The History of Tithing – LDS Discussions

Introduction and Episode Overview

Kolby Reddish 0:00 Good morning everyone and thank you for joining us on today's episode of Mormon Stories podcast, LDS Discussions Edition. I'll be your host or one of your hosts for today. Kolby Redish and I just have a few quick notes on the LDS discussion series before we get going on today's episode regarding the history of tithing. Our first note is that the LDS discussion series is an effort to best examine Mormon Church truth claims based on the available evidence and to approach those claims as objectively and fairly as we can. This series was created by Mike of the website LDS Discussions, who has since retired from this project, but we're incredibly grateful for his work starting it and building the foundations for the series. There are dozens of episodes in the LDS discussion series and you can find the full series on a playlist on YouTube as well as on Spotify and Apple podcasts as standalone podcasts. I say that because these episodes largely build upon one another. So if you're new to this series, we strongly recommend going back after you finish this episode. Going back and starting at the beginning to work through them in order. John DeLand feels that the LDS discussion series is one of the most important things that the Mormon Stories podcast has ever done. I very much agree with him and I'm grateful to everyone who supported this series and helps us continue it. Thank you for supporting if you are folks that have supported this project in the past. With that introduction, I will go ahead and introduce the rest of our panel for today's episode. I'm joined to my left, well to my far left by Julia Sanders from Analyzing Mormonism. Good morning, Julia.

Julia 1:32 Good morning, Kolby.

Kolby Reddish 1:34 Do you want to introduce your platform or any other introductory comments for today?

Julia 1:39 Yeah, I do analyze Mormonism on all the platforms. I mostly look at the history of the Mormon Church and some of the current events like the talk that was given recently by Elder Corbridge that was really interesting. But yeah, so just. And then I'm. Then I'm part of this LDS discussion series and Spike has retired and this has been really fun. So yeah, great.

Kolby Reddish 2:01 I'm also joined by Nima the Mormon.

Nemo 2:04 Hello, good morning, Good evening. Good evening. As it is here in the uk. Welcome everyone to a multi time zone LDS discussions episode. Yeah, happy to be here. You can find me on every social media platform as Nemo the Mormon, apart from MySpace as we have well established in this series by now.

Kolby Reddish 2:28 Great. Well, today we're going to talk about the history of tithing, both biblically and then the LDS Church's history of how it's treated Tithing. Julia, you put the slides together for today. So tell us what we're in store for.

Julia 2:42 Yeah. So our last episode was on the SEC scandal. And so I felt like this is an appropriate way to talk about this because there was. That had a lot to do with the tithing because the church had been making shell companies and hiding their amount of money they have. And so I just thought it'd be really interesting. And a couple of years ago, I learned more about the history of tithing that I did not know. That really kind of surprised me. Although things shouldn't surprise me, they should stop. I feel like things should stop surprising me, but they still surprise me. Anyway, so there's a good chunk that I want to talk about there. And then how the, like how the history of tidings started back in 1838, I think, and then how tithing has unfolded since then. So, yeah, great.

Kolby Reddish 3:20 Yeah, I've never done a deep dive on this topic, so I'm super excited to do it with you.

Julia 3:24 Yeah, I find all this very interesting. So, like, we have a lot of information here, but I think it's really important. So, yeah, great.

Tithing in the Old Testament

Kolby Reddish 3:31 Let's go ahead and start.

Julia 3:33 Okay, so here's the history of tithing that they don't teach, because I was never taught this. I was a gospel doctrine teacher, served a mission, graduated from byu, Idaho, did no idea about this stuff. So the first thing that I wanted to cover is, like you said, biblically, like, talking about tithing. So I want to talk about tithing in the Old Testament. And so we go to Genesis 14 verses 18 through 20, where they talk about tithing.

Kolby Reddish 3:57 And it looks like this is the story in Genesis where Abraham or Abraham at the time, pays tithes of his spoils of wars to Melchizedek. Is that right, Julia?

Julia 4:07 Yes, exactly. And so I think. And I also think that he's only doing this because he's the priest. But also I also want to point out that this is just. This just happens the one time as far as this, this recollection of Genesis. And this is they have this war, they get all these spoils, and then he. They give them. They give a tenth of those to Melchizedek because he's the priest. And so it's not. So even then, it wasn't even all of. All of Abram's, what he had accumulated. It's not. It's not a tenth of his interest annually. It's just this instance where they have all these spoils from war, and he then gives them over to Melchizedek spoils

Nemo 4:41 which include, by the looks of it, goods and women and other people. And so make of that what you

Julia 4:51 will in verse 16. Yeah, and his goods and the women also. And the people.

Nemo 4:56 That idea of giving people as tithing may turn back up in this episode.

Julia 5:00 Who's to say? Perhaps. Okay, so another One is Leviticus 27, verses 30 through 34, where he says, in all the tithes of the land, whether seed of the land or fruit of the tree, it is the Lord's and it's holy to the Lord. And so. Or that they tie their. Their herds or their flocks, and so that. So tithing back then was paid. I guess the way that the. The. The Mormons in the 1800s viewed it was tithing and kind. So it's not monetary, even though money did exist back then and as existed in Joseph Smith's time. But that's not how they paid it. They paid it through these other means.

Nemo 5:33 I think, to be fair, money was much more closely connected to the things with which you purchased money. It was very much seen as more a substitute token for things that you would buy. Whereas it seems to have more of its own sort of inherent value now in modern monetary systems, particularly after it stopped being backed by gold in many countries, once you took it off a standard related to any sort of finite precious material, money has very much changed over the years.

Julia 6:02 Yeah. And then you have Deuteronomy 14, verses 21 through 23, where it talks about tithing. All the increase of thy seed in the fields bringeth forth year by year. So again, this is a. It is a year by year thing here and there. It talks about corn, wine, oil, herds, flocks, and so they give that tenth to the Lord, essentially.

Kolby Reddish 6:23 One of the things that's interesting about this first verse, Julia, is you can see it's not directly connected necessarily to the tithing like payment itself, but verse 21 talks about how you shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself. Thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it, or thou mayest sell it unto an alien. So it's interesting to me that these things that die of their own accord, basically of old age or I guess, of disease, that those are supposed to be specifically reserved for basically for the needy, for the people that would need to eat in that circumstance. So not necessarily directly connected to the tithing, but you can see kind of the purpose is connected.

Julia 7:05 Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the fast offering which we'll Talk about later where in the church you pay two different things to the church. You pay the tithing, which is a tenth of your increase annually or fast offering, which to help. I think it's only specifically for charity use for. I don't know how it works in the ward level, but I think I thought it stayed in the. In the ward or stake. And then it helped those. Okay, yeah. So helping those like people pay rent or their bills or buy groceries or things like that is my understanding. So. So I guess I can. I'm kind of seeing that in there. But that's not at all how they would have viewed that. But.

Kolby Reddish 7:39 Right.

Julia 7:39 But yeah. Anyway. And then the most famous One is Malachi 3, verses 8 through 11. I think this is a scripture mastery. Will a man rob God? Pretty sure, but maybe it's not. I can't remember.

Nemo 7:52 It's certainly a well known scripture.

Julia 7:54 Right. And so this one will come back because I have quotes from Dan McClellan and David Bachavoy where they talk about this specifically. So verse 10 says, Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house. And prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And they talk specifically about how that would mean rain, where you give this so that you can have rain, which would then give you more. More of your crops or more whatever.

Nemo 8:27 So yeah, that's not enough room to receive it, you know. Yeah, fields can overflow.

Julia 8:33 So that's that on the. The Old Testament. So now moving to the New Testament, this is Matthew 23:23, where they say that you pay tithes of your mint and anise and cumin. And I think anise and cumin, you know, these are mint. These are all herbs, which is very different even from going from that to like your. I don't know, it just was. It's a different thing to me because it's not necessarily your cattle or your. Their seed of the field. These are specific. And I'm not sure what the shift is. I don't, I don't really know. I'm not a Bible scholar, so.

Tithing in the New Testament and Malachi

Kolby Reddish 9:06 Well, I. So this is Jesus, you know, reportedly speaking to the scribes and Pharisees. And I think the thing that's interesting is the back half of the sentence that kind of explains why we. It. Right. And you have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith. These ye ought ye to have done and not to have the other undone. So he's saying there are some things which are more important. And the literal example that Jesus is giving, at least in this passage, is that tithing is of the. The lesser important laws compared to, you know, judgment, mercy, and faith. So he's emphasizing that over tithing, which is very interesting. Then when we get to how the LDS Church has prioritized and preferenced tithing as a commandment even for the destitute, as Elder Lynn G. Robbins taught, or

Julia 9:54 also made me think of how tithing is required to go to the temple. But fast offering is not where he says weightier matters of law, judgment, and mercy, I don't know. Or in faith, I don't know if mercy would fall under charitable giving, I don't know. But yeah, he is saying that tithing is less important than those other things. And so I'm glad you pointed that out.

Nemo 10:13 And mint and anise and cumin, they're spices, herbs, precious things that it would be reasonable to tithe at the time.

Julia 10:22 Right. And like you said, that monetary value of those things would be high.

Nemo 10:25 Yeah.

Julia 10:26 And then there's another one in Luke, it's kind of the same reiteration. So Luke 11:42, tithe of mint and rue and herbs and pass over judgment, the love of God that you ought to have done. So he's kind of saying the same thing and not leave the other undone.

Nemo 10:44 So that not leave the other undone, I think is also important for fairness to apologists who will come out. He's saying, no, you still need to do that other thing, but you've neglected the more important things than that. And I think the point here is that they. I had a bishop who once said to me, tithing is great because it's the only commandment you can ever be perfect at. It's numerical, it's mathematical. And I think what Jesus message to the Pharisees here is you're very good at doing the dotting of the T's and crossing the I's, but you're missing the broader point of how you're meant to behave. It's in that theme of Christ doing that sort of fulfilling of the law of Moses and bringing about a higher law.

Julia 11:33 Yeah, right. Yeah. And there's another reference in Luke 18:12, and the Pharisees stood and prayed. And he says, I fast twice in a week. I give tithes of all that I possess. And here that was the he's kind of bragging. And then the I think the Lord is saying, you Know, do. Do it in your closets or. Or what? I can't remember exactly what he's saying here, but like, do it in secret rather than boasting about it.

Kolby Reddish 11:56 Yeah, one, one passage where he talks about that is like, when you give your alms, I think this is in the mount. Do it so that your left hand know not what your right hand do it. Right, so.

Julia 12:07 Right.

Kolby Reddish 12:08 Yes. If you're doing it simply to boast about it, then you're not doing it for the right reason, I think is the really consistent message that comes through Jesus's ministry when it comes to giving.

Julia 12:18 Yeah.

Nemo 12:18 And so you could argue in some ways that might be why later on down in the timeline, the church hides the size of their wealth because, you know, they don't want to boast about it. They don't want to boast about how well they're doing keeping the law of tithing. Of course not.

Julia 12:35 There's another One in Hebrews 7:2 through nine, it says Abraham gave the tenth of his spoils. And this is like a reiteration of Genesis that we talked about earlier. And verily, they are the sons of Levi. Or maybe not, because this is different, but maybe not. Hang on. So the sons of Levi who received the office of the priesthood had the commandment to take ties of people according to the law. Because I'm. I don't know, the timeline of Abraham and Levi is throwing me off, but yeah. So a tenth of their spoils like we talked about. Yeah. And then.

Nemo 13:09 Yeah, I think that that's. Yeah, that's important. Saying that this is how it works. They go through those who have the office of priesthood according to law. They, from their brethren, they take those tents. But clearly there of the spoils. Right. So that is some form of increase, some form of. Yeah, something beyond what they make day to day. That's what that would indicate to me.

Julia 13:36 Yeah. Okay, so I have these next. These are clips from David Bockavoy and then Dan McClellan. They were interviewed on Mormon stories. This one's a little bit long because, like, he. He wants to talk about other things in the middle of it. So I'll try to play the whole thing because I. Because everything that he says is important for David Bockavoy, but it's just a couple of minutes.

Kolby Reddish 13:56 I've read that scholars don't read the Malachi tithing verses like Mormons. What's the scholarly take on Malachi and tithing?

Guest 14:05 Okay, so, yeah, there are lots of differences on that. One of the interesting things I Think the most interesting thing to point upon that is this idea that God will open up the window of heaven and pour down a blessing upon his community if they tithe and do this. Well, that whole idea is actually. You can see it reflected in the flood narrative. How did God, in one of the flood narratives, flood the earth? Well, he opens up the windows of heaven. And the idea behind this, you can see in Genesis chapter one, the firmament, which is the way it's translated in the King James translation of the Bible. The firmament is really just a plastic dome. That is the best way to describe it. That's keeping the water up above from falling down on top of us. I used to do this, John all the time in San Diego. I would lie on the beach and there wouldn't be a cloud in the sky or whatever, just a blue. And I'd look up and like, man, it's like water. And I would even have this imagination, this image of, like, oh, if you flipped it over and there was no gravity, I would fall into the sky, which we like falling into the water. Ancient people looked at the world that way too. And it made sense to them that there was water up there because water comes down. So God must open up a window and allow for the water to pour down and flood the earth, or to provide crops, in this case, with Malachi, as it might be. And it's based upon an ancient view of the cosmos which we know today not is not correct. There's not a firmament up there. It also connects ultimately with Genesis chapter one and explains why animals are created on certain days. So if you think about the order of creation in Genesis chapter one, it's really fun. On the first day, God creates the lights. Then three days later, on day four, he creates the things that pertain to that sphere. So he creates the sun, the moon, the stars. Day two, he divides the waters from above, the water versus the waters below by putting in that firmament, that plastic dome. And then three days later, on day five, he creates the things that pertain to that sphere. Fish and birds. And people wonder why birds? Well, because they think there's water up above. And like Malachi, you'll open up a window and pour down that water if you pay your tithes. And then on day three, creates the land. And then on day six, three days later, he creates the humans and the animals. So it's. It shows that there's structure, that God has a plan in mind, that everything is orderly, which is very different than what we see. The God, the portrayal of God in Genesis chapter two, when he just figured, oh, let's create animals, let's create one on. So every one of these texts, including the. The one on Malachi and the pain of tithes and what that meant, have a different meaning when looked at historically and critically, contextually, versus the way that Latter Day Saints use that material today. That's just every text. Every text,

Julia 17:15 yeah. I really admire David Bogboy. Did you guys have any thoughts or anything to add to that?

Nemo 17:24 No, just that I think he talks about how the last day saint viewing is different. And just to clear up what that last day saint viewing might be, it is this transactional idea that God will pour out blessings, often fiscal blessings, often sort of prosperity style blessings on people who faithfully pay their tithing. It's where prosperity gospel leaks into Mormonism quite strongly, is the payment of tithes. The idea that you are essentially, it's. Well, it's been called fire insurance in the past. It's quite a transactional view in the LDS Church. Pay your tithing, you get X, Y and Z. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julia 18:06 So the union won't be burned at the last day is something that. Yeah. Is the reason why it's called fire insurance.

Nemo 18:11 Indeed. And so David Buckavoy is saying that there's a different and more accurate historical reading of that verse, which was. It was about water, which would help nourish crops. Contributions from those crops would then be given as tithes, etc. Sorry, Kolby.

Kolby Reddish 18:28 I also think the verse in Malachi, it's interesting the way it's been used kind of is this implicit threat towards people to pay their tithing. Right. Because you don't want to not receive a blessing that you won't even have room enough to receive.

Julia 18:43 But will a man rob God?

Nemo 18:44 You want to rob God and will

Kolby Reddish 18:46 a man rob God? Right. Okay. It's not even really an implicit threat. It's more an explicit threat. But one of the things that's interesting that I think is often lost in the Latter Day Saint interpretation of that verse is it's about the storehouses. This comes back to when we were talking about the Old Testament roots of this. It's about. At least my understanding is it's about caring for the needy in that area. That's what that storehouse existed to do. And again, the Old Testament really has this completely different model of land and people together. Right. That they are these two different halves of what makes Israel. And it's just interesting the way that it's been used to basically by modern Mormonism to say you're robbing God if you're not paying your tithing, when tithing doesn't even go to that purpose anymore, except maybe in some rare circumstances. But the original. The original reading of that Malachi verse, at least as far as I understand it, is it's about caring for the people that need the meat in those storehouses. And it's kind of been flipped into this completely different interpretation by Mormonism, applying that verse the way that it has.

Julia 19:56 Yeah. And I have. I just want to say I've also sprinkled in general conference talks throughout this episode, and one of them is Elder Holland, where he says that tithing is paying a debt.

Kolby Reddish 20:06 So.

Julia 20:07 Yeah.

Nemo 20:08 Now, some of the people that benefit from the things within the storehouse are the priests, are those who administer the church that has some biblical precedent as well, that they do receive some sort of support from that, because there is. So here's what I would say on that. There is benefit in people being able to fully focus on ministry.

Guest 20:32 Right.

Nemo 20:32 On being the priest in the community. We see that in a lot of religious traditions, and there's value in that. What I think the problem with the way Mormonism does that modernly is that those people are not trained in any way, pastorally or theologically. They come from business management backgrounds. Essentially, what they're getting is a stipend to be a business manager rather than a stipend to be a religious leader in the way it would be understood in the Old Testament.

Kolby Reddish 21:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's a really good point. Some of them are also lawyers, though, so.

Nemo 21:05 Oh, yeah, yeah. And we know how we feel about those on this show.

Kolby Reddish 21:09 Yeah.

Julia 21:11 So this next one is a clip from Dan McClellan. He's going to say it on his Mormon Stories episode.

Kolby Reddish 21:17 What? All right, let's see it.

Nemo 21:18 Thank you, Kolby. Let's go.

Kolby Reddish 21:21 What about Malachi telling us all to pay tithing? That's a very different. Very different concept of tithing back then, because that would have been. Actually, it was a little more closely related to how tithing was paid in the early church, where this was about grains and animals and things like that, not about actual money, which existed back then. But the point is more about the opening the windows of heaven is about making it rain. It's about providing for crops. And this is what the promise is. You bring the first fruits of your offerings and God will make it rain so that your crop will grow, which we then kind of render abstract or a little more generic to apply it

Nemo 22:13 to

Kolby Reddish 22:15 late stage capitalist concerns. So in your mind, Malachi wasn't saying give 10% of your gross or net income to the church you attend. It's. That's a renegotiation for sure. And the message from Malachi was, was quite different. But also when you situate the whole book of Malach, it's in, in its historical setting, it's responding to very, very different concerns. And so it is something that to make it relevant to us today really has to be proof, text, proof texted, because it's really about different, much different concerns.

Julia 22:54 Yeah, yeah.

Nemo 22:55 I mean, I would, I would say what he's just described there is something that's very common in human behavior for thousands of years. The idea that you make a sacrifice to a God in order to have a successful harvest. Right. That's like, that's nothing new. That's nothing unique to Christianity even. That's a pretty common human behavior. And so part of me wonders, in similar ways to the ways in which the church has tried to move away from Joseph Smith's more occult leanings in the past, whether renegotiating this, as Dan McClellan put it, is a way of specifying it out of this try and appease the angry God narrative that would be understood from the Old Testament. And more like a no, we're in a two way negotiation with a God that we don't want to rob, we want to pay what we owe him, we want to discharge this debt so that he can then bless us. Is a much more Mormon way of thinking about it than appease the angry God so that he makes it rain.

Julia 23:48 Right? Yeah. Okay, so the next part that I have is tithing in the Book of Mormon. So in Alma 13, verse 15, it says, and it was the same Melchizedek. And mostly these are all just biblical references that we've already gone over. And it was the same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes, that even our father Abraham paid tithes of one tenth of all he possessed, which we did not see. He paid tithes of his spoils of war. Was that what you were going to say?

Tithing in the Book of Mormon

Nemo 24:16 Yeah, yeah, I was going to say. That's incorrect. He didn't pay tithes of one tenth of all he possessed. He paid tithes of one tenth of all he stole in that one war that one time.

Julia 24:24 Yeah, yeah. And then in third Nephi verse, chapter 24, verses 8 through 10, it's a reiteration of Malachi 3. Will a mamma, Will a man rob God bring you all the ties in the storehouse in the Same language that we already read and that's it. So like that. That also checks out to me with Joseph.

Kolby Reddish 24:41 The thing that's. Sorry, can I pause you on this one? The thing that's so interesting about this one to me is as we think about that context of Malachi 3 and we hear Dan McClellan say, well, to apply it the way that Mormons have always applied it requires this renegotiation. This verse makes. These verses make no sense here because there was no tribe of Levi that was dedicated to working in the temple in the Nephite culture. There just wasn't. We. We learn a little bit about the Nephite. The existence of Nephite temples are recorded in the Book of Mormon, but we don't really get any specifics like we do in the Old Testament about what those pract looked like. But there's no mention of like a priestly class that's completely dedicated to that. In fact, one of the one such prophet is King Benjamin who makes a big focus of his ministry. I have labored right alongside you, shoulder to shoulder, providing for my own sustenance my entire life and have not put that burden upon you. So it's interesting that the entire reason that this verse is in Malachi is about bringing the tithes into the storehouses

Guest 25:52 to

Kolby Reddish 25:55 basically to provide that sustenance for the people that are working in the temple. Which wouldn't even apply here. Right. This is what happens when you have these verses being yanked out of their context and re applied in a completely different one.

Julia 26:08 Thank you. That is a really good comment. And this reminds me of, I think Sandra Tanner several times in Mormon stories has said that there is so little of the law of Moses in the Book of Mormon. Even though it references like oh, we've lived the law of Moses. But the specific details of it, as far as I can recall, or what she has said are almost non existent. The specifics in the Book of Mormon. Yeah, it's almost one of those things, right?

Kolby Reddish 26:30 It's. It's all implicit and it's completely different than like. And the, the quintessential example I can give you is when Jesus is crucified. The. There's accounts in the Gospel accounts, there's recognition of needing to get his burial done because of Passover, because of the Sabbath. Right. Because they weren't able to work in certain ways. So you have the law of Moses's commands basically featuring into the narratives. As far as I know, that never happens one single time in the Book of Mormon. Instead the law of Moses is talked about, but not really present in the text in the way that we would expect if, if the Book of Mormon is what it purports to be, the record of ancient Hebrews that are keeping the law of Moses. We don't see anything about their raiment necessarily that like, would only be explained by them looking at following the law of Moses, their observation of Passover.

Nemo 27:25 Right.

Kolby Reddish 27:26 It's all implicit. So, you know, when, when some apologists want to point to, like, well, if we really squint, we can see this interesting coronation festival that's implicit in the text. It's like, why are all the, the parallels to the law of Moses implicit rather than explicit? They should be very explicit because, you know, Nephi says that his people are keeping the law of Moses because it was the commandment. So.

Julia 27:50 Yeah, it just seems like what I was going to say earlier is this, this Joseph Smith used the. The Old Testament, New Testament to help create the Book of Mormon. And this is just his two tithing references are straight from the Bible. You've got Genesis here and you've got Malachi 3. And then. And then Joseph Smith doesn't seem to have a very good grasp of. Of the law of Moses and how that would look being lived, like lived day to day. And that's why they're.

Nemo 28:15 Is it more fascinating when you consider that the opening tale of the Book of Mormon is that Nephi has to go back and get brass plates, which we've discussed in another episode, are anachronistic in and of themselves, but he has to go back and get them so that they have the writings of the first five books of the Bible which contain the law of Moses so that they can all live the law of Moses. So he's gone to all this effort to preserve these words so that his people can live by this law, and then never talks about living the law ever.

Julia 28:44 Yeah.

Nemo 28:45 What was the law?

Kolby Reddish 28:46 Yeah, they do. To be fair, they do talk about living the law, but they don't. There's no like. Exactly. There's no specifics. It's like. It's like how, you know, how in some stories you've got characters that are big feature of the story, but really only a name. They're not really a character that features in the story. Like, I'm thinking of the example of like Game of Thrones Die, you know, begins with someone's death. That character isn't really a character, they're a precipitating event. Basically. The law of Moses is the same in the Book of Mormon. It's something that the author of the Book of Mormon knows that they need to talk about, but it's not really reflected in, in the narrative in a way that's believable in the sense that, oh, this is the story of people who are actually living these commandments.

Julia 29:31 Right? Yeah. Okay, so this next part is not just tithing in the Book of Mormon, but there's this idea of priestcraft in the Book of Mormon which I want to talk about, because that plays in as we're talking about when tithing was implemented in 1838. So this is first Nephi 2223. Nemo, do you want to read this?

Book of Mormon Warnings Against Priestcraft

Nemo 29:49 Yes. For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity, yea, in fine. All those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear and tremble and quake. They are those who must be brought low in the dust, and they are those who must be consumed as stubble. And this according to the words of the prophet Kolby. Why are you laughing?

Kolby Reddish 30:27 Well, the true answer to your question is because I was wondering how big a fan John is going to be of me mentioning Game of Thrones on Mormon stories. But then I saw the phrase churches which are built up to get gain. And in light of the episode we did a few weeks ago where we talked about the SEC disclosure, I was chuckling at the irony. It is funny how often the Book of Mormon's condemnation of priestcraft, of costly apparel, of fine linens, of basically the material things of the world often excoriates the contemporary LDS church. So that is partially what I was chuckling at, but also my inappropriate reference.

Julia 31:09 Yes, yeah, that's what I was thinking as you were listening. Them Nemo churches built up to get gain, which is the Mormon Church is the most wealthy church, at least in the United States, if not the whole world, and then built up to get power over the flesh. I would, I would categorize the church under that built up to become popular. The church is making changes. As recently as just yesterday they were talking about. Or well, when we were recording this, one of the latest news Mormon news ones is they're changing the chapels so that the. So there's like two rows and then the sacrament table is right in the Middle which is very mainstream Christian. And so like it seems like or like them changing, coming kind of coming back to the Christus symbol or not Christus, the cross.

Nemo 31:50 What are the crosses on Google Maps?

Julia 31:52 Yes, crosses on Google Maps. Yeah. And then so like crucifix.

Nemo 31:56 Because the crucifix has to have Christ on it as well across.

Julia 32:00 Right. Okay.

Kolby Reddish 32:01 How about all the advertising too? I mean when I'm. If I'm on non YouTube Premium, my non YouTube Premium account and I'm on anything ex Mormon or Mormon related, I get average. I get Book of Mormon advertisements literally every single time which is just a very. I mean I also understand like that is the modern way that we spread messages. But it's interesting to me that it's all being spread with money. Right. There was also a story in Bloomberg about how the church is paying influencers to spread the LDS Church's message. So yes, there's a lot of I think contemporary practices that would shock the author of the Book of Mormon that the LDS Church engages in.

Nemo 32:43 I think we fortunately can say that I do not believe down in jokes is seeking after the lusts of the flesh. I don't think that's happening. So you know, score one to the church there.

Julia 32:56 Well then do all manner of iniquity. I don't know if I'd categorize the church under there. Although I do think that the church is abuse cover ups are. Are very horrendous. But yeah, yeah.

Nemo 33:09 Anyway, but then, sorry. It says those who belong to the kingdom of the devil and if you would to. If you were to listen to Peter Bleakley, he I believe in part was excommunicated for calling the leaders of the church Satanists because his argument was that because they lie, Satan is the father of all lies and because they hide wealth, that's the sort of thing Satan would do. So he called them liars and Satanists. And I think that's why he got excommunicated. Could have something to do with it.

Kolby Reddish 33:37 Yeah, they don't like that generally he

Nemo 33:39 would argue they belong to the kingdom of the devil. I guess it's my point.

Julia 33:43 Yeah. Okay, so there's another one in second Nephi. This is chapter 10, verse 5. But because of priestcraft and iniquity they at Jerusalem will stiffen their necks against him that he be crucified. Talking about the those who crucify Christ. So because of priestcraft and iniquity that led them to killing Jesus. So it's so bad.

Kolby Reddish 34:02 But is that even? Is that even. I mean I Understand, the Book of Mormon is repeatedly condemning priest craft, but I don't even know. We could say that verse is correct. Like, is priestcraft really the reason that the folks in Jerusalem crucified Jesus? I don't. I don't believe so.

Julia 34:20 I don't.

Nemo 34:21 The popular uprising. He seemed like he was fermenting.

Julia 34:24 Yeah, well, Jesus was speaking truth to power. You know, he was. I. I don't. I don't know if priestcraft plays into that at all. Like, it doesn't seem to, but I don't know.

Kolby Reddish 34:34 I mean, I guess you could make the argument because of the cleansing of the temple once or twice, depending on which gospel accounts you're going to preference, right?

Nemo 34:43 Yeah.

Julia 34:43 Yeah, yeah. So there's another one in second Nephi 26:29. He commanded that there shall be no priestcrafts. For behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world, but they seek not the welfare of Zion. So again, a condemnation of priestcraft and

Nemo 35:06 the definition of priestcraft there for us.

Julia 35:07 Yeah, and the definition of it. Yeah, you're right.

Kolby Reddish 35:09 Yeah. To me, it's very interesting to see. So it defines priestcraft here as men that preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world. It makes me that they may get gain in praise of the world. It makes me wonder how these verses would apply to modern LDS podcasters that seem to really be building themselves up into something, putting on events that are, I don't want to say competing with, but I guess tangential to the church, not officially sponsored by the church. It's just been something that's very interesting to me, like seeing the prevalence of those communities and how big some of the following have gotten. Like, wow, I wonder how long the church is going to allow this to go on before it rains some of this stuff in. Maybe they don't care as long as they're on the right team. I don't know.

Julia 35:56 Right.

Nemo 35:57 I think there's a bit of that. It's like, as long as it keeps people in the church, I don't think they really mind. The thing that sticks out from this verse to me is it's almost this implication that you can set yourself up for light into the world and you can get gain and praise of the world, but you have to be seeking after the welfare of Zion, because it's saying, these are men that do these things, but they don't seek the welfare of Zion. So there's a way of looking at that to say, like you can do that, that's fine as long as you're seeking the welfare of Zion. I would argue the condemnation of the church here is that they aren't seeking the welfare of Zion nearly as much as they could be. And so I think the way they set themselves up for a light into the world, hashtag light the world initiative, and the way that they try and get gain and praise of the world isn't always or very rarely is focused on truly the welfare of Zion.

Julia 36:48 Yeah, yeah. Okay, so there's another one in Alma. This is one, chapter one, verse 12. But Alma said unto him, behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. Is this with Korihor?

Kolby Reddish 37:03 No, Korihor would be later.

Julia 37:06 Who's the Nihor, maybe Nihor. Okay, so this, so yeah, this antagonist.

Kolby Reddish 37:11 By the way, this isn't even true because Sherem was also doing priestcraft in I think, book of Jacob. So whoops.

Julia 37:19 Well, that was written, you know, you know, Joseph wrote that at the very end because of the last 116 pages anyway. But so priestcraft has. This is the first time priestcraft has been introduced among these people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcrafts, but has endeavored to enforce it by the sword because he had killed Gideon, I guess. And where were priestcraft to be enforced among these people, it would prove their entire destruction. So again, this is, he's like, this is so bad. That's why we captured you. You're trying to enforce it by the sword. This is, this is wrong. So like, it would prove that entire destruction of the people of the Nephites. And they have 30 Nephi, 1610. Kolby, do you want to read this one?

Kolby Reddish 37:54 I do. And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you at the day when the Gentile shall shall sin against my gospel and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and of all manner of hypocrisy and murders, and priest crafts and whoredoms, and of secret abominations. And if they do all those things and shall reject the fullness of my gospel. Behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fullness of my gospel from among them.

Nemo 38:28 Yeah, but you could see the argument that actually when was, you know, when was the last time there was any meaningful revelation? When was the Last time the prophecies and the revelations actually did anything. Could it be that, you know, there's arguments to be made by those who want to make offshoot groups and just those who want to read the scripture this way, that the church is in apostasy and so the gospel's been taken away, the fullness is gone. And that's why you've got this managerial steadying the ship and just keeping everything taking over type leaders, because they've lost that. So you could make that argument.

Julia 38:59 That's true, that's true. So there's another one, and this is Mormon 8, verses 32 through 41. He says, Yea, and it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say come unto me, and for your money we shall you, you shall be forgiven of your sins. And I'm pretty sure that the Book of Mormon is very against. Against Catholicism.

Nemo 39:19 Yeah.

Julia 39:19 And I think that's exactly what this is pointing to.

Nemo 39:21 That's a straight up condemnation of indulgences, right? Yeah.

Julia 39:25 And then he talks about churches being built up to get gain. And then like at the very bottom in verse 36, it talks about the fine apparel and the. He talks about envyings and stripes and persecutions, malice iniquities, polluted because of the pride of your heart. So, so it's a condemnation again of, of it doesn't say the word prescribed, but it's built up to get gain is what they were talking about.

Kolby Reddish 39:45 So can I make a comment on verse 36? It's interesting that it says in your churches, yay, even everyone have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts. So it's interesting that while the church and some apologists try and pivot and be a little bit more ecumenical, which I do agree is a good thing to try and find common cause with other people, do these bridge building conversations. It's interesting that the author of the Book of Mormon as well as Joseph Smith, when he's attributing the words to Christ in his first vision account, recognizes every church is apostate, that all of these churches have gone away. And it's interesting to see the pivot on that in recent years where it's a lot softer, it's a lot more like, well, they've got a lot of truth too. Not according to the author of the Book of Mormon or to, you know, Joseph Smith's 1838 account of the first vision.

Nemo 40:40 And that's shifting because in the last, I think we're seeing this with the shift of the presidency of Oaks. Because in the last few weeks, Oakes came out and gave an address in which he talked about the one true church. And he talked about what does it mean to the church to be true. Now, it was at the Mission Leaders Conference, and it was a rehash of one he gave at the Mission Leaders Conference a number of years ago. He basically copied his own talk and gave it again. But still, that shows that this message hasn't entirely disappeared.

Julia 41:06 Yeah.

Nemo 41:07 And it'll be interesting to see how the church talks out of both sides of its mouth a little bit with this. Trying to maintain its primacy as the one true and living church, but also trying to play well with others.

Julia 41:19 Yeah, this reminds me of. I Eventually I want to do an episode on the history of the. The temple endowment or the temple. All the temple aspects and how they used to have. Now they have. They have Satan, who is like, who. Who is the only bad guy, because it's a. It's a retelling of. Of the creation story with Adam and Eve, But Satan's the only bad guy. Whereas previously it was all these different priests from different religions. And they would say, I'm a Baptist preacher or I'm a Catholic preacher or whatever. And they would. They would then try to entice Adam and Eve to listen to them. And then it. And then it decreased and changed. One preacher and then. And then it changed to just. Just being Satan. So again, the church, in that way is even trying to, like, soften their perspective on the other religions.

Nemo 42:01 If I'm not mistaken. It also the line false priests who oppress used to be something like false popes who oppress. And that got changed also.

Julia 42:11 Yeah, but it just made me think of that. But okay, so this is the rest of that. I didn't realize that there was more. But yeah, so the adorning your churches more than you love your more. Okay, so for behold that you do love money and your substance and your fine apparel and the adorning of your churches more than you love the poor and the needy and the sick and the affliction.

Nemo 42:31 Can we pause there?

Julia 42:32 Sure. That.

Nemo 42:33 On 37. Because I think it's a really important point. I think numerically this can be worked out. Over the past few years, I have often looked at how much does the church spend giving to the poor and needy versus And I would look at that as faith blind charity. Because when we come to look at fast offerings, those are given to members of the church who first pay their tithings. So it is a membership perk, not faith, blind charity. So fast offerings for whatever they make up of the billions that the Church claims, Something like 800 million of that. You can put that to one side. So for me, I think if you are looking at how much the Church spends on real estate, how expensively they adorn temples, and I've done videos where I've gone through how much these things cost. It's tens of thousands of dollars in furniture. The most ornate furniture you can. Ornately built. And whatever furniture you can imagine, you can't buy taste. But that's a conversation for another time. But they spend a lot of money on this furniture and on the adorning of temples. And so here's a direct condemnation of that. More than you love the poor and needy, the sick and afflicted. And I would argue that absolutely just numerically, the Church spends more of their money on the adorning of their churches than they do on the poor, needy, the sick and afflicted.

Julia 43:46 Well, and then verse 39, it goes on and says, you have suffered the hungry and the needy, naked and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you and notice them not.

Nemo 43:56 Also, why do you adorn yourselves with that which hath no life? Such a strong line. It's like, why? Why are you focused on these things that don't live instead of caring for the life around you?

Kolby Reddish 44:09 Right. And then continuing on into verse 40, in light of our last episode where we talked about the sec, the efforts the Church took to withhold the size of its asset portfolio, like it was specific actions that they took to mislead people to make this difficult to discover. Yay. Why do you build up your secret abominations? To get gain and cause that widow should mourn before the Lord and also orphans to mourn before the Lord and also the blood of their fathers and husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground for vengeance upon your heads. I don't know about the back half of that verse, but these were absolutely steps that were taken in secret to protect the confidentiality. Remember what Christopher Waddell said. What's the difference between secret and confidential? It's a matter of perspective. It's a point of view.

Nemo 44:55 Right?

Kolby Reddish 44:55 Yeah. Like they did it for the explicit purpose of getting gain. It's just crazy how much these words condemn the contemporary practices.

Julia 45:06 Yeah, yeah. Okay. So this is going forward. That's all I have on the Scriptures and tithing in the Scriptures, but tithing in Mormon history is what the main part of this episode that I want to talk about or that I find enjoyment of. So this is from Joseph Smith's journal. This is. This happened May 12th of 1838. So this says, Saturday 12th this day, President Smith and Sidney Rigdon, together with myself, attended the High Council to lay before it some business pertaining to themselves directly and individually. The presidency laid before the High Council their situation as to maintaining their families in the situation and relation they stood to the Church, spending, as they have for eight years, their time and talents and property and the service of the Church, and are now reduced, as it were, to absolute beggary and still were detained in service of the Church. And it now become necessary that something should be done for their support, either by the Church or else they must do it themselves of their own labors. And if the Church said help yourselves, they would thank them and immediately do so. But if the Church said serve us, then some provisions must be made for them. The subject was taken into consideration by the council who acts for the Church and thoroughly investigated. Whereupon the council voted to authorize the bishop to give or to make over to President Joseph Smith Jr. And Sidney Rigdon each an 80 of land, meaning 80 acres of land situated adjacent to the city corporation, which laid is the property of the Church. Which land is the property of the Church also voted that a committee of three be appointed to the council to contract with said presidency to their satisfaction for their services this present year for the preaching of or receiving the Word of God by revelation, neither for instructing the Saints in righteousness, but for services rendered in the printing establishment in translating the ancient records, etc. Etc. The committee, which consisted of George W. Harris, Elias Higbee and Simon Carter, who agreed with President Smith and Rigdon, should be entitled to and receive for this year. And this section is left blank. So receive for this year blank amount of money as a just renumeration for their services. And then here's an image of just that blank part. It's just. This is a. Yeah. Anyway, do you guys have thoughts on this before I do? Okay.

Joseph Smith and the Early Tithing Revelations

Nemo 47:37 I find it interesting that they're very specific that they're not paying them for teaching, they're not paying them for increasing the righteousness, but specifically for services rendered in the printing of the Book of Mormon, essentially, and the translation.

Julia 47:52 Yeah.

Nemo 47:53 So they said, right, we'll pay you for doing that work. We're not going to pay you for being a priest. We're not going to.

Julia 48:02 Is this a way of Joseph Smith getting around the priestcraft thing? Because it's like these are real things that people get paid for like printing and I don't translate.

Nemo 48:10 This is like, yeah, we're paying you for doing actual work. We're not going to commit priestcrafts and pay you for being.

Kolby Reddish 48:16 But this introduces a huge problem with modern apologetic attempts to say that when Joseph Smith was translating that we shouldn't hold him to a secular translation standard or really any translation standard because it was all done by revelation because look at how it separates. So he can't get paid for preaching or receiving the word of God by revelation because that would be priest.

Julia 48:37 Oh, that's true.

Kolby Reddish 48:39 But he can get paid for translating the ancient records which in 1838, the ancient records that they would be talking about here. I mean you're right, emo. They could be looking back to the translation of the Book of Mormon, but more contemporary to that is Book of Abraham, which started in 1835. And it's important to note there are some apologists who argue that the entirety of the Book of Abraham translation project was completed in 1835 because they need that dating to be able to make the rest of their arguments that the scribes basically tried this reverse translation project. So it's interesting to me that this continues into 1838 at least. This seems to suggest that there's some type of translation going on in 1838. To me.

Julia 49:24 Yeah. So Joseph's asking, they were asking for 80 acres of land and a certain amount of money that has just been left blank as we've seen. And then. But we find out in this is more from the minute Book Minute Book two on the same day fifth resolved that Higbee, Elias Higbee, Simon Carter and George W. Harris be a committee to converse with Joseph Smith Jr. And Sidney Rigdon to agree upon some particular price for wages of their services printing office and their salaries for the coming year. And so then six resolved that the committee be authorized to instruct the bishop to pay the First Presidency, Joseph, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon whatever sum they agree with for them. So they're just saying, yeah, we'll, we'll figure that we'll get that.

Nemo 50:08 So those are the three from the last part that were told it would contract with them.

Julia 50:11 Yeah, right. But then the amount of money agreed upon was not discussed until Ebenezer Robinson spoke about it in the return in the 1880s. So several years later. Nima, do you want to read the rest of this?

Nemo 50:24 Yeah. The above named committee reported to the High Council at a subsequent meeting, but the sum agreed upon is left blank in the history as printed the amount they asked for was eleven hundred dollars each per annum. This is the equivalent of roughly 40k a year. The question was warmly discussed by the members of the council until near sundown. George M. Hinkle bitterly opposed it, as the church had always been opposed to a salaried ministry. A majority of the council, however, favoured the measure. So that when the vote was called, 11 voted for it and won against it. But when it was noised abroad that the council had taken such a step, the members of the church, almost to a man, lifted their voices against it. The expression of disapprobation was so strong and emphatic that at the next meeting of the High Council, the resolution voting them a salary was rescinded.

Julia 51:17 Okay, can one of you guys explain why? What just happened there? Because they voted 11, voted four and then one against. And then the voice, and then it's put to the people because church against it. Right. But churches back then, they functioned a little differently and whenever you raise your hand or whatever, when they, they would present things to the membership. I don't know if you guys can talk more about that.

Nemo 51:37 Well, so they. This when it says when it was noised abroad that the council had taken such a step. So it's literally when it, when it leaked from the fact that they'd said they're going to do it. So one of them comes home, tells their wife, one of them comes home, tells a brother and it spreads amongst the members. The members of the church get annoyed and go, hang on, no, this isn't happening. We're not paying Joseph and Sydney 40k a year or its equivalent at that time. And they're, they're lifting their voices against it. They're upset against. It was so strong that the High Council go back and say, actually no, we're not doing that.

Julia 52:15 Yeah. So this one.

Kolby Reddish 52:17 And then what happens is, well, the council void votes. Yes. And then the members of the church hear about it and say, we're so against this because the church has always been opposed to a salaried ministry. So Hinkle basically is representing. The average view of the members of the church at the council gets outvoted and then the High Council basically gets the feedback from the members of the church and rescinds the motion to vote them. The salary is the way I'm understanding.

Julia 52:46 Right. I guess my thought was because back then the membership were given more of a voice and they could decide on things like, I know for my research in the Word of Wisdom, the members were, were like very specific on like what they believed that was. And, and so the membership could vote on certain things, Whereas this, it really does sound like a leak because it's like whenever they, when it was noised abroad. So I just think that's interesting because I don't think that would. I don't think that would pass now. If the 12 wanted something and the membership didn't like it, they would just have to deal with it. Whereas back then, you know. Well, yeah, yeah, but, yeah, so it's

Nemo 53:20 because none of us, none of us live in, you know, Little Cottonwood or whatever it is, the neighborhood where they all hang out. Right. This is, it's a very different church. This is your neighbors, this is people in your town. This is your. The people of a. Of a small area kicking off with you.

Julia 53:37 Yeah. And it also seems to be that, like, there seem, there seem to be that workaround where, you know, it's, it's for the printing establishment and the translating of ancient records. It's not for preaching and receiving. Yeah. I think people are. They weren't buying that. Yeah.

Kolby Reddish 53:54 Particularly because this is one of the. When we go back and we think about the verses that we were looking at in the Book of Mormon, a sign of an apostate church is that you have a salaried ministry. So even if they want to slice that distinction as fine as they can, that you were talking about, Julia, the difference between, between what they're being paid for, Obviously, the members of the church who have been reading the Book of Mormon, who have been engaging with the Book of Mormon, who converted to this church because in part because it didn't have a salaried ministry, are going to feel like, wait, what? We're just doing the same thing that we could have done inside of Methodism or inside of Catholicism, of course they're going to feel like that is a complete change of the game. Whereas members of the current LDS Church just have gotten used to not being able to ask any questions about how the church engages, you know, financially with its leaders. Most members probably still don't even know that the leaders receive a, you know, stipend.

Julia 54:49 Right, right. And so in the same issue of the return, Ebenezer went on to say, a few days after the High Council refused to give a salary to Joseph Smith Jr. And Sidney Rigdon, the tithing revelation of July 8, 1838, was given in which the poor was. Are not mentioned. There is no mention of the poor in this revelation. And being personally acquainted with the circumstances under which it was given, we never could feel that the Lord ever gave it for the good of his people. Neither can we believe it after seeing its practical workings for 50 years. We verily believe if the Lord had anything to do with it, it was upon the principles set forth in the 14th chapter of Ezekiel. They evidently had set up an idol in their hearts, and the Lord answered them according to their idols. And then he goes on to say, we feel sure that the High Council at Far West. We feel sure that had the High Council at Far west carried out the resolution and paid Joseph Smith Jr. And Sidney Rigdon the salary they asked for of $1,100 each per year, we would never have seen this tithing revelation. The church had been in existence over eight years and had seen its purest happiest days before that was given. So he's of the opinion that had they done that, given them 80 acres of land and 1100 dollars tithing would never have happened.

Nemo 56:09 And we can't. We can't know that. That's. That's a fair opinion. I. I can see how that would be. But it's interesting that his. His closing line is kind of like, the church was great before money got involved.

Julia 56:23 Yeah.

Nemo 56:23 And there is. There is a pattern in all sorts of organizations throughout history that once money gets involved, things get bad things. You know, money can be a corrupting force. Gain can be a corrupting force. We've seen it enough times. And this line here, they set up an idol in their hearts and the Lord answered them according to their idols. He's essentially saying they had an outcome in mind, and then God gave them the answer that they wanted. And I feel like I'm trying to be fair about this. I think we see other examples of times in which Joseph Smith needs an answer from God and he just so happens to get the answer that fulfills the need he has. Right. Whether it's justifying his practice of polygamy to his wife, whether it's getting men to stop chewing tobacco so his wife will stop bugging him about it. Whether it's, you know, any of these things. We see these examples of Joseph Smith getting expedient revelation.

Julia 57:22 Yeah.

Nemo 57:24 Even down to small revelations where someone else is claiming to receive revelations, and he shuts that down immediately. Early on in the Doctrine and Covenants, he's like, no, no, no. Only I am the one that's actually getting these. Thank you very much.

Julia 57:38 Yeah.

Kolby Reddish 57:39 Right. His. His seer stone totally works. Other people's seer stones, not so much. Right.

Nemo 57:45 What was the name of the guy who was. Who was also like, yeah, no, I've got one too.

Julia 57:49 Is that Hiram Page?

Kolby Reddish 57:51 And he. Joe's. He being Joseph, had Hiram Page's black seer stone ground to dust because he believed it was, or he claimed, I guess I should say he claimed it was, you know, some demonic or devilish element.

Julia 58:06 Yeah.

Kolby Reddish 58:07 So there's. There's not one, but two different types of magic rocks in early Mormonism. Good good magic rocks and bad magic rocks.

Julia 58:17 It reminds me of Joseph, the revelation to take the copyright or to take. To sell the copyright to can in Canada. And he was like, well, I must have gotten. It must have been a revelation not from God, but from the devil.

Kolby Reddish 58:28 Right.

Julia 58:29 Or some, some language like that.

Kolby Reddish 58:30 So like, yeah, some revelations are from man, some are from the devil, and some are from God. Well, those are all the options. Yep.

Julia 58:38 Yeah. Okay, so this is a. This is just a footnote that was on the Joseph papers.

Kolby Reddish 58:43 Julia, can we go back one to the last slide real quick? Is that a photo of Ebenezer Robinson?

Julia 58:48 Yeah, that's Ebenezer Robinson.

Kolby Reddish 58:50 Yeah. Okay. I just have to remark that he's got a very strong eyebrow game. That's amazing.

Julia 58:55 He really does. Yeah. Very, very strong eyebrows.

Kolby Reddish 58:59 Yeah.

Julia 59:01 And they're also very dark. Like his hair is very white and his. Anyway, that's what they look like in the photograph.

Kolby Reddish 59:05 Anyway, fantastic eyebrow game. Can I read this one?

Julia 59:09 Yes. This is, this is just a footnote. This is just rating what we've. What we've read. But this is just the Church admitting that this is what's happening in their Joseph Smith papers. So, yeah, you can read it.

Kolby Reddish 59:19 So this is the footnote from that same entry that we've already talked about. So Joseph Smith and the Church face not only limited economic resources, but also the dilemma of financially supporting church officers while avoiding scriptural proscriptions against priestcraft. Prior to the Joseph Smith and Rigdon's arrivals in Far west, the Missouri High Council decided to financially support other church officers, including High Councilors, the clerks of the High Council, the Patriarch and the church agent. The council minutes, like the present journal entry, do not record an agreed upon amount of remuneration. However, Ebenezer Robinson, the council clerk, recounted years later that the committee made a later recommendation to the High Council of an annual stipend for eleven hundred dollars for each of the presidency. One of the things I was going to say when I was looking at that amount because that was equivalent to about $40,000 in today's currency, it's important to talk about how different the economy would have Been back then, that's like 40 grand. On top of having the 80 acres and the ability to provide sustenance, that seems like a pretty solid living. It'd be interesting to see what the, like what the average salary for people that were in a similar, you know, in a similar geographical region would have been, because I'm guessing that's well above the median. It then continues. Robinson further recounted that when the word. When word of the action became known, the members of the church, almost to a man, lifted their voices against it and the resolution was revoked.

Julia 1:00:46 Yeah. And I like that it pointed out that the. The prescriptions to avoid scriptural prescriptions against priestcraft. So, like that was the language on purpose. Like we're trying to avoid priestcraft, but we're still wanting to get the 80 acres and 1100 dollars. So do it this way is. Yeah.

Nemo 1:01:01 And so anyone trying to claim that Robinson's take was cynical and that, you know, he was a late source in 1880 and he can't be trusted. The Church is quite happy to quote him, quite happy to reference him, the exact same thing we just read. So.

Julia 1:01:19 Yeah.

Nemo 1:01:20 Just in case anyone tries to discredit.

Kolby Reddish 1:01:24 Right. And it's important to note he was the council clerk at the time all of this was happening. Right. So he was one of the people who was involved intimately in these conversations.

Julia 1:01:33 Right, Right, Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So this is the tithing revelation. Nemo, do you want to read this? This is what actually was produced a revelation.

Nemo 1:01:44 And I just, as a personal note, love the Q and A style of some of the revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants, including the pure Adamic language. That's a personal favorite. Anyway, a revelation question. O Lord, show unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing. It's kind of not a question. More demand, I would argue. It's also really interesting at the end, but.

Julia 1:02:12 Right.

Nemo 1:02:13 It's a question that implies the outcome.

Kolby Reddish 1:02:16 Right. It's also really interesting for people who would say that there's no connection, that Ebenezer Robinson is speculating that there's no connection. One of the explanations that apologists have to use when we look at the track record of prophets in the church and revelation received in this church is that prophets ask the questions that the contemporary needs are dealing with. Right. We didn't lift the priesthood ban because no one thought about it for long enough or sought that revelation until 1978. We know that that's. That history is much more complicated than that simple kind of apologetic response but that's what I grew up hearing. Right. Just no one thought to ask if that's the case. Ebenezer Robinson's belief that this revelation wouldn't have occurred but for the May payment, you know, falling through, it would seem to suggest that that's why this question is being asked in the first place. Right. I sincerely doubt that anyone else was asking, hey, how much of our property does God require of us to pay over to the church? But that's the way the question is phrased, right? How much thou requires of thy servants, properties of thy people for a tithing? Why is that question being asked? It seems like Ebenezer Robinson was right on the money with why that question is being asked. That's my point.

Julia 1:03:33 Right. And this is less than two and a half. This is less than two months difference, right? Yeah.

Nemo 1:03:39 And so you get to kind of get a slightly cynical take, perhaps, is that you look at this, you go, well, Joseph Smith gets to play the ultimate trump card. He speaks for God. So if he can't get what he wants or what he feels he needs to survive. Okay, let's not frame it in terms of greed. Just he feels he needs a way to be able to focus on this full time and provide for his family still. And he's not able to get it because the members of the church have said no. He can. Then this is another lever he can pull. He can go and speak to God and get whether you believe it's a genuine revelation or whether you believe it's him putting on the voice of God, either way, that's a lever he has to pull here. And the answer he gets from the Lord is quite interesting. It says, answer verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church of Zion for the building of mine house, and for the laying the foundation of Zion, and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the presidency of my church. And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one tenth of all their interest annually. And this shall be a standing law unto them forever. For my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you. And behold, I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this Law, sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy. Behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you, and this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen. Can we go back to the first part of that?

Tithing to Pay Church Debts and Establish Governance

Julia 1:05:33 Yeah.

Nemo 1:05:35 This is just a personal take, so I'm very clear on that. Never has language in the Doctrine and Covenants struck me as more cult leader like than this. What do you need to do? Give all your property over to the church and then. And do it for the debts of the presidency of my church. Imagine that in a modern circumstance, you've got Sam Bateman saying you need to give me all your stuff because I have debts that I need to. To pay. Right. Those coming out of his mouth, you can hear him saying the same thing. And you would think that sounds like a guy running a cult. So some of this is, and I know that's loaded language, I know that will upset some people, but this is language in the Doctrine and Covenants that I think is very. Is very similar to the sort of language used by other. By. By cult leaders.

Julia 1:06:26 Well, they're not. I know you referenced the Nauvoo House a lot. That revelation also really sounds like that where he's instructing specific men to invest in that. But. Sorry, Kolby, what were you going to say?

Kolby Reddish 1:06:35 Well, I was just going to say, even if people don't like that specific reference to like cult like tactics. Nemo, where I would point is actually what Jesus tells the apostles in the New Testament. They're told to go and not think about what they're going to eat, what they're going to wear. They're told that if they have faith, things will be provided for them. And I think it's just interesting when you compare, right. Like the idea, it's almost an element where the church reveals how little faith that has in its foundational scriptures. Because if those verses are true, then why do we need to talk about the debts of the presidency of the church? When it's Jesus, he says, take a look at the birds of the air. They don't sow, neither do they reap. And yet God provides for them. And so it's just interesting that then when it comes to Joseph Smith's needs, it does get very real. It's where reality comes in and shows how difficult it can be to follow those things that they were following based on faith while you were reading this. Because also Looking at it, paying for the debts of the presidency of the church. While you were reading this, I was looking at some data to look at the equivalent levels of compensation to see like, oh, how much would that eleven hundred dollars have been? And good data indicates that I found from University of Iowa indicates that the average day labor, like the average common laborer, would make about $270 a year. A skilled laborer, like a skilled carpenter, would make around $450 a year. So if we set aside the one time gift of the 80 acres and we recognize that that would be used to also generate an income that still is the equivalent of four and a half times a common laborer's annual earnings and two and a half times that of a skilled laborer's earnings. So this was.

Julia 1:08:29 Can we compare, like pastors, like people with similar positions as Joseph. I wonder if that would be. If the numbers would be different. But that's a huge difference.

Kolby Reddish 1:08:37 Yeah, That's a difference.

Julia 1:08:38 $100 a year. Yeah, a big difference.

Kolby Reddish 1:08:41 This is a very similar modern, you know, modest stipend. Yes, I guess is what I'm saying. Like this was very high level of compensation. But I will compare against pastors if I can.

Julia 1:08:52 Yeah. Okay. So while you're doing that. So another revelation was given the same day as the tithing revelation that is now DNC120. And I just wanted to throw this in there because I feel like it's important. The revelation reads, revelation given the same day on the disposal of the property of the church. Verily, thus saith the Lord that the time has now come that it shall be disposed by a council composed of the first presidency of my church and of the bishop and his council, and of my high council. And by mine own voice unto them saith the Lord. Even so. Amen. And I guess it's just reminding me of the sec, the kind of the structure on who's involved in the money, because it was the First Presidency, the presiding bishopric, and then Clark over that, the. Over the ensign peak.

Nemo 1:09:37 But here you've got. This is essentially setting up the council on the disposition of the Tithes, which still exists in the church to this day. Which isn't. That includes the quorum of the 12.

Julia 1:09:46 Yeah, yeah.

Kolby Reddish 1:09:49 I was able to find some information on that. Julia. There actually is a study that looked at Episcopal, like historical in Missouri. So we're looking at the right region. Looked at historical Episcopal Church salaries for rectors, people who ran their buildings in 1831. And it looks like they were paid about $300 a year. So again we're looking at a similar inflation number. Like that's at least three times. Three and a half times is what Joseph Smith and Sydney were asking to be paid. When it comes to Methodists, their traveling preachers were paid as little as $40 a year in the same region. And there's specific, there's a Missouri State historical archive, I'm sorry, State of Missouri Historical Society that talks about how early Missouri preachers earned so little from their preachers wages that they had to engage in another occupation because they were only paid 40 to $80 a year.

Julia 1:10:46 So and this is in 1831, is that consistent? 1831.

Guest 1:10:49 Correct.

Julia 1:10:49 So this is a difference because it's 1838. So I mean I imagine that the numbers would have gone up slightly, but not slightly, but not much. That is so little money for these traveling preachers. And you said 300. So it's less than the day laborer. Is that what you were. I can't remember the exact numbers you

Kolby Reddish 1:11:05 were comparing but the day labor was around $250 a year and the skilled labor was like 400.

Julia 1:11:10 Oh the skilled is 400.

Kolby Reddish 1:11:11 So between the two.

Julia 1:11:13 So Joseph's asking for 1100 for him and Sydney, that's so two and a

Kolby Reddish 1:11:18 two and a half times that of a skilled laborer. And that's not even factoring in the gift of the 80 acres.

Julia 1:11:24 Right. I also want to say that, I want to point out like one of the, one of my efforts that I'm doing is to try to republish old out of print public domain Mormon books. And a lot of these people talk about like one of them was Henry Caswell. He talks, I think it was him specifically where he talks about how members of the church would just give Joseph things. They would give him horses, they would give him carriages, they would give him gold watches. And so, and then he would either re gift them or have them. And so like even without this, people were giving him stuff, you know, where you say like think not you like the, you know, the Lord takes care of the lilies of the field or the birds. Joseph was being given things. But, but he, you know, I'm not, he's saying that he's destitute and things like that. I know that he struggled, he and his family. But I just wanted to say that I recall that that aspect of church history where the members would, were very giving towards him and his family.

Nemo 1:12:11 So yeah, and so if that revelation that had come through had essentially said, you know, if he'd Come to the Lord rather than saying, right, what do people have to give me? Or how much stuff do I get to take? If he'd gone, okay, how am I going to continue to do the work that I've been called to do while also providing for my family? If that had been the question that come through and then God had gone, okay, cool, fine. You need to rely on the members of the church, and they will take care of your family in a far less monetary way, in a far less sort of seemingly predatory way and a far less taking way. And a. Okay, no, this community will support you as you minister to them. You know, different families will feed you or they will do this or that, whatever. That would seem a lot more in keeping than. No, no, they have to give you all their stuff, all their surplus stuff, and then 10%.

Julia 1:13:08 Yeah. I just want to. I also want to point out that just comparing this tithing revelation to what we read in the New. The New and Old Testament is just so different because, like, I can see the laying the foundation of Zion because Zion is, you know, where God's people are building a minehouse. I guess I can kind of see that because the Lord needs temples, I guess. But that's through the Mormon lens. But then. But the debts of the presidency and for the priesthood are. For the priesthood is very vague. And then for the debts of the presidency, nowhere, nowhere does that exist in the New and Old Testament. I mean, I guess, I don't know. It's just.

Nemo 1:13:43 Well, because the people in that position wouldn't be getting into debt normally, right? Because the whole point of the way these Levite priests operated or these people is they were separate from the community. They're in a way, like monks now. Right. There are monks in Asia who will go to a local village. Local village feeds them, they eat, they go back. They have nothing else. They pray, they meditate, they do whatever it is they do. They've lived very simple lives, and they're the. Yeah, they're cared for by a local community. You know, you've got a similar sort of setup with Old Testament priests. This is a very different thing.

Julia 1:14:23 Yeah, yeah, I do. Like how Dan McClelland said that the. How the early church functioned was similar was closer to that the language of the. Of the Bible. And so I also want to talk about is how the early saints paid their tithing. And so on the church's website, it lists out different ways that the early saints paid tithing. And it's just under the section tithing, and it says that they paid, they paid in, in kind. Donations meaning grain, vegetables, merchandise, cut stone, lumber, lumber, shingles, livestock. And they, and they sometimes donated one day in 10 to work on the temple or other projects. And then land appreciation was the other one. So. Yeah, so not, not in monetary ways, but, but in, but in kind.

How Early Saints Paid Tithing in Labor and Goods

Nemo 1:15:07 And so can you imagine just for a moment the idea that we, because we know people like Leighton Construction and Elder Zwick's construction company build temples. Right. Jacobson Construction is another one. These church member owned and run construction firms build temples. They could still pay their workers, but instead of paying tithing to the church, they could, you know, do these sorts of things, whatever. Instead they get paid by the church for these projects. So you've got a system where members benefit now from the building of temples. They get these contracts to build church buildings rather than donating one day in 10 to work on the temple or other projects. You've seen a complete 180 there.

Kolby Reddish 1:15:56 Yeah. And anytime you're doing work for the church, I've thought about this before for employees of the church, you're literally like just paying back to the church one tenth of what the church has paid you, which makes a really weird, kind of a really weird situation. Especially if you're a church employee and you're required to pay that tithing to keep your ecclesiastical status, you know, solid so that you can continue to keep your job. It's such a weird thing. Like in any other arrangement, like if my workplace required me to pay 10% of my 10% of my income back to the workplace for whatever they want to use it for and that was a condition of employment, that is just such a weird scenario.

Nemo 1:16:40 Weird enforced 10 pay cut right in that opportunity.

Julia 1:16:45 Right? Yeah, that happened to me on a smaller scale. I worked as a, as a custodian for my, the entire time I was attending byu, Idaho all four years. And so it would be weird to get paid and then I have to give, paid by the church essentially, and then I have to give the church back 10%. I mean it wasn't. Well, I guess in my, I had to wait tiding in order to continue attending there. But it wasn't quite the same as like a church employee or like anyone else.

Nemo 1:17:08 I thought this just come to my mind is do you feel like civil servants feel the same when they pay tax?

Kolby Reddish 1:17:14 No. As a civil servant.

Julia 1:17:16 Oh yeah.

Nemo 1:17:17 Cool. Yeah, that's it. That's the answer.

Kolby Reddish 1:17:21 At least, at least this civil servant doesn't.

Nemo 1:17:24 Because you can imagine, right? You can imagine the argument, people saying well, hang on. If you work for the government, then the government pays you, and then you are forced by law to give some of that money back to the government, essentially. Sure. So, you know, you can see the argument. So I just thought I'd ask the question. Do you think that's comparable? You as a civil servant, say no. So that's cool.

Kolby Reddish 1:17:44 Yeah.

Nemo 1:17:46 All right, moving on.

Julia 1:17:47 Okay, so the next part is. This part I think is super interesting, an interesting aspect of Mormon tithing. And Nemo, you mentioned it earlier about people. People being tithing.

Nemo 1:17:59 Yes.

Julia 1:18:00 So. So whether in or out of the LDS Church, you may have heard the rumor that an enslaved man was donated to the church as tithing. This claim comes from William Jordan Flake, the son of James M. Flake and Agnes Flake, concerning a man named Green Flake. Greene had given. Had been given to James and Agnes as a wedding gift when he was just 10 years old by James's father. William later wrote in 1851, his mother and family went to C.C. rich and a.m. lyman to settle San Bernardino. Previous to going, she gave her her Negro slave, Green Flake, one of the pioneers of 1847, to the church as tithing. He then worked for two years for President Young with his wife, worked for and Heber C. Kimball, and then got his liberty and settled near Union. So according to the son of this enslaver and slate. How do you. How do you say that?

Nemo 1:18:55 Slave owner.

Julia 1:18:56 Slave owner. He's saying that Green Flake was given to the church's tithing. And so that's where that's coming from. I don't know if you guys have both heard that. I had heard that before that that was the case.

Nemo 1:19:07 Wow. But I can believe it.

Julia 1:19:10 Well, there's. In her2022 book titled Slavery in Zion, independent historian and adjunct university instructor at byu Idaho, Amy Tanner Therio makes a different argument. Green Flake acted at Green Flake acted as Brigham Young's personal wagon driver when they crossed the plains to the Utah Territory. James died in 1850 in an accident. So the owner and in 1851, Agnes moved to California and left Greene in Utah Territory for unknown reasons. And the laws at the time were such that Agnes could not legally sell or donate an enslaved man belonging to her husband's estate. And Greene would have known that as well. So she can't just give him away. However, it was legal for Agnes to hire Greene out. Green's granddaughter, Bertha Stevens Udell, later told an interviewer Brigham Young gave a yoke of oxen for Green Flake. The worth of this yoke of oxen was $100, which was a known documentary price for hiring an enslaved worker in the Utah Territory. And so, so they're saying there was this transaction that happened. So she can't actually give him away because he's part of this estate at the laws at the time. So. But Brigham traded a yoke of oxen for Green, and so this. So he's like, hiring on Green to work for him.

Nemo 1:20:27 Well, I've got a couple of points here. Just because he's like, oh, well, you know, Green would have known that she couldn't legally sell or donate in a safe man. Most of the Mormon Church at this time settling the Utah Territory were doing things that weren't entirely legal. Right. You've got polygamy rampant, not legal. You know, you've got things going on that aren't necessarily strictly by the book, shall we say? There's something not by the book about dressing up as Native Americans and mastering a wagon load of people. There's. There's something that's, you know, not entirely legal about that, and yet people are doing it. So this argument that it wasn't allowed, I don't think is a good argument to say that she didn't do it.

Julia 1:21:06 And that's, That's a good pushback. There's. In one of the Senseman presentations, Marianne Clements was talking about the landing and how women couldn't legally own land back then. But then she makes the argument that a lot in, in several cases, women were seen as the landowners. And so. And then she breaks that down with her evidence. And I find that. I found that really compelling. And so, like, just because something wasn't. Wasn't set up a certain way legally, it doesn't mean that it wasn't seen that way. Or like you said, people were.

Kolby Reddish 1:21:31 Yeah, the way, the way I would phrase it is, like, women weren't guaranteed that they could own property. That doesn't mean that they absolutely could not. It kind of depended on local custom and local discretion and how that, how we knew that, how the community knew that person. Right. And, like, how they recognized them because they're. They're. It just wasn't us. It wasn't something that was completely standardized, but women were not guaranteed the right to own property like they are today.

Julia 1:22:01 Right. That's a good pushback.

Nemo 1:22:03 Nima, can I also ask what it means when you say that they're an independent historian and adjunct university instructor at BYU Idaho? How independent can someone be if they are working at BYU Idaho. Genuine question. I don't.

Julia 1:22:20 Yeah. I don't know. That was what her bio.

Nemo 1:22:23 My understanding was that if you work. If you're an. Does adjunct university instructor mean that you're an external hire who comes in and does some teaching?

Kolby Reddish 1:22:32 Like, that's. Yes. So I've served as an adjunct for several different law schools. And what it means is you're basically a contract employee that teaching only a limited. Like you're not a full professor. And so that's what it means by independent historian means. She's a historian, but she's not working necessarily as a historian in the capacity for the institution. She's probably teaching a class or two on history at BYU Idaho.

Nemo 1:22:58 Right. Okay. So I guess the question there is like, I'm just asking for bias purposes. Right. How Mormon is this woman?

Julia 1:23:07 Right. And that is a good question to ask. Like, is she looking at this through a faithful lens? Is she looking through a critical lens? Because I do think there are active members of the church, such as D. Michael Quinn, who weren't afraid of looking at things in a historical and being critical of some of the things that the church had done. And so I wouldn't. So. But that's a good question.

Nemo 1:23:25 These days, particularly. Particularly under Clark Gilbert's reign, if you were working under the purview of church universities, you had to be really careful about what you published and what you said.

Julia 1:23:36 Right.

Nemo 1:23:36 So I'm just in 22. It's not that long ago.

Kolby Reddish 1:23:40 There may be more to this argument because this is kind of just a snapshot from it. But I agree with you, Nemo, that if her argument is simply that. Well, at the time, this was it. What was her name? Sorry, on the last slide. Agnes. Agnes wouldn't have been allowed to at a woman or as a woman at that time, legally sell or donate the enslaved man. If that's the only reason she believes he wasn't sold or donated. That to me is not a strong enough argument, like you said.

Julia 1:24:10 Yeah. There's a little bit more that she. That I have on this topic. So we can go and then maybe you can give a different assessment.

Kolby Reddish 1:24:15 Sure.

Julia 1:24:16 So since the market value had been paid for greens labor and she. This is from. This is what I'm gathering from her. It is unlikely that this transaction was anything dealing with tithing. Additionally, Amy Tanner Therio explained that, quote, green Flake does not appear in the general labor tithing accounts. And Young indicated two or three times that Flake worked for him rather than the church. In an 1854 letter Brigham Young wrote, quote, greene worked for me for about a year, unquote. And so this is a difference between Williams account where he says he was working for two years. Greene's employment with Brigham ended by 1853. Thurio also added that during his year of hire, the territorial legislature created an act in relation to service. The law did not allow the transfer of labor without the consent of an enslaved or indentured individual. And since Flake was unlikely to provide consent when Young hired him and kept him in the Great Salt Lake Valley, he effectively provided Flake with a gradual transition to freedom. Greene's relation to Brigham continued to be an important part of his family's heritage. And one great granddaughter recalled, quote, green shed tears of the death of Brigham Young and helped dig his grave and was at the funeral of the beloved prophet, unquote.

Nemo 1:25:33 I mean, that doesn't hold any water for me. We were proud of the fact that my grandfather was a slave to Brigham Young. Isn't that something to be proud of? It's like, well, not really, you know, and people's personal opinions on that relation, people's value that they put on that relation, has no bearing on what the actual nature of that relationship was.

Julia 1:25:56 I will say I do think that it is interesting where she says the green flag does not appear on the general labor tithing accounts.

Nemo 1:26:03 That's more interesting.

Julia 1:26:05 Right? Well, but you're right with him crying at his funeral, like, that's not. That's like, that doesn't really. Right. But then also, there's another piece of that I thought was really interesting. Therio shared something else. She said, did Brigham Young use tithing resources to hire Green Flake during the effort to organize and build settlements throughout the western United States? Brigham Young's finances became so intertwined with the church finances that the complicated court overseeing distribution of his estate finally involved litigation between his heirs and the church. Historian Leonard J. Arrington explained it was sometimes difficult to determine whether he had drawn on funds as trustee in trust or whether entries represented church expenditures in his own private capacity.

Kolby Reddish 1:26:50 Can you go back to the previous page? Yeah. So I'm confused. When I was looking at the. After the comment you made about the general labor tithing accounts, she says that Young indicated two or three times that Flake worked for him rather than the church. And she cites an 1854 letter from Brigham for that proposition. I was going to comment and say basically exactly what you just quoted from Arrington, which is, I don't know that Brigham is a reliable narrator on what was his and what was the church's. And I was going to say that before I read what was on the follow up slide. But the fact that the same author, I don't know, Amy Tanner Therio. But I'll just say I'm very unconvinced having looked at these altogether, because if you're writing right here on page 111 of your book that you've got this intermingling of Brigham's personal and church funds and then a couple of pages later you're going to say, oh, but Brigham Young differentiated between Green working for him and working for the church. What like those two things are completely contradictory.

Julia 1:27:57 Right.

Nemo 1:27:57 Yeah. I had the same thought, Kolby, is that like Brigham Young's attitude will have been very much, I am the church. Right, Exactly. This is the man who got this thing to work by being that kind of character. And so. Yeah. Like the fact that he claimed, well, Green worked for me.

Julia 1:28:15 Yeah, yeah. I, I do. I don't know. Amy Tanner theory. Oh. But I do appreciate that when, when historians are willing to put like, let's set everything on the table is what it seems like she's doing. And then she comes, she has her own conclusion where she doesn't think that he was. She seems to not think that he was tithing like. But you can also read that that could not. That might not be true because of how their funds are mingled and things like that.

Nemo 1:28:40 Yeah, I appreciate her putting it on the page. I appreciate that on page 111 she states that there was a lot of conflict between what was Brigham's and what was the Church's. And then on 112, she makes the point that Brigham said he worked for him rather than the Church. Those two things are true. But the way that she then seems to put that forward as saying, therefore he wasn't a slave, he wasn't paid to the church's tithing. I disagree with that conclusion based on the facts that she presents. That's the way I kind of. But I'm glad that she.

Kolby Reddish 1:29:16 The very last line about, you know, him digging the grave and weeping at Brigitte's funeral, he could have also been a slave and that all be true. That's. It seems like that's very obviously being offered for rhetorical purposes to say a slave would not feel this way. I don't think we have any good reason to say that that would be the case. He could be a slave and still feel that way.

Nemo 1:29:40 It feels very Mormon. It reminds me of when I was at the Fairview Town council and you had the people of Fairview saying, well, it's going to do this to migratory birds. It's going to light up the sky like this, so I can't see the Milky Way galaxy. It's going to make our neighborhood look less small and rural. And then you get members of church coming up and going, yeah, but there was a time when I got lost, but I could see the lights of a temple and it was really nice and made me feel safe. I'm like, cool or like, yeah, but our kids don't want to drive all the way to Dallas. And I'm like, yeah, again, fine. But relevance, like, and, and, and there is a very Mormon tendency through fast and testimony meetings and all the things that we learn to do and the ways that we learn to be convincing are all very. Feelings based very often. And so it does feel quite Mormons like, yeah, but he cried at his funeral. So really, could he have been given his tithing to, to the church? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Julia 1:30:28 Yeah, I do. I think the strongest evidence is that he was not. He did not appear on the labor general. Labor tithing accounts. But then you say that their, their funds were intermingled and they even went into litigation between him and the heirs. The, the heirs and the church. So like, I don't. So I, I would say, I don't know.

Nemo 1:30:45 So bad record keeping also exists. So again, like the, the, the.

Julia 1:30:50 That's true too.

Nemo 1:30:50 The absence of that evidence isn't evidence of the absence of him being.

Kolby Reddish 1:30:55 We'd have. Yeah, we'd have to know how accurate generally those accounts were to be able to say, well, we would expect this evidence here and it's not there.

Nemo 1:31:05 Given that we've been given reason to believe that those accounts were often perhaps not accurate because there was confusion and intermingling of Brigham's accounts and the church's accounts, then there seems to be evidence there that would quite easily lend itself to that not being a fully accurate picture of things. The general labor tithing accounts.

Julia 1:31:26 Yeah, yeah.

Kolby Reddish 1:31:27 At least possibly it's possible.

Nemo 1:31:29 Right?

Julia 1:31:30 Yep. I'm glad we had this discussion. This is really interesting. Okay. So going back. So according to the scriptures, you take this tithing, revelation and tithing seems to be implemented for four reasons. For the building of mine house, laying the foundation of Zion, for the priesthood, and for the debts of the presidency of the church. And it is interesting to think that the tithing was never actually implemented for the purpose of helping the poor and hungry, which seems to be a. Was a big emphasis seemingly with Christ in what the verses that we read and that. So those fall under the fast offering. So another interesting aspect is that we are told to pay all of our surplus and our interest. From Webster's 1828 dictionary, interest means a share, portion, part, any surplus, advantage, interest, surplus and increase are all synonymous with each other. Surplus advantage means benefit, gain, profit, also interest, increase. And so I want to look at this in the. In a business sort of way, but. So I'm gonna. But I have other things that I want to talk about too, before that. So. So, Nemo, you. We. You were talking about this when tithing became necessary for having a temple recommend, because not everyone was required to pay tithing. And actually Therio talked about that. She was actually. She was talking about she broke down Agnes's paying tithing, and because she was a widow, she wasn't required to pay tithing, but she did anyway. So the church at the time was not requiring everyone to pay. It's just if you had. If you had the means to do it, which we'll talk about later, but do you want to talk about this slide?

Tithing Tied to Eternal Salvation

Nemo 1:32:57 Yeah. Because this becomes a significant point, I think, in the history of tithing, the turning point at which it becomes directly tied to your eternal salvation. So your ability to go to the temple and participate in temple ordinances becomes directly related to whether you pay the Church money or not. That's how simple it is. Right. And once you get to that point where your salvation is on the line if you don't pay the Church money, that's where I think there's a significant shift in the relationship to tithing and the way in which the Church seeks to get tithing. So Wilford Woodruff gave a speech that was published in Journal Discourses, Volume 22, and it's January 9, 1881. He has told the bishops and presidents of stakes not to give recommends to young men or old men or anybody else who do not obey the laws of God in this respect. And I feel to back him up in this matter, for I know he will be justified before the Lord. So Wilfred was just backing up President Taylor.

Kolby Reddish 1:33:58 That end of. The end of that is very interesting to me. I know he will be justified before the Lord basically for saying this, right? Not for I know that this is true. That's just a very interesting focus. He's focusing on whether basically President Taylor will be justified before the Lord in saying this rather than whether what President Taylor is teaching is true. Now, of course, someone could say, well, those are the same thing. I'm picking apart too closely what he said. But when we see how often leaders of the church, including President Oaks, dedicate themselves to loyalty to the prophetic leadership of the church or to the institution of the church rather than to what is true, I think it's important to look at the fact that those two things aren't exactly the same thing. And he picked to say one over the other for some reason.

Julia 1:34:54 Yeah. And again, I think it's interesting. I'm going to show a clip with Elder Worthlin, but it's interesting to me that, you know, Jesus emphasized helping the poor and the tithing became part of the temple recommend, that that's part of your salvation. But helping the poor, giving a fast offering is not part of the temple recommend. And so I just wanted this clip from Elder Worthlin from his talk given his talk entitled the Law of the FAST given April 2001.

Nemo 1:35:20 FAST offerings are used for one purpose only, to bless the lives of those in need. Every dollar given to the bishop as a fast offering goes to assist the poor. When donations exceed local needs, they're passed along to fulfill the needs elsewhere.

Julia 1:35:39 So yeah, that's when they exceed, they're passed on somewhere else. And then the, the. I just wanted to point out the church updating their temple recommend questions. Are you a full tithe payer? They don't ask if you give to charity. They don't ask give to the poor at all. And just keep in mind that the part of tithing is to pay the debts of the presidency of the church. I don't know, I just wanted to point out.

Kolby Reddish 1:36:01 Can I ask both of you a personal question? When you were on your missions or you were working with missionaries and you had to teach people about the commandment and law of tithing, how comfortable did you feel teaching that commandment? Because, and I'll just speak for myself, I was for the most part pretty comfortable teaching most of the things that we taught as missionaries to people. But this is one that always made me feel very uncomfortable because whether I thought it was that way at the time or not, I could understand how people could see teaching that law, that commandment. Even though I believed it was a commandment at the time, I could see how they could see it as just like a solicitation or just as like manipulation. And so it was always something that I like dreaded going in, having to teach.

Nemo 1:36:51 Yeah, for me it always felt like, and as Brits, we don't like talking about money anyway. But for me, it always felt like, so here's the rub, right? So here's the thing that I know you're probably not gonna be comfortable with, but here's the, you know, it's not the tea and coffee. It's not the no smoking. It's not the no premarital sex. It's like those are all like, what. It's the. Because money just feels different. And it's not like I'm teaching them that, hey, as part of this, you're going to be required to give one day in 10 in service to someone or anything. Like, it's, it's the very specific. You're gonna have to give 10% of your money to this church. Always felt difficult.

Julia 1:37:31 Well, right. Yeah. So right now I'm looking over Preach my gospel. This is lesson four where you teach them the commandments. And under the section of tithing, it doesn't talk about, it doesn't talk about those four reasons for tithing. It just says, you know, it's the. The Lord will open the windows of heaven. It's paying off a debt. And these funds are used for ongoing activity in the church. Maintaining some things like that. It doesn't say. I think if I taught it out of the scriptures, that would make me uncomfortable. And I don't think that's. I think that's why I never did. I taught it out of these manuals or the. They gave you little pamphlets or they did at the time that you give to them. And so like, I think I was able to make myself feel better. I know that a lot of the people that I taught were not comfortable with that. Somebody got baptized. He's like, knowing that he was like, I will never pay tithing because I cannot make ends meet because I'm struggling with like, like with, you know, just paying rent or whatever. And so he and his wife and kids, they just never did. And then I had another gentleman who just was like, I don't want to give money to this billion dollar corporation. And so. But I think if I taught it the way that the doctor Covets lays it out, I think that would have made me uncomfortable because I don't think I even realized then what it lists off as a missionary. Okay. So I had mentioned that I was going to sprinkle in some clips from old general conferences. And so there's one here that I wanted to share by Lindj Robbins Talk is titled Tithing A Commandment Even for the Destitute. And it was given April of 2005.

Modern Church Teachings on Tithing Obligation

Nemo 1:38:55 No bishop, no missionary should ever hesitate or lack the faith to teach the law of tithing. To the poor, the sentiment of they can't afford to needs to be replaced with they can't afford not to. One of the first things a bishop must do to help the needy is ask them to pay their tithing. Like the widow.

Kolby Reddish 1:39:16 If a destitute family is faced with

Nemo 1:39:19 the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing. The bishop can help them with their food.

Julia 1:39:27 Did you guys have thoughts on that?

Kolby Reddish 1:39:29 Oh, it's gross. Makes me feel gross. Just listening to it makes me feel gross. Like I can absolutely, like when I try and steel, man, this. I can absolutely understand that this is about exercising faith. That's how they would explain it in the best case scenario. Right. This is about showing that you love God more than you love money. I can understand that. But when you look at the history, and I think that's one of the reasons it's important that we're doing this episode the way that you've done it, Julia. And you understand that you could exercise the exact same faith by dedicating one day and 10 or serving other people for one day and 10, that you could do some type of analog that isn't just specifically about money, then I think it becomes really problematic to me because it does look like exploitation. There's actually a John Oliver sketch when he talks about not just the LDS church soliciting money from people who are destitute, but other religions as well. And he plays this exact clip and he. I think the joke he says at the end of that clip is that's like telling someone that they'll solve their obesity problem by as soon as they reach the bottom of this family size bag of peanut M&MS. And like, if you already are not being able to make ends meet and then you're basically being told you have this other obligation. And not only is it an obligation, it's a debt that you owe God that you didn't even know that you owed God. I don't know. It's just a very problematic teaching to me. And aside from it being problematic, it's important to know it's not consistent with the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon literally talks about people who don't have sufficient means to give and that as long as they intend to or they want to, or they desire to serve other people in that way. Again, it's also the focus of tithing completely shifts. Right. It seems like in the scriptures it's more about caring for the needy. And in a weird reversal, this paradox in Lyn G. Robbins mind and the contemporary church's mind, it's about extracting money from the needy for their own benefit. It just is so problematic to me on so many different angles.

Julia 1:41:36 Yeah. So with me, every time I share that clip on my platforms, people are always like, oh, be sure to share that last sentence where he's saying, the bishop can help with that. And so I made sure to include it today. But what I want to point out is that the bishop, even if you go and say, hey, I really am struggling to pay my rent, I'm really struggling to pay whatever medical bills or whatever, it's under the discretion of the bishop, he can decide whether to help you or not. You, he could just like, no, I'm not going to help you. Like, I, as a missionary, I was able to see that a lot of bishops were willing to help people. In fact, one of them, he said, I don't know if I like this, but he, in order to help people who were members of the church, he would say, you have to meet with our missionaries. And so of course it's still up to them. But like I felt like this is a weird. I don't like this position that I'm in as a missionary because like they just needed help financially, but now they're being forced to listen, to listen to me in order to get help. But anyway, my. But like just the bishops don't always help. That's just what I wanted to point out is that like, even if I include that little line, even if he says the little line, that doesn't mean that people can actually get help.

Nemo 1:42:39 And also this is a church that has like self reliance courses and they made a big thing out of self reliance and how people should rely on themselves. What they're creating here is reliance on them as an institution. They're saying, give us the money that you could use to feed yourself so that then we can feed you. It's creating this reliance loop upon them as an organization that stops people walking away.

Julia 1:43:01 So I can't remember his name, but Paul, one of the general authorities gave a talk in General Conference and he said essentially his message was very progressive, in my opinion. He was like, we have different programs that can make you not need the church. You shouldn't have to do that. And then they made him go back into the conference center, rerecord his talk with a cough track.

Kolby Reddish 1:43:22 You're talking about Ronald Pullman.

Julia 1:43:24 Pullman, yes. So yes, I'll leave links in the show notes. But they made him come back in and rerecord that part of his talk and edit those parts out so that no, you need the church. You have to be here. You can't separate yourself from this need that you have.

Nemo 1:43:40 But anyway, which is just a couple of real quick things. This always shocks me. People sometimes will relate the church to an abusive partner or these sorts things of. Of things. And you can see that the secure individual doesn't need to be needed. They want to be. You know, they put themselves in a position where they offer what they offer to the people around them and they don't need to be needed. The insecure individual. The church needs to be needed. They need to be needed by people. And so they create these mechanisms whereby people do become reliant on people need them. And that's how you can then exercise control, like being cynical in that respect. You can see how that's an effective approach to keep people reliant upon you as an institution. But that's not anything to do with bringing them closer to Christ. That's nothing to do with faith. That's nothing to do with building them up spiritually and everything to do with, for some reason just needing them to be in the buildings for the church's own sense of growth and achievement and whatever else it is. Because if they were truly focused on the that fact flourishing of individuals above all other things, then they wouldn't create these mechanisms whereby it has to go through them. They have to be a necessary part of this. They would say, well, however it works, whatever we can do or not do by stepping away, maybe there's too much pressure in the amount of callings we're giving you right now so we can relieve some of that pressure so you can flourish. Great. But they never do. It's always about, well, how can we be involved? And that. I think that's problematic.

Julia 1:45:11 Yeah.

Kolby Reddish 1:45:12 Yeah. It's interesting to me how often the contemporary church makes itself equivalent to Jesus and how often apologists make the church equivalent to Jesus instead of recognizing there is a difference there, that if you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, even if you, even if you believe that, even if you believe the church is what it purports to be, it still is a human organization. It is a corporation soul, like we talked about in the sec. Right. Like it is a lot of different things, but it isn't equivalent exactly to Jesus Christ. Even if you believe it's ultimately run by Jesus Christ. It isn't exactly the same thing unless

Nemo 1:45:50 you believe Kevin Hamilton, where he said, substitute the name of the church for Jesus Christ whenever you.

Julia 1:45:54 I was going to say the same church.

Nemo 1:45:56 Right.

Julia 1:45:56 I was going to say the same thing.

Nemo 1:45:57 So that absolutely bolsters your point there, Kolby. You've got leaders of the church who make this direct equivalence and say, no, in a sentence, you can change the name of the church for Jesus Christ. That's how you should think about these things.

Julia 1:46:09 Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so this next part, we've talked about this already in the SEC episode where the church changed the bottom language of the tithing slips. And what it used to say is, donations to the church's missionary fund become the property of the church to be used at the church's sole discretion in its missionary program. And then in 2012, it changed to say, though reasonable efforts will be made to use donations as designated, all donations become the church's property and will be used at the church's sole discretion to further the church's overall mission. So it, you know, the church's missionary fund, you know, we're going to use it however we want. Everything will be used how we. How we want.

Church Finances, Transparency, and Donor Rights

Nemo 1:46:50 The first one, I think, is it was an important caveat. And I think I. I think I know why it, to my mind, or from what I can work out, it seems to be that you've got members who are giving money to the missionary fund. And this is the church explaining, in essence, the way the missionary fund works and saying that money you give isn't necessarily going to go to your specific missionary. Right. This is not going to go to your specific boy out in the field. Because the way this works is we bring it all in so that those who are in more expensive areas can be given more money, and those who are in cheaper areas can be given less. And everyone gets sort of fairly standard.

Julia 1:47:24 So the missionary fund is staying in the missionary program because it's saying, yeah,

Nemo 1:47:28 it becomes the property of the church to be used at the church's sole discretion in its missionary program. So they're saying, we will divvy this money up within the missionary program, however, we need to. To make it work. And I feel like that's like a perfectly reasonable disclaimer to make. Yeah, yeah, understood. This is not going to go and support Jackson with two X's in his name out in wherever we've sent him, just because you, his mum, McKenzie, are giving this money to the church on a weekly basis. Right. It may go to someone else. So, yeah, I think that's a perfectly reasonable one. But then what they've changed it to, with similar wording to make it not sound too far off is like, no matter where you want this money to go, it's ours and we're going to use it however we want within our overall mission.

Julia 1:48:16 Yeah, yeah.

Kolby Reddish 1:48:17 And everything that comes before that comma, though reasonable efforts will be made. That's just a throwaway line. It's not enforceable in any way. In reality, it's taking the same ability. They wanted to treat all of the money inside of the missionary fund originally in the previous version of it, as fungible, to do that for all donations that the church receives. As far as. Because we did talk about this in the SEC Order episode we did recently. And as far as I can see, this change, which was made in 2012, seems to be prompted by lawsuits against other religious organizations for misuse of funds. It doesn't seem like it was caused by any, like, Mormon specific lawsuit, but that's the best I can see.

Nemo 1:49:04 And there was. There was articles like the Atlantic reported on the amount of money the church was bringing in in 2012. So the amount of money the church had starting to come onto the radar a little bit. And so that combined with other churches getting lawsuits may have made them just feel a bit twitchy. And for the need to put a disclaimer and say, we handle our money, however we handle our money, it's kind of none of your business once you hand it over. And there are members out there in my comment section right now who hold that view proudly. Once I give my money to church, it's up to them what they do with it. I don't care. I sat and talked to someone in person about this, I believe, member of the church who recognized me, and we sat and chatted for a bit and they were like, I just don't care. Whatever the church wants to do in my money is fine. Once I've paid it, I've paid it. I've done what I'm meant to do.

Julia 1:49:48 I had the same argument when I was an active member.

Kolby Reddish 1:49:51 The thing that's confusing to me about members who have that perspective, though, is like church leaders, like, including Gordon B. Hinckley did say that. Well, when he was asked on the. I think it was Larry King, right? He was asked about, like, well, why isn't the church more open about its finances? He said, like, well, we believe that that belongs to the people who made those contributions in the first place.

Nemo 1:50:10 It was the German news outlet.

Kolby Reddish 1:50:12 Yeah, German. Okay. I mean, he's the one who said that. That presumably the members of the church would have access to understanding where those funds go. So if those Personal individuals don't want to look into it further. I suppose that's absolutely their right. It's their money to do with what they want to. But I think it's pretty reasonable to hold the church to what President Hinckley said. Particularly since those are contributions that individuals have made. This is one of the things that irritates me anytime people talk about the church's money. Like the church doesn't really have any money. Even the money that it's made from what I would call its ill gotten gains in the stock market based on enzyme peak. All of that started with tithing funds in the first place. It was never church property to begin with. It was other people's money that they contributed, thinking that it was going to do one purpose. This is at least my view. And it went to entirely different purposes. Like we talked about from David Nielsen last episode,

Nemo 1:51:08 I absolutely believe that within the church website in your members account because yeah, sure. I don't think this information should necessarily be widely available to people outside of the church. Like it can go out. There's no need to keep it that secret. But they used to read it out at Conference 1959. It's the last time we saw it. We got the financial data and they listed out what went into missionary fund, what went into Relief Society. They just gave it out in numeric figures. That should be a tab accessible to members of the church with their church login on the website. Like here's the church's financial report for the year. Whatever that should just be there. There's no reason to hide that information that I can think of other than if they're acting like a business and saying well that's proprietary information. Yeah, but why are the members of your own church now being viewed as somehow competitors? Like what's that for a way of thinking?

Julia 1:52:00 Well, I have a question on this slide. So when the 7 billion, when it came out that the. The church was. Would make 7 billion. Does make 7 billion every year in tithing. What it's saying here is kind of like all this is in the same pool. Is that the number that the 7 billion, is it just tithing or is it all of this in the same bowl? Like I'm just confused by.

Kolby Reddish 1:52:21 No, the amount I think the 7 billion was specifically this is how much the church gains in tithing every year.

Julia 1:52:30 Even though it could be a very large amount with these.

Nemo 1:52:34 Even though the overall amount of money they bring in could be more because it's fast offerings in general. Machines. Yeah, right.

Julia 1:52:41 Yeah.

Nemo 1:52:41 So yeah, I think it's specifically tithing because actually, I think you'd be surprised the amount of members who don't put anything else in any of the other boxes. Like, fast offerings do happen, but it's small amounts comparative to the amount of tithing. But if you're like, I think that the primary number that gets dealt with all the time is tithing, that's the one that. Right.

Julia 1:53:01 I was just thinking about because, like my parents with 14 kids, they. They tried to give a generous fast offering and they every time you, you fast at the beginning of the month where you go without two meals and then you donate, you're supposed to donate all, although they're not going to kick you out of the temple for not doing it. But my parents would always try to give a generous fast offering. And so I just was thinking, I just was processing like. Or if people have missionaries going out and they want to give to that. I had family donate to the missionary fund because to help me, although, you know, the church. Anyway, I just was wondering what the, what do the rest of those numbers look like? But anyway, so. But going back. So you guys had mentioned this change in 2012 and the, the coming out about the amount of money that the church has. This is from LDS. This is an article published in August 15th. And they were talking about this, talks about the church's tiding slips. And they say that a change has been made to the language at the bottom of the slip explaining how funds will be used. The previous explanation said all donations to the church. So the missionary fund, it just breaks it down the way that we have already explained. And then it's quoting Scott Trotter, a spokesman for the church. He said that the changes of these changes. He said, we feel a sacred obligation to make sure that tithing and other donations made to the church are used prudently and wisely. The new language on the donation slips simply gives some flexibility to meet the changing needs of the growing global faith as circumstances require. What. What do you guys think? What?

Kolby Reddish 1:54:28 Well, I, in my definition of prudent and wise would be legally. And we talked about that issue last episode, so that's why I was chuckling.

Julia 1:54:38 Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Nemo 1:54:39 I chuckled. Because he says whenever they say it's simply. It always reminds me of when they said it's simply meant to indicate that we did not feel we were required to fill in that box.

Julia 1:54:49 Oh, yeah, right.

Nemo 1:54:50 It's this idea of like, it's simple simply to give us some wiggle room so we can do what we want. With your money.

Julia 1:54:56 Yeah.

Nemo 1:54:56 All right, cool. Well, that doesn't exactly engender trust or transparency. They're like, it gives us flexibility to do what we want.

Julia 1:55:05 Yeah.

Kolby Reddish 1:55:06 I was also struck, if you go back a few slides to the first one, I was also struck why everyone should have Grab bars is a important ad for LDS living. Like that is a very interesting demographical. Yeah, Very interesting demographical insight, I think, into who's reading LDS Living.

Nemo 1:55:31 Also, I'm surprised Deseret first hasn't been sued by the church for their intellectual property of looking like a missionary badge. Slightly, you know.

Julia 1:55:40 Oh, yeah.

Nemo 1:55:41 You can see what they're trying to do there clearly.

Julia 1:55:44 Yeah.

Kolby Reddish 1:55:45 I even see some light rays get in the comments.

Julia 1:55:50 For those of you just listening. There's. They're just talking about the ads that are on the LDS living. But also I just want to point out, just for Peggy Fletcher Sacks sake, she covered this story first. And on June 25th of 2012 and the salt Lake Tribune called and it is titled next Time Mormons Pay Tithing, They May Notice something New. And I just wanted to make sure I pointed out that she talked about this as well.

Nemo 1:56:11 Wasn't it a much simpler time when you could just write a headline like next Time Mormons Pay Tithing, they may Notice something new? I miss those days.

Julia 1:56:19 Oh, yeah.

Nemo 1:56:20 Next time members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Last Day Saints pay tithing, they may notice something new. Doesn't roll off the tongue the same way.

Julia 1:56:26 Oh, yeah. And I also, I, I do think that because, just because of the tithing slips previously were about the missionary fund, the age change for the missionaries happened in October of 2012. And so I wonder if they were anticipating, although I don't know if they. I just was curious if they were anticipating this change

Nemo 1:56:46 from elsewhere to pay for a larger missionary pool.

Julia 1:56:49 Yeah. So, like, if people are going to be donating, let's make a bigger pool.

Nemo 1:56:53 Yeah. But people are also going to be supporting kids or ward mission funds are going to be supporting kids. Like those kids aren't just being thrown into the mission pool without subsequent money attached to them. Right. So I think the amount they would be making unless, and we can't know this unless for some reason the church missionary program is running at a loss in the amount of money that people pay in and they get that money from elsewhere within their operational budgets. But we just can't know that.

Julia 1:57:20 Right.

Recap and Closing Reflections

Kolby Reddish 1:57:22 Well, Julia, I think so far this has been a really interesting examination of the history of tithing. So far today we've covered the scriptural history of tithing from the Old Testament to the New Testament to the Book of Mormon. And then we've looked at some church history, early church history, how tithing has been used in early church history accounts, and some interesting questions related to that. We're going to break this. Originally we were planning on covering all of this in one episode, but this is built out to be a much larger episode, I think, than we had originally planned on, because there's a lot of interesting things as we look at those contemporary uses of tithing and we start looking at those four different purposes that are given in the revelation regarding tithing for exactly what it should be used for. So we are going to go ahead and close today's episode as kind of our Part one on the history of tithing, and our next entry in the LDS discussion series will continue that discussion. Part two, where we look at again, more contemporary elements, where we look at some of those general conference quotes that Julia's compiled, as well as how each of those four reasons that tithing is given as a revelation in 1838, how the church basically deals with tithing regarding those four different usages. So before we wrap up today, I just have two quick requests. The first is that if you value this LDS discussion series and want to see it continue, please consider supporting Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. These episodes require substantial research and preparation, which Julia is always so great to do for us, and we compensate everyone involved in this project for that work. Your donations make it possible for us to keep producing this series. So please contribute if you're able to. We will not threaten you with robbing God if you don't. The second is we want your feedback, especially since we have kind of taken over, you know, reinvigorating this series with the three of us as our regular panelists at least. So please email any feedback you have on that approach to MormonStoriesMail.com or leave a comment here on YouTube. We'd love to hear what folks think. And as always, our goal is to build a broader group of people who can research and look into these issues. So let us know what works, what doesn't, and what you'd like to see in the future. As John always says, this will wrap up today's episode of Mormon Stories podcast, LDS Discussions Edition. Please be good to each other, be kind to each other, and stay tuned here and we'll see you again on another episode of Mormon Stories.

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