deal with, I'd be looked at as a marital hero. Sadly, I'm just another run of the mill, divorce worthy apostate. Thanks for joining us. Sorry for that, for that divorce. Thanks for the comment. All right, so that's. I mean, again, how are the polygamy deniers going to deny. Deny that.
Nemo And he was lying.
John Dehlin And again, what's that?
Nemo They'll say she was lying.
John Dehlin Yeah, right.
Nemo Don't know why she would, but.
John Dehlin And again, Melissa Lott falls in One of the ones that Brian Hales. Slash. The Mormon Church admits to.
Julia There's no way they can deny that.
Nemo I don't think even Brian Hales could talk his way around that one.
John Dehlin Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Let's go to Nancy. Let's go to Nancy Winchester.
Audience Comments and Broader Patterns in Polygamy
Julia So. Nancy Winchester. So according 32. This is number 32 according to two church leader church members, Orson Whitney and Nancy's friend Helen. Nancy Mariah was one of Joseph Smith's plural wives, though there is no date for her marriage to Joseph. The best hypothesis is that the ceremony took place in 1843. Since the last record. Since the last recorded plural marriage to Smith took place on November 2nd of 1843. If so, she became his wife at the age of 14 or 15. Nothing more is known of this union.
John Dehlin So that's just an insufficient information.
Julia Right.
Nemo And even. Even if it was 1844, she was still 15 or 16.
Julia Right.
Nemo And that doesn't make it much better.
Julia No.
John Dehlin This is the second 14 year old.
Julia Yes. Second 14 year old.
John Dehlin Okay. Along.
Julia And Orson Whitney, he's one of the apostles, so I don't. Anyway. Yeah, yeah. He has polygamy connections too, so it's just so creepy.
John Dehlin Joseph's like, I have to have 30 wives. Let's pick 14 year olds. Like, there's lots of women. There's lots of other women he could have picked. Right. Why is he picking the 14 year olds?
Julia And why is he picking women who are already married?
John Dehlin It makes no sense.
Nemo So it was like he's just picking the ones he wants.
John Dehlin Yeah. The hot ones to him, you know?
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Okay. 33. Fannie Murray does.
Julia Do you want. You guys want to read this one?
Nemo Yeah, I'll go for it.
Julia Okay.
Nemo Fanny Young, who was twice widowed, was one day discussing exaltation and celestial marriage with Joseph Smith and her brother Brigham Young. As Brigham tells the story, Fanny gave her opinion on the subject. Now, don't talk to me. When I get into the celestial kingdom, if I ever do get there, I shall request the privilege of being a ministering angel. That is the labor that I wish to perform. I don't want any companion in that world. And if the Lord will make me a ministering angel, it is all I want. Joseph replied, sister, you talk very foolishly. You do not know what you will want. He turned to her brother. She turned to her brother. Here, brother Brigham, you seal this lady to me. After which Brigham Young married Smith to Fanny on the spot. Fanny was six days from turning 56 years old, while Joseph was 38. No evidence exists of sexual relations. I think she was actively against it.
Julia Right. So like this consent idea, she just said no and she can't say no to the prophet or that's how.
Nemo Nonsense.
John Dehlin Brigham.
Julia Marry her to me now on the spot, like anyway. Yeah, yeah. So this is another widow. There doesn't seem to be. We don't. There's no reason for us to believe that she helped with other polygamous unions. But I just. This whole story is wild to me.
Nemo I mean this could be, you know this if you were looking at the idea of dynastic things, right. You've got a 56 year old widow, but Brigham Young's an important figure and Joseph Smith wants to be dynastically sealed to her. Like if that's what all of Joseph's polygamy was, I'd buy that argument. If it was all like the elderly widowed sisters of men. He wanted to be close to the black. And there's no evidence that he had sex any of them. You're like, okay, cool, I can buy that. But again, it's like Dan Vogel said earlier, people try and take these exceptions and then make them the rule.
Julia Right. But also like they were sealing men to men. He could have just sealed himself to bring them.
Nemo Exactly, yeah.
Julia Like I don't.
John Dehlin Anyway, couple. Couple comments worth mentioning. Maven writes polygamy necessarily starts creating competition for younger brides. Gotta stake your claim before another man. And you could say that that's a really cynical view of mavens. But we, we literally have quotes from general authorities later on in Utah complaining that certain men were given first dibs on the sex trafficked European immigrant women that were brought over. And they're basically saying, y' all tell me if I'm wrong. It's like, hey, y' all are taking all the good looking ones. You need to give others of us a chance at the hot European immigrant women. Right.
Nemo I believe some of the words were it is not to be as it is heretofore been or something like that. And then give. Let. Let us have a fair shake, I believe is also the phrase, and that is our friend he BC Kimball, as far as I'm aware of. Yeah, you said that.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin So it's not taking all the hot ones. Basically spread the hot ones around.
Nemo Basically like, stop marrying all the hot ones in England. Bring them here first and then let us have a fair shake. That is have an auction.
John Dehlin Maybe. An auction would work. Maybe.
Julia And, and John, you're. You're categorizing that as human trafficking is Absolutely. What was happening? The Nava Expositor, William Law, talks about that. He's like, these women have no idea what they're doing. They're coming in from different countries and they're. They're being coerced into polygamy. So.
John Dehlin And Maven. Maven noted earlier that we should just remind everybody that we did an episode, you know, called basically was Joseph Smith the Sex Trafficker. I think that was episode 1794, according to Maven, but I think he absolutely meets criteria.
Julia Yes.
John Dehlin As a sex trafficker. And again, I know those are harsh words. Watch the episode and just look at the. If you just read the Nauvoo Expositor, William Law, Joseph Smith's co. President or second in command, literally talks about these Scandinavian poor, impoverished or British women that were shipped over in boats with missionaries in the UK and in Europe, lying, saying there is no polygamy. Then they ship these teenage European women over who are, you know, teenagers. They get here to Nauvoo or wherever, not even speaking the language of English, and they're. They're distributed to. To powerful Mormon leaders as their polygamous wives, not even speaking English, and they're poor. How can you not call that sex trafficking?
Julia Right.
John Dehlin Right. Yeah. Now, Nemo, you're European, so you. You can reject, you know, anything I'm saying.
Nemo Well, I. From the British perspective, there's less of the language barrier. Well, maybe there's still a language barrier, but, you know, it was very keenly felt by Brits for a long time that Mormons were coming over here, taking people away. Yeah. There's newspaper articles all about it. You know, people rejecting this idea. Once polygamy kind of came out, and we realized that was what's going on. The. The missionary work in the UK went like this. Right. As soon as it became clear what was going on in the Utah Territories, people stopped going over in quite such, you know, with quite such abandon. So. Yeah. And then. Then the Mormons have not had a good name ever since because it was very clear that that's what was going on.
John Dehlin Somebody's asking me to put in the show notes the episode 1794. I'll paste the YouTube link here in the chat and y' all can. Y' all are also free. Maven or Julia can add that to the show notes.
Julia Oh, yeah, for sure.
Nemo We also just say real quick on the point of Heba C. Kimball, that quote, right. About it's not to be as it's been heretofore. I've just found it on Fair Latter Day Saints. It's from Stanley P. Hirshon's book, the lion of the Lord. And the full quote is, brethren, I want you to understand that, that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here and bringing on the ugly ones for us Hereafter. You have to bring them all here before taking any of them and let us all have a fair shake. Fair Mormon's Only Defenses the quote from Hershon gives no indication regarding who heard Kimball say this. They're not like, he didn't say it. We're like, oh, we just don't know who heard him say it. Is that. Is that really your only defense of that? Well, I guess maybe that is the only defense they can mount against that quote because it is pretty indefensible. Anyway, I just thought that was interesting.
John Dehlin Absolutely. And I'm. I'm. I just found the Mormon stories link as well, and I'll include it. Y' all can check that out since sex trafficking is such a popular topic these days. All right, Esther Dutcher, are we two away from finishing? Yeah, we're almost done.
Julia Nima, do you want to read this one?
Nemo Absolutely. Another wife that Todd Compton does not include in his book is Esther Dutcher. Her relationship with Joseph Smith is among the poorest documented of all his plural wives. Esther married her husband Albert in 1826. Only one late source exists. However, since it came from a reliable source, we will include her in a letter written by Daniel H. Wells to Joseph F. Smith on June 25, 1888. He explained that Esther's husband, he, Albert Smith, was also much afflicted with the loss of his first wife. It seems that she was sealed to Joseph the Prophet in the days of Nauvoo, though she still remained his wife and afterwards nearly broke his heart by telling him of it and expressing her intention of adhering to that relationship. He, however, got the feeling, got to feeling better over it, and acting for Joseph, had her sealed to him and to himself for time. On the third page of the letter, Daniel H. Wells also tells Joseph F. Smith that not long before her death, she committed adultery. The old gentleman is sadly grieved over this. Her husband was concerned that she would be destroyed for her crime, but hoped that her ceiling to Joseph Smith would save her. While this letter does not point directly to any sexual relation that Esther Dutcher had with Joseph Smith, the heartbreak and secrecy could allude to sexuality in the extramarital relationship. I think that's fair.
Julia Yeah. That's just like looking at the letter. It was really interesting. But yeah. So if it was simply a ceiling with no sex involved, I'm not sure. I mean, you could say his heart could have been broken just because he won't be sealed to her in eternity because he was only sealed to her for time. So that's, that's why it's a solid maybe rather than a, than a yes. But to me that indicates that like it nearly broke his heart when she told him afterwards. Anyway, that seems to indicate that they were living as husband and wife. And then this idea later that she was. Had an extramarital relationship with another gentleman. I don't know, I just thought that was a really interesting thing that he added in the letter. So. Yeah.
John Dehlin All right, one more to go.
Julia One more. This is Mary Heron. So one of the wives that Todd Compton does not include in his book is also Mary Heron. Brian C. Hales, however, does include her. Mary Heron was married to John Snyder. And historian D. Michael Quinn also wrote about Joseph's relationships with Mary Heron. Quinn wrote, using a slang of vulgarity for sexual intercourse, her Mary Heron. Snyder's son in law, Joseph E. Johnson, privately told a group of Devout Mormons in 1850 he was familiar with the first frigging that was done in his house with his mother in law by Joseph Johnson said this during a council meeting that was deciding whether to excommunicate him for impregnating one of Apostle Lorenzo Snow's plural wives whom Johnson now wanted to marry. She loved him, not the apostle. A church court in Kanesville, Iowa had already decided that his priesthood was required to be laid down. That is, he was disfellowshipped until he came here to Salt Lake City. I cannot take seriously the suggestion by Hales that this church court's official minutes misquoted Johnson's words. First, by any reasonable logic, who would assume that any LDS clerk introduced a crudely sexual term into a non sexual remark or into a remark that only implied sex? Second, by 1850, the LDS Church clerks routinely used stenographic shorthand to accurately record such meetings, especially when Brigham Young participated, as he did in this one. So that's D. Michael Quinn's. He's kind of arguing with Hails there. He's saying that this looks exactly like what it says. This is, this is implying sexual relations between the two of them. He's calling it a frigging. And why would they put that word in there if it, that's. If it Wasn't.
John Dehlin And that's a slur. That word frigging is a slur.
Julia Yes.
Nemo Okay. Slang, vulgarity for sexual intercourse in.
John Dehlin In Britain today.
Nemo Well, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's a. It's a. It's a softer way of dropping the F bomb.
John Dehlin Okay.
Julia Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's. This is. She's the last wife that I have listed. Of course, there's more that I didn't include because of the. The weak evidence, but she's coming from a really reliable source, so.
John Dehlin So if we share the list again, there it is. So many greens. The majority are greens. Of the 35 wives, plural wives, not counting Emma, over half. We've. We've. We've shown really good evidence that they were yeses on the sex. How many did we say greens we have?
Julia Oh, I have. I have a slide where I. I. But that's at the very end. Yeah.
John Dehlin Okay.
Nemo But this is why I didn't feel bad for, you know, being extra cautious and pushing back quite hard on them, because it's still 19 out of 35, you know.
Julia Right.
Legality of Polygamy and Polygamy Denial
John Dehlin Well, really quickly, we have several. How are you doing on time, Julia?
Julia I have a little bit left. Yeah.
Nemo How.
John Dehlin How much?
Julia Like 15 minutes, 20 minutes.
John Dehlin Okay, I'm gonna just go through some very quick comments because there's a lot of good comments here.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin So Heather Rios Art writes, polyandry is a woman with multiple husbands, not a man marrying a woman who already has a husband. I don't totally understand the distinguish there. The. The difference there. She just says, I don't like the way everything centers the man, as if women are just passive beings. I get that. So stop saying that the women are property of the men, I think is what she's trying to say there. And that's. That's always fair. Thanks for sharing that. Jessica Van Oustel writes, I've heard polygamy deniers explain away these women's words by saying that Brigham Young must have pressured them to lie, and he had so much power over them that they did it. So Jessica is basically saying the polygamy deniers say that Brigham was the starter of polygamy against Joseph's will, and so he forced however many women who were Joseph Smith's former wives and faithful, that as a prophet, he literally just forced them to lie under oath.
Nemo I believe it, if there was any evidence of it. Sorry, Julia, gone.
John Dehlin Oh, no, that's a good point.
Julia I also want to plug in another episode that you did with RFM where he. Because people say, oh, Brigham Young made up DNC132. But RFM looks at the novel Expositor and he looks at the language there and he looks at the language of DNC132 and how they match each other, how that's. They couldn't be talking about any other document except DNC132. And because that was published in the paper that led to Joseph Smith's demise, that happened during Joseph Smith's lifetime. So I don't understand this. This idea that Brigham Young came up
Nemo with it because surely we have the original manuscript for DNC132 somewhere. Right.
Julia But it wasn't written by Joseph Smith. It wasn't. None of the revelations that we have, I'm pretty sure none of them are written in Joseph smith's handwriting.
John Dehlin Was DZ132 William Clayton's hand?
Julia I don't remember who.
John Dehlin Which Dan will tell us.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin All right. A couple others that. That are worth mentioning.
Nemo Clayton did 124 and 125. I know of the top of the.
John Dehlin Okay.
Nemo Yeah.
John Dehlin Wild notes of sage says. I think one of the worst parts is Joseph Smith threatening that he die to. To the vulnerable teenage girls that. That he. He was trying to persuade or coerce to marry and have sex with him. Threatening that he would die in. If they don't have sex with him and mar him in. Modern day, we recognize threatening suicide in relationships as extreme abuse.
Julia Well, I will say though that he is saying the angel would kill him. So it's not necessarily suicide. And Joseph Smith's rhetoric with the angel with a sword, it's murder, like. Or. I guess.
John Dehlin Yeah, but I mean.
Julia But yeah, they're both. They're. It's. Yeah, it's horrible.
Nemo Threatening that harm will come to you whether you inflict it upon yourself or whether someone else does it. To get someone to do something is coercive.
Julia Yes.
John Dehlin Yeah.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Nemo, you need to know that Lee Rogers is concerned about the feelings of the Jimmie Dodgers because Lee Rogers says the Jimmy Dodgers are feeling slighted by the Doritos. And I think that's fair. Free the Jammie Dodgers, Nemo. Free the Jammie Dodgers.
Nemo Okay. They'll be back in force next episode.
John Dehlin Knox Dia Tacita writes, menstruation has little to do with maturity in my opinion, but is a useful metric to understand when women and girls were likely to get married, as that was often a signal they were ready for marriage. Thank you for sharing that. I definitely can use all the education I can get on that stuff. Camille writes, I joined Late. But was bigamy and polygamy illegal in the United States in those days? I know this one not just considered morally reprehensible, but were there actual laws against it? Nemo, how would you know? You're a Brit.
Nemo Oh, yeah. But I just did a short on this where essentially in 1833, there is a law against bigamy in the state of Illinois. It wasn't illegal in Ohio until much later, I think something like the 70s, like, for I hire to officially like it, make it illegal. But yeah, 1833, bigamy was illegal in the state of Illinois. And I can get you a source for that if you'd like.
John Dehlin No, no, it's for sure has always been illegal in the United States from before Joseph Smith till now. It's still illegal, right?
Nemo Yeah, yeah. And. And yeah, it's now illegal just on a federal level. I. I think from my puny British understanding, I believe that supersedes state law, does it not?
John Dehlin Yeah, of course. Dan Vogel writes some research suggests that menstruation started earlier. Starts earlier now for women than it did in the 19th century. I've heard that's tied to, like, dairy, like hormones put in milk for cows and how that might spur on early menstruation nowadays.
Julia That's why you should all eat British food. British food is way better.
John Dehlin Psychopom. Y' all don't do hormones in your milk. Nemo. Funnily enough.
Julia Oh, my gosh. Going to Scotland and England, the ingredients, the American food is ridiculous.
Nemo Anyway, sorry, I. I'm not looking forward to the amount of weight that I'm probably going to put on in the next, like, couple of weeks when I'm in the States. Pray for me, everyone.
John Dehlin But while we're on that topic, Nemo, somebody asked if Nemo can do a US Tour. So they're not happy with you.
Julia Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin Doing an event in Salt lake and doing St. George Thrive. They want an entire tour.
Nemo US tour.
John Dehlin US tour. Like, it's kind of like 1964 all over again, right? It's like the British Invasion is back. Oh, dear.
Nemo Okay, well, watch this space, I guess.
John Dehlin Are you gonna come on the Ed Sullivan Show? Nemo, you probably don't get that reference. All right, Dan Vogel, we gotta share his points. Dan Vogel says polygamy deniers can't just call these women who signed affidavits liars or who wrote in their journals or whatever. Thanks to the reorganized polygamy deniers for these affidavits. So, yeah, they were trying to disprove it, but by Trying to disprove it. The RLDS church helped give us important evidence to. To, you know, to protect the. The truth, which is that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Dan Vogel says the married wives were for power over other men. That point's been made previously, but we always love Dan Vogel's blessing on any point being made. Dan Vogel also says Joseph Kingsbury's handwriting because he copied the original that was in Clayton's handwriting. Okay, so what that's saying where DNC132 came from?
Julia Kingsbury. I think. I remember that being said by Brian Buchanan on here as well.
John Dehlin And then. And then. Yeah. Dan Vogel says the original DNC32 was burned by Emma do not because she was mad or because she wanted to hide it. Which one?
Nemo Well, the polygamy diesel say because she, you know, wanted to hide it because she was in league with Brigham. I know some nonsense, but, yeah, she was mad. She probably threw it into the fire. Like this is. I do not accept this. You know, that's the image I could see in my head.
Julia Yeah.
Nemo All right, well, too bad. It's all up in here.
Julia Yeah.
John Dehlin Let's go ahead and you got a couple more slides. We're almost done.
Key Evidence That Joseph Smith Had Sexual Relations
Julia Yeah. So this. This, to me, is a really important section. I don't know how the del. I don't know if any polygamy denier has. Has addressed this topic at all. I'd be really curious if anyone knows the answer to that. So this is other evidence for sexual relations and polygamy and just. Just general Nauvoo polygamy.
John Dehlin So I agree. I agree that everyone needs to stay and listen to this final point because it's. It's kind of, for me, groundbreaking.
Julia Yeah. So. So Heber C. Kimball was married to Vilate Kimball or Villate Murray. I don't know how to say it. Violet and Villate. In November of 1822, Sarah Moon was Heber C. Kimball's first plural wife. She married Heber chase Kimball about 1842 in Nauvoo, Illinois. They had the following children. One Adelbert or Adelman. His name is interchangeable. And he was born in 1842. Second Henry Kimball, who was born in 1844, then Sarah, and then another Heber or then Heber. There is no record of Henry, the second child, going in the wagon train west. It is likely that he died before the family left for Utah. It is possible that Henry was not born until after Joseph Smith's death, but less likely that Joseph was unaware of Sarah's Pregnancy by Hebert. So this slide is saying that Heber C. Kimball entered into polygamy during Joseph Smith's life and had two children in polygamy. And again, nothing happened to Heber. He stayed an apostle. There was no. He was never punished for it. And I don't know how Joseph could have been unaware that this was happening, especially if we have stories of Joseph saying he's instructing men to take these women in polygamy. Anyway, I just. I don't know how polygamy deniers. I don't know if they've addressed the actual existing children in polygamy in Nauvoo. So, yeah, these are. This is two children. And if we keep going, there's more Nemo. Do you want to read this one?
Nemo Yep. William Clayton married Ruth Moon. Oh, the Moon family were.
Julia Yeah, yeah.
Nemo William Clayton married ruth moon on October 9, 1836. His first plural wife was Margaret Moon, Ruth's sister. According to William, it was Joseph Smith himself who arranged the marriage. Joseph said, I give you authority to send for her, and I will furnish you with means. Which he did. They were married on April 27, 1843, and from what I could find, they had six children together. Albert Clayton.
Julia Yeah.
Nemo Joseph Thomas Clayton, Lydia Arabella Clayton, James Leroy Clayton, Lavinia Tricilla Dunford, and Don Carlos Clayton.
Julia So, yeah, their first son was born February of 1844, which was months before Joseph was murdered. So. So there's a third child in polygmy that William Clayton was never punished for this. Nothing happened. Nothing. Nothing. No.
John Dehlin Just to really make this clear for anyone who's not following it, what we're saying is top Mormon church leaders who were assistants to Joseph Smith while he was alive in Nauvoo, who the Church acknowledges were faithful leaders, and that helped Joseph Smith and all he was doing, they were having polygamous. They were having sex with their polygamous wives while Joseph was alive, and they fathered children with their polygamous wives while Joseph was alive, obviously with Joseph Smith's approval, which blows away the stupid theory that Joseph was against it and Brigham Young was behind it afterwards. Unless they want to think. They want to believe that what, Heber C. Kimball and Daniel Clayton were having polygamous babies behind Joseph's back, and Joseph didn't know.
Julia Right. Joseph is a big fool. And he doesn't. He doesn't observe anything or he. This is all his approval.
John Dehlin Yeah, yeah.
Julia It doesn't make any sense.
John Dehlin And there's one more, right?
Julia There's two more.
John Dehlin Two More. Okay, keep going.
Julia So that's. So that was three children. And Joseph Bates Noble was married to Mary adeline Beaman in 1834. And then in April of 1843, he married Sarah B. Alley as his first polygamous wife. And together they had two children. And the first one was George Omner Noble, who was also born in February of 1844. And then they had Ann Noble a few years later. So again, this is another child born in polygamy. Joseph Bates Noble was. Was high up there. He married Joseph to Louisa, his third plural wife, like nothing happened to him. He was never punished. In fact, I think he was made a bishop or a stake president or something like. It doesn't make sense that for polygamy deniers. I don't understand that.
John Dehlin Okay, and then there's one more and one more.
Julia So Reynolds Calhoun married Thirza Styles or Stills, in 1810. Reynolds took Lucinda Roberts Johnson as his first polygamous wife sometime in late 1841 or early 1842. And together they had three children. And the first one is Lucinda Johnson Cahoon. And she was born in about 1843, and she died shortly after she was born. So again, this is the. There was five children born in polygamy that. From other people outside of Joseph. They were in the polygamy circle. If Joe. If they're having sex with their wives and having children, why would we think that Joseph is living a different kind of polygamy and not having sex with his wives? Especially if the purpose of polygamy is to raise up seed, as it says in the Book of Mormon, as it says in the Doctrine and Covenants. It doesn't make to deny that Joseph Smith was having sex and polygamy or living polygamy at all. Makes no sense.
Nemo Yeah, yeah, I think, I think I've written my question on the final slide. Is that. Do we have that?
John Dehlin Yeah, yeah. There's just really good comments coming in. So I don't want to give the final, final conclusion, but. Okay, here's a. Here's a. You got a summary for us, Julia?
Final Tally and Concluding Thoughts
Julia Oh, yes. So this is just like going through the ones that the. Just counting up all the maybes, the yeses and the no's. So underage brides. There was two total evidence for sexuality, only one with Helen Marr, but that's 50%. Yeah, yeah. And then the. And then the other woman that we have very little evidence for anyway, or I shouldn't say woman, girl. And then women who are already married. There was 14. So you have seven for yes. You have three maybes, seven for yes
John Dehlin sex, three maybes and four nos.
Julia Yeah, right. And then widows, it's. There's four total. And then there's two that were possible and the two that were, we have no evidence for. And then single women, there's 17 including the underage. So 12 have evidence for sex. Yes, three maybes and then two no's.
John Dehlin That's over. This is a great slide, man. What a great slide. Everybody screenshot this slide and share it far and wide. And you know, what a great work you've done, Julia. And also Nemo, with your help, put
Nemo this on Instagram, John.
John Dehlin I mean, Nemo made the. Nemo made the numbers less. He did less significant, but also maybe a tiny bit more credible.
Julia Well, like, again, like if Joseph's having sex with. With 12 of them with, with 14 of 14 women or whatever, whatever the number is, why. Why not all of them? Like, I guess. Yeah, I'm. I'm sure there are some he did not have sex with these older women. Like that makes sense. But like, I don't know. I don't think it's. It's necessary to push that. He did not have sex with any of these women. I just think that's silly.
John Dehlin And any of the polyandrus women, even that. Right, Right.
Nemo And that's a lot of them.
Julia Yes, over 50.
Nemo Right. 50% of the underage brides, 50% of the women who are already married.
John Dehlin But it's worth saying that Brian Hales and Keith Erickson and the church, they all insist that there was no sexual polyandry. Right.
Julia I don't know why. I don't know why they.
John Dehlin But. But Correct. Right. They're. They're totally in denial about this in spite of the evidence we've just presented.
Julia Right.
John Dehlin Which is total motivated reasoning, ignoring or preferring other evidence to the evidence that's staring them right in their face. Here's the, here's the summary slide. Why would Joseph Smith practice polygamy differently than Heber C. Kimball, William Clayton, Joseph Bates and Reynolds? And that's just a fantastic question. Question to ask really quickly. Let's just share a few final, final questions or comments because there's so many good ones. Dan Vogel writes, DNC132.7 gave Joseph Smith sole authority over polygamy. And the High Council could try those who practiced unauthorized polygamy. See, and that goes along with the comment that he made that only the polygamists who didn't have permission got excommunicated. And I'll ADD were derided as. As engaging in spiritual wifery. Right.
Nemo Like Bennett.
Julia And they brought men in and they excommunicated. Then we have evidence for that. And so. So, yes, Joseph is authorizing some, not authorizing others. So these five children born, he's clearly authorizing it because he's aware of. Of other polygamy. Anyway, the polygamy deniers, the sex deniers, don't make any sense. That does not match up with the evidence.
John Dehlin Gene from Latter Day Digest says, thanks, Julia, for all you do. Check out Gene's podcast. He interviews a lot of cool people. We love Gene. He's a great guy. Check out Latter Day Digest. And thanks for that comment. They love you, Gene. Loves you, Julia. How does that feel to be loved by Gene?
Julia Yeah, Gene's great.
John Dehlin Samuel Pinson writes, the answer is that polygamy deniers claims that there was a conspiracy of polygamous church leaders who murdered Joseph Smith. Yeah. So this is where we are today. Not only did Joseph Smith never practice polygamy, but there was this cabal of wanding aspiring polygamists that got together, including Brigham Young. Right. And they murdered Joseph Smith. Is that what they're saying?
Julia Yeah, there's a whole. There's a whole TV show or a movie called who. Who Murdered Joseph Smith? You can watch it for free. I've seen them combated on other Mormon or ex Mormon channels like Mormonism Live. Anyway, it's just ridiculous.
John Dehlin Yeah. Dan Vogel also says we shouldn't call it polyandry. We should call it pseudo polyandry because the women generally did not choose the husband. So that's a great point. Thanks, Dan Vogel. I love this point by Celeste Black. She writes, even if Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy, the next few prophets who famously did make it so it's still a major stain on the church. And that's a great point, Celeste Black. And that's something that. I mean, how in the world can the Mormon Church still be true if Brigham Young staged a coup and him and the next 10 or whatever prophets all practice polygamy against God's will? How in the world could the God's one true church where prophets are supposedly receiving daily revelations from Jesus? How would God and Jesus allow the next 10 or 12 prophets to all be polygamists against God's commandments, violating his law of chastity? Like nowadays, if you masturbate, you can be punished. God's going to be okay with his prophets having the, you know, effectively, you know, a coercive adultery as endowed members. And God's just going to give them all a passion. And it's God's one and only true church that's unique because it has prophets. And yet the prophets are defying God's holy law of chastity. And God doesn't strike them down or, or demote them or give them a revelation and say, cut this garbage out. Does that make any sense?
Nemo Nope.
John Dehlin Thundersnow says, fair. Free the jammies. So, Nemo, you've really upset people. Nemo, I just want to say you have really upset people by bringing Doritos to a jammies to a. To a Jammie Dodgers fight.
Nemo This, right? This is. This is the sort of off brand Jammie Dodgers I've been having to eat.
John Dehlin That's just.
Nemo That's horrific, isn't it?
John Dehlin Despicable. And then Rosemary says, Rosemary Bennett, along with many people say, thank you all for another excellent episode. Julia, you've done it again. You have. You have created an episode that I think Mike of LDS discussions would be proud of.
Julia Aw, that's high praise.
John Dehlin Celeste says, omg, I made John go on a rant. I'm so effing proud. She's so freaking. She's freaking proud.
Nemo She's freaking proud.
John Dehlin Yeah, the comments are coming in. Michelle says, very entertaining episode. Connie May says, I loved you and your team. So fantastic. New Richard Jones says, excellent show today. Let me just say thanks, Julia. Thanks, Nemo. Thanks to all the donors that make this possible. Please become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org if you want to see this stuff continue. All you got to do is become a monthly donor. 10 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. Also, please subscribe and like this channel along with Nemo the Mormon and analyzing Mormonism and what's Hinckley's channel? The something Bishop interview.
Nemo What Bishop's interview.
John Dehlin Bishop's interview. And Gene's channel, which is Ladder Daily Digest and everyone else, Zelf on the Shelf and all the other good people. Check all the good things out. Thanks for supporting us, Maven, in the comments. Gerardo. You know, Brooklyn, everyone at the Open Storage foundation, the board and all the commenters. Aren't the commenters great?
Julia Yeah. This has been fun. I'm glad we did this on live.
John Dehlin Yeah. And we had almost a thousand people pretty much for most of the episode, so that's super fun.
Julia And I imagine we'll have more viewers because I feel like this is a hot topic or whatever.
John Dehlin And this is just part one. We're going to do a part two where we literally respond to Brian Hales and all the garbage that Mormon apologists, We're going to respond to them directly.
Nemo Who knows, I might even be in studio for that one.
John Dehlin Yeah, Nemo's coming. We may open up Nemo's event if we can find a bigger venue. Right now it seats 100. If we can find a bigger venue, we'll try and open up Nemo's event that may feature Samantha Shelley as well to more people. If you all want to hang out with Nemo here in early March in Salt Lake City when Nemo's here, that's going to be really fun to have you again. Julia, any final comments?
Julia No. I don't understand the people that deny Joseph Smith living polygamy. These are. And again, like we've talked about this before, these are actual women who actually went through all of this. And this would have been really, really hard on every one of them. The books like Todd Compton, where he goes through each wife and he goes through their whole life and he goes through the heartbreak that they go through, all these, the feelings of terror and like, these are just real women with real experiences. And I encourage you guys all to look at their stories specifically. This is just a very watered down. We're just looking at the evidence. But these women have very important stories for themselves.
John Dehlin Check out Todd Compton's In Sacred Loneliness. Check out Dan Vogel's channel on Mormon truth claims. Subscribe to that as well. And even the Cultural hall or cult, he did a fun parody song about Joseph Smith called Story of a Guy that mentions a lot of stats about Josephus Polygamy. Culture's work is not just brilliant, it's also fun and humorous. So subscribe to the Cultural hall while you're checking out all this other stuff as well. All right. Thanks, Nemo. Thanks, Julia. LDS Discussions lives on. Remember everyone that you can check out LDS Discussions as its own podcast on Spotify on Apple Podcasts. You can view it as video on Spotify because now Spotify allows video. And you can also check it out on the LDS discussions playlist on YouTube. You can watch it from start to finish and we recommend that you do. That's it. Thanks for the show. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We love you. Donate, support us, subscribe and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Please click click the like button. Thanks, everybody. Take care.
Nemo We see you, Tim.
John Dehlin See everyone.
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