Where did Joseph get his ideas? w/ LDS Discussions Ep. 41

Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin 0:00 Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast, LDS Discussions Edition. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is March 10, 2023 and we are, I don't know, almost 40ish, plus or minus one or two episodes into the LDS discussion series where we join with our friend Mike and today with our friend Nemo to discuss a series of essays that have been published on the website ldsdiscussions.com our goal with this series that has been very popular and well received is to as dispassionately and as objectively and as evidence based as possible, analyze Mormon Church truth claims for people, specifically for people who are trying to honestly and earnestly look at the evidence and to decide for themselves what is and isn't true about the Mormon Church's truth claims. We are, like I said, are like 39 episodes in this point and I think this is going to be episode 40, give or take one or two. But today we are going to be covering where did Joseph Smith get his ideas? There's like different names we've been batting around for this episode. Where did Joseph Smith get his ideas? If it wasn't revelation from God or the origins of unique Mormon doctrines or Joseph Smith's Mixtape theory, but basically we're going to identify where Joseph Smith got his material. I just want to remind everybody that you can enjoy this LDS discussion series integrated into the Mormon Stories podcast feed or the YouTube feed. You can also enjoy this entire series independently broken out either on Spotify under the LDS Discussions brand in audio or video format or on Apple Podcast app broken out in its own audio format under the LDS Discussions brand. Or you can go to the YouTube playlist under Mormon Stories podcast and you can watch all these episodes in sequence. Please right now subscribe to Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. Also please subscribe to the Nemo the Mormon YouTube channel because Nemo's awesome. And yeah. Without any further ado, let's bring on our illustrious panel for today. We have with us Mike from LDS discussions dot com. Hey Mike.

Mike 2:17 Hey everybody. How's it going?

John Dehlin 2:18 Thanks for joining us.

Mike 2:20 Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin 2:21 And we've got Nemo the Mormon from the Nemo the Mormon YouTube channel. Hey, Nemo.

Nemo 2:25 Hi. Officially awesome according to John de Lin. Putting it on my headstone.

John Dehlin 2:29 Yeah. How's Daniel the taper back there behind you?

Mike 2:32 Daniel?

Nemo 2:33 Daniel is excellent. He is. He is a wonderful, wonderful horse.

The Waters Joseph Smith Was Swimming In

John Dehlin 2:38 All right, well, Mike, there is not an LDS Discussions essay for this topic and I'll give listeners viewers a disclaimer that a Lot of the material that we covered today we have discussed in bits and pieces throughout the past 40 episodes. But I think we decided that it would be really important in a single consolidated episode to just show, one by one, all the different, many different sources for Joseph Smith's most described, you know, unique contributions to Mormon doctrine and theology. And we're going to be covering some new material as well as. But I think that was how this episode came to be. Anything you want to add about that, Mike?

Mike 3:20 No. So we did an episode, I think, five or six ago, kind of going over the overview of Joseph Smith's translations, and it functioned in the same way as this one, which is to say that we're taking a lot of what we've done before and putting it in one episode to try to almost put a bow on all of these things we've been talking about. And so with the translations episode, it was like, okay, now let's look at all of his translation projects in one episode, and you can really see the patterns, especially given the fact that we spent a lot of time on each one individually. This episode is going to be similar. And we're trying to say, okay, let's look at all of the unique Mormon doctrines that Joseph Smith brought forward, whether it's. Whether you want to call it a restoration or just his own ideas, and try to see, is there a thread as to where they're coming from? And so, yeah, just to just jump right in that slide, it's the same thing. So some of this will be completely new and a lot of it will be recaps. And so when it's recaps, we're going to point out what episodes you can go back to for more info. But we figured this would be a really good way to look at everything under one umbrella, to kind of say, okay, do we see common threads? We see patterns here that give us insight into how Joseph Smith was coming up with these ideas, whether it's from God or from all sorts of sources around him.

John Dehlin 4:34 Yeah. And I think just for people who are searching on YouTube, I think it's just going to be handy for them to be able to see. Whoa. There's an episode that talks about the sources of Joseph Smith's inspiration and revelation. I'd like to learn about that. So that's kind of the value. One of the value adds for this episode. Nemo. Welcome to Mormon Stories. Anything you want to add to the introduction?

Nemo 4:56 Yeah, just to say that we often talk about the waters that Joseph was swimming in, and we talk about, you Know, he got this from here. This episode is those waters. This episode is the waters that Joseph was swimming in. So you finally understand just what the influences were that were around him.

John Dehlin 5:13 Yeah. And I think it makes sense to dive right in and talk about the Book of Mormon because the Book of Mormon really was Joseph Smith's first Mormon contribution, I think. But maybe Mike, you can correct us. So let's jump in and talk about the Book of Mormon.

Mike 5:27 No, you know, and we covered this. We had an entire episode. It's called, I think, the Book of Mormon and Surrounding Influences. And so it's a whole episode about this. But basically a lot of the themes of the Book of Mormon are very uniquely 19th century, whether they're concepts or events in Joseph Smith's life. So we talked about the mound builder myth, which is this idea that there was this ancient white superior race that lived here and this dark skinned kind of savage race killed them all off. And because of that, this European settlers were basically saying that this is our land, it was taken by these dark skinned savage Indians because they killed off the, you know, our ancestors who are white. And so that was a very big idea. We covered that in great detail. And yet the Book of Mormon reflects that idea pretty much throughout. That is a big theme that this dark skinned race is, you know, going to wipe out the white skinned race. And that's going to lead to of course, Joseph Smith's timeline. We talked about the extensive use of the King James Bible throughout the Book of Mormon along with New Testament material which obviously would not have been available to Lehi when he left with the brass plates. We talked about Joseph Smith Sr's dream becoming Lehi's dream in the Book of Mormon. We talked about, and I want to be careful here. I not plagiarism, but similar ideas and writing styles that you see in view of the Hebrews and the late war which happened to be reflected in the Book of Mormon because they're all being written around the same time in a milieu in a worldview that has a lot of these same burning questions.

John Dehlin 6:59 And Mike, I'm just going to add Sandra Tanner, I think identified like 12 books, something Sandra and Gerald tenor like at least 12 books written in the 10 years prior to Joseph Smith that also, you know, perpetrated the mound builder myth, dark skinned, light skin, Native Americans and the, and the dark skin killing off the light skinned. Like I think there's like at least 10 or 12 books that reflect the mound builder's myth and there's an entire book I Believe called the mound builder myth that talks about all of this in detail that we'll have Maven include in the show notes.

Mike 7:32 And Dan Vogel has written about this extensively. I think his man I wish remember the name of something like Indian origins in the Book of Mormon or something like that. So Dan Vogel's written a ton about it. And we, in our episode on the surrounding influences, we talked about it. This was not an idea that was unique to say, like some rural area of Palmyra. This was something that was talked about by people all over the, you know, the early part of our country, obviously, and really high up because it was this idea that these Indian burial mounds were these old like, fortifications and other things that because they didn't think that the. The Native Americans could do anything sophisticated. So we effectively created their origin story so that we could steal, you know, steal the land from them and do so with a. A mythical justification. And so, yeah, it's a one more thing.

John Dehlin 8:21 And I'll add that I think the Solomon Spalding manuscripts, even the one that has never been found, but maybe even the one that has, they also reflect the mound builder mythology. And then I also want to add, we recently interviewed Randy Bell that focused on the Dartmouth connection with Hyrum Smith and Joseph Smith that kind of traces all of these people, including Ethan Smith, of view of the Hebrews, Solomon Spalding and Joseph Smith through Hyrum, all to a set of teachings, Arminianism, I think it was called Dartmouth Arminianism, that sort of would be a major perpetuator of, of. Of these sorts of teachings and theories coming out of an Ivy League school in the early 1900s that Joseph's brother Hyrum literally attended. So I just, I just want to include all that.

Mike 9:13 No. And it's true. And those are all things that are going to be reflected in the Book of Mormon. And so when we did that episode, I thought it was really important because a lot of people will say, well, the Book of Mormon is so unexplainable. They talk about this and this and this. But then when you really break it down, you look at the themes that are in there and you look at the ideas, the Christology, all of those things are very much based in the 19th century. It's why you have Richard Bushman say it has to be read through the mindset of the 19th century, because it has too much 19th century work in it to be reflected in any other time. Dan McClellan, who is a former employee of the church who runs a really cool TikTok Channel where he talks about biblical scholarship. He has said the same thing. He's a believing member. But he will say the Book of Mormon has to be understood in a 19th century context. And so that is because these surrounding influences are in there. And these surrounding influences would not have been available during the Book of Mormon times because they simply were not invented yet. Whether you're talking about the mound builder myth or obviously Joseph Smith's father's dream, or the Charles Anton visit, which we talked about a few episodes ago, all of those things work their way into a text that is purportedly ancient, and yet we know that they happen long after.

Book of Mormon Sermons and Revival Preaching

John Dehlin 10:20 Yeah. Did you get that last bullet on the slide, the sermons?

Mike 10:23 No, I didn't mention that. And that's actually a good one to mention because this is one. William Davis has a book, he's done an episode with Mormon stories. It's amazing. And he does it about basically how Joseph Smith could have dictated the Book of Mormon. And he does it in a way that's not, you know, overly antagonistic. I think it's a way that believers could read it and those who have left can read it and, you know, both come to, you know, the same conclusion about what he's saying without maybe taking it as a church is true or false. And so the point is that if you look at the sermons that are being given in Joseph's hometown and milieu around the time of the Book of Mormon, not only are the speaking styles similar to how they're given in the Book of Mormon, but also kind of the descriptions of the meetings, like people fainting and all that. And the talking in heads is super important because William Davis in his book talks about how when they're giving long sermons back then they would almost write like a bunch of bullet points and then expound on those as they're giving these long hours, long sermons. And in the Book of Mormon, they actually do talk about how they spoke in heads. And so that's a really important element as well.

John Dehlin 11:29 And I'll just add for our show notes, we're just giving people a million references. But for me, Grant Palmer and his book An Insider's View of Mormon Origins does a great accounting. In my original interview with Grant Palmer, back in episodes, I don't know, the first 30 episodes of Mormon Stories, we talk about his book, An Insider's View, where he spends a whole chapter laying out Protestant sermons from. From Protestant ministers that would have been preaching in the burned over district in upstate New York during the time that Joseph Smith was a young Kid. And lo and behold, he's able to show how phrases from sermons given by Protestant ministers in upstate New York in the early 1800s and in many ways are almost identical to sermons by Alma, sermons by Helaman, sermons by others. And it does beg the question, why are Protestant Christian 19th century sermons being given by Native Americans before Jesus is ever born? That just strains any credulity. And it's Grant Palmer's amazing book, an Insider's View of Mormon Origins, and his interview on Mormon stories that really helped solidify that for me. So it's not just the laying down of heads, as William David said, it's the content intent of these Protestant sermons that Joseph Smith would have drawn from, to. To put into the mouths almost as pseudepigrapha of. Of the Book of Mormon prophets like Helaman and Alma, etc. Right, Right, Mike?

Mike 13:08 Yeah, I think that's a fair way to look at. I mean, like. And that's one of those things when you hear people talk about the Book of Mormon has these amazing sermons and it's like, well, if you put them in the context of the 19th century, they're not that amazing because they're ideas that are being talked about at the time. And so, yeah, it's. Everything in the Book of Mormon is coming from the 19th century, and the sermons are a part of that. And it's one of those things where when people say Joseph Smith could have never written it, my response is always, no one else but Joseph Smith could have written it. Because as we talked about in those earlier episodes, everything points to Joseph Smith as the author of the Book of Mormon. And as you just mentioned in that time frame, because of the way those sermons are being utilized in an ancient text with language and ideas from the 19th century.

John Dehlin 13:50 All right, Nemo, anything you want to add to the Book of Mormon?

Nemo 13:53 Just to tell people to have a read of the late war and view of the Hebrews, it is definitely worth reading them for yourself. Don't just take our word for it that they are stylistically similar and that they include similar concepts. Have a look at them and I think you'll find the language quite familiar.

John Dehlin 14:09 Yeah, and Mike, I stole your thunder because the very next slide is entitled Book of Mormon Sermons and Revival Sermons. Go ahead and cover what I missed.

Mike 14:18 No, and that's okay, because we were actually, you know, doing. Looking what Graham Palmer had worked on. And it's just. It's an image. Excuse my dogs.

John Dehlin 14:25 No worries. Just keep going.

Mike 14:26 It's an image that goes through what is being talked about in Palmyra, New York, in June of 1826 versus what is in the Book of Mormon in 1828. And if you look at it, of course, Graham Palmer is framing this almost as if this is definitely a bullseye to what Joseph is using. But the general themes you have. Methodist preachers versus King Benjamin. A speaker upon a tower with tents pitched around about speaker upon a tower with tents pitched roundabout. Man being in a feeble condition. Feeble condition. Powerful farewell discourse. Powerful farewell discourse. Expresses love for the people. The people fall to the ground and commit to Christ. And all of these things are very common in these sermons being given in this, you know, second Great Awakening that just happened to be in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin 15:13 And.

Mike 15:13 And so when you look at the sermons in the Book of Mormon, you have to understand these ideas are not unique. They are coming directly out of Joseph Smith's, you know, literally almost out of his backyard.

John Dehlin 15:23 And, Mike, I think your dog feels very passionately about Grant Palmer's comparisons here. I didn't realize he was so educated in Mormon history.

Nemo 15:31 He has good taste in scholarship.

Mike 15:33 Yeah, apparently. I don't know what. I don't know what they're seeing that's angering them, but, yeah, they're. They're feisty today.

John Dehlin 15:38 Well, maybe. Maybe he's giving a shout out to Grant Palmer and his important contributions to Mormon stories. And. And maybe your dog just is. Is giving Grant Palmer some love. I think that's a reasonable interpretation.

Mike 15:53 Yeah, it could be. Now they're. Now they're angry at each other, so I guess that's a little bit better.

John Dehlin 15:58 Okay, well, we've referenced William Davis's great work, but we have actually a slide that. That recovers that as well. So let's go to the laying down of heads in the Book of Mormon.

Mike 16:08 Yeah, and this is one. Like I said, his book is called Visions in a seer Stone. And Dr. William Davis discusses how Joseph Smith likely used Methodist preaching techniques of laying down heads while creating the long sermons. Because you got to remember, the Book of Mormon is being done with Joseph Smith dictating the text to a scribe. And so it's very similar in the style of the way they would be doing these sermons. And so Joseph Smith would have a general idea of what he wanted to say, what part of the story he wanted to tell, and then from there, he could use those heads to create the meat of the story. So it's almost like if you ever go to a live music concert, you'll sometimes see they have a set list on stage and the set list is just the short songs written down. And then all of a sudden they can create this two and a half hour concert by looking at this one small sheet of paper. And this is somewhat similar in that these preachers could look at the sheet of paper and have maybe some Bible verses written down or some themes written down, and then they could weave their theology and expand off of these little bit little lists of notes they have. And the Book of Mormon tells us that it's using the same style, which is a very common style in these sermons in the 19th century in the Book of Mormon. Because in Jacob 1, 4, Nephi gives Jacob explicit instructions on preaching that, and this is other than references to plates could easily have been inserted into the Pages of a 19th century sermon composition manual because it says if there were preaching which was sacred or revelation which was great, or prophesying that I, Jacob, should engraven the heads of them upon these plates and touch upon them as much as it were possible. So basically what he's saying is I would write the heads of the sermons down on these plates and then we could expand upon them later. And that's exactly what they did when giving sermons in the 19th century.

John Dehlin 17:52 And that's a very quick overview of William Davis's great work. We'll just refer you to either his book again, Visions in a Seer Stone, or the Mormon Stories podcast episode that goes into that more in depth. But it, yeah, so it not only explains a lot of the content of the Book of Mormon, but also the method that Joseph Smith likely used to dictate the Book of Mormon to his scribes. All right, Nemo, any, any quick input before we go on to Alexander Campbell?

Nemo 18:22 I think listeners of this episode should pay attention to all the references and scholars that are mentioned and I think we should try and see if we can spot one that John de Lynn hasn't had on his podcast. You may be hard pressed, but it will make sure you pay attention.

John Dehlin 18:34 Yeah, thanks Nemo. And Maven's fingers are on fire, adding to the show notes all the links to the references. But don't take our word for it. If you want to know what a, a Protestant, a super informed, super educated contemporary of Joseph Smith, who knew, you know, Protestant sermons better than probably anyone in the early 19th century. Don't take our word for it. Take Alexander Campbell's word for it, who was a mentor, as I understand it, to Sidney Rigdon. Let's go ahead and see what Alexander Campbell wrote about the Book of Mormon.

Mike 19:12 And so this is Alexander Campbell basically summarizing what he sees in the Book of Mormon. And I don't know if Nemo or John want to read this quote, because I. One of the most important quotes you're going to see, especially given that it's very contemporaneous to when the Book of Mormon is released.

John Dehlin 19:25 I'm sure Alexander Campbell sounded more like Nemo than me. So we'll give it to you. Nemo.

Nemo 19:29 Okay, cool. Can I get that on screen?

John Dehlin 19:32 Yep. Here's Alexander Campbell describing the Book of Mormon.

Nemo 19:35 This prophet Smith, through his stone spectacles, wrote on the plates of Nephi in his Book of Mormon every error and almost every truth discussed. In New York for the last 10 years. He decided all the great controversies, infant baptism, ordination, the Trinity, regeneration, repentance, justification, the fall of man, the atonement, transubstantiation, fasting, penance, church government, religious experience, the call to the ministry, the general resurrection, eternal punishment, who may baptize, and even the questions of freemasonry, Republican government, and the rights of man.

John Dehlin 20:17 Yeah, that's just so, to me, that's so devastating that, you know, you think about it, the Book of Mormon is supposed to cover a thousand years of history. You would think that the, you know, that the prophets of the Book of Mormon are writing about the things that they care most about in Mesoamerica, in North America, in South America, from 600 B.C. to 400 A.D. they're going to be writing about their day. And instead they're not just writing about Jesus before Jesus was born. They're not just writing about baptism and the Holy Ghost before Christianity had even been invented, before Jesus had even been given his name. You know, he's actually talking about, you know, the Book of Mormon is actually talking about 19th century, early 19th century Protestant controversies and Catholic Protestant controversies. This is literally, I think, one of the most devastating passages to all of, of the Book of Mormon. And I hope I'm not overstating that. Mike, what do you want to add?

Mike 21:24 You know, the only thing I would add is just that what I find kind of cool about this quote in this episode is that this quote really only reflects the Book of Mormon. So what Alexander Campbell is saying is that when you look at the Book of Mormon, everything in there is a reflection of the hot topics of the day. And now we're going to look at all of the unique things that Joseph Smith brings forth after the Book of Mormon. And I guess to Nemo's challenge earlier about giving the listeners some listen for as we go through this. Think about this quote and think of how all of the things after the Book of Mormon would still fit into that quote, because they're all going to address things that were happening around Joseph Smith.

Nemo 21:59 Yeah. And I just want to say that this links to that idea of backdating prophecy, that this quote here actually gives a lot of credence to the claim that was made that the Book of Mormon was written for our day. The problem is that claim only applies to the people that lived in Joseph Smith's time, because then after that, the Book of Mormon doesn't speak to the issues of our day, those of us reading it now. So the promise that it speaks to our day is fulfillable because Joseph Smith lived at that time. It goes back to those concepts of backdating prophets prophecy that you can look at in the earlier episodes.

Mike 22:33 Yeah, that's a good point.

John Dehlin 22:34 And we've also noted, why doesn't the Book of Mormon have, you know, three degrees of glory is, you know, the endowment ceremony, celestial marriage, baptism for the dead, polygamy. Right. And it's obviously because Joseph Smith came up with those doctrinal ideas later. We're about to identify. Identify the sources for many of those things, word of wisdom included. And of course, none of that appears in the Book of Mormon because Joseph Smith hadn't either been exposed to those ideas yet, or he hadn't learned about them or thought about them or wanted to incorporate them into his religion. Okay, let's go to the next slide. Which is Joseph Smith's first vision. Surely that's original and unique, Mike.

Parallel Accounts of the First Vision

Mike 23:14 Yeah, and so we talked about this at length in our first vision episode, but Joseph Smith, as we talked about, never told anyone about the first vision for at least 12 years following the supposed event. And there were a lot of stories reported during this time of visionary experiences that were remarkably similar to Joseph's. And so when I took the missionary discussions, the first vision was presented to me as a singular, unique event that only Joseph Smith experienced, and it led to the creation of the church. And what I want to do in this episode, because, like I said, you can watch the first vision episode to get a whole lot more detail, but to look at a few of the contemporary accounts that were given before Joseph gives his. Because it is important to note that not only were these visionary experiences very common during this time and during his place, but that Richard Bushman, who is, excuse me, a believing patriarch of the Mormon church and historian, he wrote that he located 32 pamphlets that relate visionary experiences published in the United States between 1783 and 1815, and all but seven of them were experienced after 1776. And so what he's basically saying here is that he's locating dozens, three, dozens of experiences that would reflect what Joseph Smith claims in the first vision. And they're all happening in. In the United States, all around Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin 24:35 Nemo.

Nemo 24:36 It's just it. When you discover that it was so prominent, all of a sudden, it takes away a lot of its impact, and it takes away a lot of the. The kind of the glorification that you can make of it, because all of a sudden everyone was at it and you just realized that, okay, well, we believed him, but why didn't we believe others? And that. That goes for spiritual experiences more broadly. You know why my spiritual experience is. Right, but the spiritual experiences of people in other religions. Not correct, for example. Yeah, it's just about who you choose to believe.

Mike 25:06 Yeah. Yeah, it is.

John Dehlin 25:08 All right, so should we go to the first example, Mike?

Mike 25:11 Yeah, and I think that we got three examples to read, and I think when you listen to them, it'll sound an awful lot like you're hearing Joseph Smith's first vision account.

John Dehlin 25:18 Okay, so let's go to the 1815 first vision of Norris Stearns.

Mike 25:24 All right, do John or Nemo want to read this? Or do you want me to read it?

John Dehlin 25:26 Do I get to. Do I get to read one Nemo.

Nemo 25:28 Go on, John, go on.

Mike 25:29 This one's all you. You get the long one.

John Dehlin 25:31 Here we go. Norris Stearns, 1815. So this would be 17 years before Joseph Smith actually publishes his first account of the first vision. Correct?

Nemo 25:42 Correct. Correctamundo.

John Dehlin 25:44 Here we go. At length, as I lay apparently upon the brink of eternal woe, seeing nothing but death before me, suddenly there came a sweet flow of the love of God to my soul, which gradually increased at the same time. This is sounding Book of Mormon is too, by the way. At the same time there appeared a small gleam of light in the room above the brightness of the sun, then at his meridian, which grew brighter and brighter. At length, being in an ecstasy of joy, I turned to the other side of the bed. Whether in the body or out, I cannot tell. God knoweth. That sounds familiar. There I saw two spirits, which I knew at the first sight. But if I had the tongue of an angel, I could not describe their glory, for they brought the joys of heaven with them. One was God, my maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were, a flame of fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a cloud in looking steadfastly to discern features, could see none but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ, my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man. His face was not ablaze, but had a countenance of fire being bright and shining. His father's will appeared to be his. All was his condescension, peace and love. And again, that's Norris Stearns. And I'm just going to add, maybe that would be something that would influence more the 1838 account of the first vision, because there's two personages, although there still are things that could be associated with the 1832 account and some of the others. But yes, I see a lot of Mormonism in there. How about you, Nemo?

Nemo 27:35 Yeah, you see a lot of the common themes of countenances ablaze, the brightness beyond description. You know, the two spirits. Yeah.

John Dehlin 27:47 There are versions of the first vision that talk about flames of fire, a

Nemo 27:51 light that becomes gradually brighter and brighter above. Above the brightness of the sun. Why is that not in yellow? That is the. The most Mormon of.

Mike 27:59 Yeah, that's true. That's true.

John Dehlin 28:00 Come on, Mike. It's almost like you weren't raised Mormon or something.

Mike 28:03 Yeah, I guess that's just it. I didn't catch that one. Yeah, it's funny how that works.

John Dehlin 28:06 Anyway, that's why we've got Nemo here. Nemo catches all. We should have a. We should have a meme that says Nemo catches all.

Nemo 28:15 We should.

John Dehlin 28:15 All right, get on.

Mike 28:17 There you go.

John Dehlin 28:18 Okay, so that's Nora. I think that checks out as pretty. Pretty significantly similar to Joseph Smith's first vision accounts. Let's go to the next one, which is Asa Wild's first vision experience.

Mike 28:32 And this one is interesting because this is published in 1823. So this is right when Joseph Smith is starting to claim to have, well, this way. Claims the first vision. It's also when he's in the middle of claiming the gold plates are out there with Tre. He's doing treasure digging. This is published in the Wayne Sentinel in its. Joseph Smith's hometown paper. So this would be like, you know, something being published like say, in the Salt Lake Tribune that all of a sudden, a few years later, Russell Nelson is going to say happened to him. And so this is a. A shorter one. I'll read this one. I'll give Nemo the last one. So this is Asa Wild, October 1823, in Palmyra, saying, it seemed as if my mind was struck motionless as well as into nothing before the awful and glorious majesty of the great Jehovah. He then spake. He also told me that every denomination of professing Christians had become extremely corrupt. And so that is in Joseph Smith's backyard, right as he's starting to work on this story of the gold plates and he's doing treasure digging. And it's. It's amazing how this idea of all of the churches being corrupt is already in his milieu. And you can't deny it because it's literally happening right around him.

John Dehlin 29:42 And that becomes one of his first revelations in the book of Commandments that ends up in the Doctrine and Covenants that it's the what? The one true. The only true church, the only true living church. That God is pleased and that all other creeds are corrupt. Right. Not original, Nemo.

Nemo 29:58 Not original. And I wonder whether Joseph Smith was actually bothered by other people having these visions at the same time or whether he almost leant into it as further credence that he could have one too. And it was just then up to him to try and make his the most important and get people to follow him because of his. But the idea that other people were having them maybe didn't bother him and maybe that's why he didn't see it as a problem, that there was one published in the newspaper. He either thought people wouldn't remember when he published in 1832, or perhaps he thought that, you know, that that would lend some credence to him doing it.

John Dehlin 30:32 Yeah, there's this idea. I think it was the. The British geneticist.

Nemo 30:40 It must be good then.

John Dehlin 30:42 It's one of the horsemen of the Apocalypse. Michael Shermer, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens. Christopher Hitchens, the hitch, yeah. You know, he talks about this idea of a meme, you know, just.

Nemo 30:53 Oh, is that not Dawkins? Is that Dawkins that talks about meme theory?

John Dehlin 30:56 Dawkins. You're right, it's Dawkins. Thank you. Thank you for correcting me. So, yeah, Richard Dawkins talks about memes and he talks about an idea permeates society and then it gets replicated. Just like Joseph Smith learned about the meme of a, of a peep stone that can find buried treasure. The fact that, that there would have been other people in his surrounding area that used peep stones to find buried treasure, that would have been seen as an asset, not a liability to Joseph then saying, me too. I've got this ability. I think, to your point, Nemo, lots of other people saying that Jesus and God visited Them would be a meme or an asset that then Joseph could build upon.

Nemo 31:37 And say again, with lots of other people opining about the true nature of the Native Americans, about these mounds, about all these things that we saw in his zeitgeist, those memes that are circulating are actually useful to him because he can then profit answers for them.

John Dehlin 31:53 Yep.

Nemo 31:54 Yeah.

Mike 31:54 Yeah, I think that's perfect, because he. It gives him an opening. And I think, to your point, I don't think he'd be bothered about them being in the newspapers, because at that point, he's developing his theology, and he's able to use those to kind of craft the message he wants with having these surrounding ideas to pull from. And the one other small note I'll make is that we often hear the story about how Joseph Smith talks about having. He talks to the. The Methodist minister, right? And he's kind of rebuked for saying he had a vision. And a lot of people. Dan Vogel talks about this like, he wouldn't have been rebuked because they were so common that it wouldn't have gotten anyone's attention. It would be like, you know. You know, if you have like 40 people in your town saying that they found a, you know, special kind of tree, and the 41st one says that they're gonna be like, okay, cool. You know, everyone else is doing it. Why wouldn't you. It wouldn't be like, how dare you say that? Because these. These visions are all over the place. So it actually makes the story that is told in the church of Joseph Smith kind of being, like, rebuked by this Methodist minister for saying he had a vision even more ridiculous when you understand how common it was at the time.

Nemo 32:57 Yeah. And I think the only reason he added that rebuke was so that. That would. That's what gives credence to his story, because he can imply that the other religionists were so disturbed by what he was saying, therefore there must be something in it that is disturbing them, whereas all these other people have been saying it and they're not being rebuked. So mine must be the special one.

John Dehlin 33:16 One.

Mike 33:16 And it also gave him a little bit of an opening because of the fact that he tells nobody about this for decades. So people like, why didn't you tell anyone you saw God and Jesus? He's like, well, I told one person I was rebuked. So I kind of kept my mouth shut. Didn't tell my mom, didn't tell my dad, didn't tell my brothers, didn't tell any of the early church leaders didn't tell the witnesses. As we talked about in that episode.

Nemo 33:34 It.

Mike 33:34 It gives him a little bit of a opening to say, I was too afraid to talk about it, which, as we're saying, is ridiculous because it's such a common experience, and it would have

John Dehlin 33:43 been so defining, you know?

Mike 33:45 Yeah.

John Dehlin 33:45 All right, let's go to the third, which is Solomon Chamberlain's visionary experience. Nemo, is that yours?

Nemo 33:51 Okay. Yeah. Dissatisfied with the religions he had tried, Chamberlain prayed for further guidance. And in 1816, according to his account, the Lord revealed to me in a vision of the night, an angel whom Chamberlain asked about the right way. The angel told him that the churches were corrupt and that God would soon raise up an apostolic church. Chamberlain printed up an account of his visions and was still distributing them and looking for the apostolic church when he stopped in Palmyra.

John Dehlin 34:25 Yeah. All right, Mike, what'd you want us to grab from that?

Mike 34:29 Just the fact that Chamberlain goes to Palmyra with these pamphlets, meets in Joseph Smith's home, gives him one of the pamphlets in 1829, and then a few years later, Joseph Smith is going to write his first First Vision account, and it's going to have a lot of these themes in it.

John Dehlin 34:44 Yeah, yeah. And I'll just say, as we kind of close out this segment that we've just scratched the surface of, of all the different, you know, visitations from God or Jesus accounts that happened within the 10 years of Joseph Smith talking about his first vision. And I would even say, Mike, that there are others that even resemble more the Joseph Smith's various accounts of the first vision more than even the ones we've shown, and so don't trust us for it. You know, Google Joseph Smith first visions, you know, other examples. We'll see if Maven can find a link or two. I'm guessing that Mormon think, you know, CES Letter or Letter for My Wife. Those are three great resources. And also the. The First Vision essay that would be on the Mormon Stories website, because all of those resources, ces. I'll say them again. CES Letter, Mormon Think Letter for My Wife, and the Truth Claims essays on the Mormon Stories podcast. They're all a page. They're all going to have long essays on the first vision that are going to give even more examples than the ones that we've covered.

Mike 35:57 So those are good documents in our. We covered more in our episode on the First Vision LDS discussions. The First Vision overview topic has more. So I mean, we just picked three just because we're kind of going quickly in these. But, yeah, there's dozens. And not every one of them is going to have these direct comparisons to Joseph Smith, but a lot of them do. A lot of them have themes. A lot of them have very specific language which we showed in those. Those three. So, yeah, by all means, go read all of them to get an understanding of how common this was and how in Joseph Smith's milieu, a lot of people were having these similar ideas and these similar experiences.

Origins of the Priesthood Restoration

John Dehlin 36:27 All right, well, surely the next topic. The priesthood restoration, surely that was Joseph Smith's idea, Mike.

Mike 36:35 Yeah, and this is one that we covered in much greater detail in our episode on the priesthood restoration. But as we talked about, Joseph Smith is going to introduce the idea of a Melchizedek priesthood only after Sidney Rigdon joins the church as a Campbellite. As we mentioned, he was under Alexander Campbell. Rigdon was familiar with the idea of a higher Melchizedek priesthood, which is going to be later integrated into the church years after it was claimed to have been restored by Peter, James, and John. And while the Mormon Church's history tells us the Melchizedek priesthood was restored in 1829, the actual timeline of the priesthood restoration tells us it was a retrofitted and altered account. And so the church's website has this account. It says, May of 1829, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery received the Melchizedek priesthood from Peter, James and John near the Susquehanna river between Harmony, Pennsylvania and Colesville, New York. That's all they say because they don't have an exact date. And if we go maybe on that one, we just go right to the next slide, actually.

John Dehlin 37:33 Okay, let's do it. Yeah.

Mike 37:35 So we covered this in detail.

Nemo 37:38 I just want to say that's really sus. It's really suspicious that they can give us the exact date of May 15, 1829, for the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood. But not only was it added years later, the Melchizedek priesthood, they can't even give us an exact date, which we do have an exact date for the other priesthood. I think that's just worth noting.

John Dehlin 37:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We cover that quite a bit in our episode on the priesthood restoration. Yeah, good point, Nemo. Okay, and should we go to the next slide?

Mike 38:06 Yeah, so we don't. We don't need to, like, go over this timeline in the same detail we did in the first one, but if we go to that slide, we'll just point out a few things that are happening. So in 1827, the Disciples of Christ, which is A religion that influences a lot of early members of the Mormon Church because they're going to be converted to the Mormon Church. And it's influenced by Alexander Crawford. It talks about the ex. The existence of two delineated three distinct priesthood, a patriarchal priesthood, which is called also after the order of Melchizedek, an ironical priesthood which is held by Aaron, and then a priesthood that's held only by Jesus Christ. And so Crawford regarded Melchizedek as a greater priest than Abraham, because in the Bible, there's the citation that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. And according to Crawford, Melchizedek was one of the key players kind of in the order of, like, the priesthood. And so Crawford considers the patriarchal priesthood and the ironical priesthoods as branches of the Levitical priesthood. And long story short, Alexander Campbell, who we've mentioned already, who Sydney Rick is going to come from, taught this understanding of the priesthood to many of his followers who will become part. Who became part of the Mormonite community and contributed or continued to believe the same doctrine. And that's from BYU studies. So they're explaining kind of how this Melchizedek priesthood idea was taught by the Campbellites and then magically appears in Mormonism. So even BYU studies is going to admit this is being. Going to be taught in 1827 before. Even before you can even claim it was restored by Joseph Smith. It's already being taught by the Campbellites in. In terms that do not appear in Mormonism until years later.

John Dehlin 39:47 And I like how you have a timeline that just kind of lays it all out. And I was going to ramble about that, but let's just go to the timeline.

Nemo 39:53 Yeah.

Mike 39:54 And so, like, we did this in so much more detail in our episode, but then. So we. That was 1827, as we talked about. May of 1829 is when the church is going to say, Joseph Smith receives the Melchizedek priesthood by Peter, James and John. November of 1830, Sidney Rigdon is baptized into the church.

John Dehlin 40:10 Can I just jump in there?

Mike 40:11 Book of Mormon is published.

John Dehlin 40:13 Book of Mormon is published, not mentioning Melchizedek priesthood. Can I add that to the timeline?

Mike 40:19 That was one of the things when we did our episode. It mentions Melchizedek and it talks about him being a high priest. It does not mention, though, that we can get a secondary Melchizedek priesthood.

John Dehlin 40:27 So it does mention and Book of Commandments, you know. Yeah, yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there.

Mike 40:31 Okay, well, yeah, because just. Just clarify the Book of Mormon is going to reference, I think it's Hebrews 13 or Hebrews. It's going to pull that from the Bible, which mentions Melchizedek. So it is in the Book of Mormon because it's pulling from the Bible, but it does not create a Melchizedek priesthood in the Book of Mormon. And as you said, it's also not in the Book of Commandments. So absolutely, just wanted to get that out of the way. So, yeah, November 1830, Sidney Rigdon is baptized. And then in June of 1831, the high priesthood is established for the first time. And Joseph Smith is recorded to being ordained to the high priesthood in 1831, which as we've talked about, is highly problematic given that the Church claims It happened in 1829. In 1833, the Book of Commandments is released. It has no mention of Aaronic or melchizedek priesthood. In 1835, Joseph Smith alters revelations to fit Oliver Cowdery's 1834 letter that first introduces the idea of an angelic ordination of the priesthood. And that is really important because right after that Oliver Cowdery is going to be elevated to the second highest in the church. So as we talked about in our episode, it appears in that instance that Oliver Cowdery was willing to lie for Joseph to bolster his credibility. Joseph rewarded him by elevating him to the second in the church. And David Whitmer wrote an address to all believers in Christ later on in his life and he discusses this in great detail. So I don't know if John or Nemo wants to read this quote because this is another important quote to understanding the priesthood restoration.

John Dehlin 41:57 I'll read this one. So it says this matter of the two orders of priesthood in the Church of Christ and lineal priesthood of the old law being in the church, all originated in the mind of Sidney Rigdon. He explained these things to Brother Joseph in his way out of the old scriptures and got Brother Joseph to inquire, etc. He would inquire and as mouthpiece speak out of the revelations just as they had it fixed up in their hearts. This is the way the high priest and the quote, priesthood, close quote, as you have it, was introduced into the Church of Christ almost two years after its beginning and after we had baptized and confirmed about 2,000 souls into the church. And again, this is not just some random rank and file member of the Church. This is one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, David Whitmer in his address to all believers in Christ. And so if you're going to believe the Book of Mormon witnesses. You got to say, you got to believe him when he says this. This, this Melchizedek priesthood thing came from Sidney Rigdon, you know, and through Joseph, I think, you know, through the Campbellites and not through God to Joseph. I mean, I think that's fair.

Nemo 43:13 That's fair. And I think you could totally. You could also say that if that were in isolation, you could almost take a faithful approach to say, okay, well, this principle was explained to Joseph by one of his followers who joined his church. And Joseph found truth from somewhere else through this follower, took it to God. God confirmed that this was indeed to be part of his church. That's how he discovered it. And then that was given to them. The problem is he'd. They've already made claims that it was restored to him in May of 1829, which is before Sidney Rigdon will have introduced it to him. There's your problem, because you. You could take the other thing and make it work, but the two things can't work together.

John Dehlin 43:54 That's important. And what you're touching on is, is what Terrell Givens, Mormon apologist and Maxwell Institute leader, right now, is trying to do in 2023, which is to call Joseph Smith an inspired syncretist, or as engaging in bricolage, or as a sponge. These are all kind of highbrow intellectual arguments to counter the idea that Joseph Smith was getting this from people around him and just making stuff up and mixing it together. Thus the mixtape label in this episode. You know, it's a fancy way of trying to explain away the idea that he's just. He's just plagiarizing, copying and pasting things he's getting from around him and importing them in. And to your point, Nemo, backdating revelations and prophecies to kind of COVID his tracks. And that's where it goes from, you know, plagiarism to fraud. Right. It's one thing to just steal other people's ideas. It's another thing to change documents to cover your tracks and try and rewrite history. That's a problem.

Nemo 45:04 The inspired syncretist argument or the bricolage argument, they do have legs. And that's how a lot of apologists works. It takes what appears on the surface to be a reasonable argument, but applies it to a situation to which the argument cannot apply. Because if Joseph Smith was open and honest about having taken all these influences from around him and never tried to make claims that he was given them directly by God, then you Could. You could choose to believe in a church that was founded by a prophet who got loads of ideas for everyone around him, and he was the one that could put it all together and make it work. You could believe in that. Terrell Givens is trying to sell you that. But it doesn't work with Joseph Smith's own claims of God having given him these things directly and then being all his idea and no one else's. That's the problem.

John Dehlin 45:45 Right?

Nemo 45:45 Yeah, as I see it.

John Dehlin 45:47 All right, well, Mike, should we go to the next one? Joseph Smith translation of the Bible?

Mike 45:51 Yeah, we can go to the next one.

The Joseph Smith Translation and the Book of Enoch

John Dehlin 45:52 All right.

Mike 45:53 And this one we talked about in our previous episode about Joseph Smith's translation, so we don't have to hit this too hard, but Joseph Smith provides a revelatory translation of the King James Bible shortly after he finishes with the Book of Mormon. And so, as we talked about, there's this BYU study by Hayley Wilson Lamond. And when she's doing this, she uncovers evidence that Joseph Smith and his associates were using a readily available Bible commentary while compiling a new Bible translation, or more properly, a revision of the King James Bible. And she goes on to say that basically, Joseph Smith is using the Adam Clark Bible commentaries to revise the King James Bible, and in doing so, is pulling not just like one or two words, but pulling phrases and chunks of text throughout, I think more in the Old Testament, not in the New Testament, into this, his revision of the Bible. And so the parallels are so strong that you can no longer say it's just a coincidence. And it, again shows you that Joseph Smith is trying to come up with these unique reinterpretations of the Bible in the 19th century. But in doing so, he's working off of a Bible commentary that was heavily used throughout, you know, kind of the Christian world. And this BYU study shows that Joseph Smith is engaging, absolutely, in using the surrounding source to create his revelatory Bible translation.

John Dehlin 47:16 And I'll add that we actually interviewed our Mormon Stories podcast, Haley Wilson Lamond, and so you can hear her discuss her research at BYU with a BYU professor. You know, if you don't want to believe us or if you don't want to watch our LDS discussions episode. Anything else? Nemo or Mike on that one? Should we jump to the next one? Okay, let's go to the next one, which is the Book of Enoch in the Joseph Smith translation.

Mike 47:43 Okay, so this is a big one, because I hear this all the time, especially, like, say, on Twitter, people reply and say, how did Joseph Smith know about the Book of Enoch before it was available. And apologists cite this all the time because Joseph Smith is going to add in the extract of the prophecy of enoch to Genesis 5 in the Joseph Smith translation, which we just talked about. And they cited as proof of his ability to be a prophet because they're claiming the text was unknown until long after Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible. And there is a scholar of Mormonism right now named Colby Townsend and he is working, I believe, on a dual doctor right now. And he is doing probably the best work out of anybody. When you talk about current research in 2023, he just did. We talked about his work on Isaiah in a few different episodes and that was published in dialogue recently about the appearance of Trito the Third Isaiah in the Book of Mormon or references to it. And he also has written about the availability of the Book of Enoch. And so what he found out was that not only was it known in Joseph Smith's time, but it was readily available and heavily discussed. And so after the Ethiopic writings of Enoch were translated, they created a large amount of interest both in the Europe and both in Europe and the US with many published references to writings that Joseph Smith would have had access to.

Nemo 49:07 Yeah.

Mike 49:07 And so what this slide is telling us is that what Colby Townsend has found is that these were all published around Joseph Smith and they were also published in Europe. So it's a very hot topic. And I've mentioned Colby in a few episodes. One of the cool things about his work is you can find all of his papers on academia. Edu I think so we should probably get a link for that because we've not only have we mentioned his work on Isaiah in past episodes, but he has writings about Adam and Eve, kind of how that works within Mormonism. And this, the Isaiah one was just published in dialogue, but this book of Enoch 1 I think is just fascinating because of the fact that it is such a not well known aspect of what Joseph Smith is doing and you hear so much about it. And Colby really is one of the only people that's as far as I've seen really addressing a lot of these newer scholarship topics, especially in the last couple of years he's been publishing amazing stuff. So if you have not checked out his writings, we should definitely get that link in the show notes for his academia page.

John Dehlin 50:10 All right. Yeah, yeah, we, we love you, Colby. Thanks for all your great work along with David Bacavoy, who I know is maybe a mentor of yours. And there's probably a million people I'm not mentioning. All right, and. And I think we have another slide that talks more from Colby and his dialogue article.

Mike 50:29 Yeah, and so there's an interview he had done with, I think it's with. With Carrie Shirts in the backyard professor on the Book of Enoch. And if it's not that, maybe I can get that in the show notes. I gotta check, see which one it is. But this is from his dialogue article, and I don't know if you or Nemo would like to read it, but it kind of illustrates how well known Enoch's works were around Joseph Smith's time.

John Dehlin 50:48 Go for it, Brother Nemo.

Nemo 50:49 Okay. Scholars in Mormon studies have long assumed that Joseph Smith Jr. Could not have been aware of First Enoch because Lawrence's translations were only made available in 1821. Smith began working on his revision of Genesis in the latter half of 1830. Hugh Nibley first popularised this issue in a series of articles published in the LDS Church's periodical Ensign from October 1975 to August 1977. In the series, Nibley made connections between the Enochic text Smith added to the King James version of Genesis 5 and ancient Jewish and Christian pseudepigrapha. The overarching assumption throughout Nibley's essays was that if you could show the concepts, language and motifs in the extract of the prophecy of Enoch could also be found in the ancient Jewish and Christian sources, then there was no other way to describe Smith's additions to Genesis 5 than as divinely inspired. How could he, a poor, uneducated farm boy, have come to know about these ancient traditions except through Revelation?

John Dehlin 51:55 I mean. Checkmate. Checkmate, Mike. Poor, uneducated farm boy. Check.

Nemo 51:59 That's it. You win.

John Dehlin 52:02 All right. Mike's muted. Go ahead, Mike, unmute yourself.

Mike 52:04 I forgot. Yeah, I've mentioned a lot. The equation, you know, if. If your equation is A plus B equals the church must be true, then A and B have to give you the church must be true. And this is what that Enzyme article is setting up, which is data plus evidence equals Joseph Smith could not have known. And what Colby Townsend talks about in his article and in his interview is that he found over 80 different sources that Joseph Smith could have had access to that talk about the themes and ideas and translations of the Book of Enoch, which means that Joseph Smith could have been swimming in these ideas. And I think there, I think his interview with Kerry Schurz, they talked about how he's on the Erie Canal, right? And a lot of people as they're traveling Back and forth. They're able to share, you know, books and materials that they get from other areas as they're going down, you know, for trade and whatever. So there's just all these opportunities for Joseph Smith to have access to this material and for the church to say that because it's found in ancient writings. But, you know, Joseph Smith couldn't have known. It's like. No, no, no.

John Dehlin 53:03 He.

Mike 53:03 He absolutely could have known and with almost positive certainty would have known.

John Dehlin 53:09 Yeah, okay. Yeah. The Book of Enoch is certainly not, you know, not what maybe critics or apologists for want us to believe about it. Let's go to the next one, which is the Word of Wisdom. Now, surely the Word of Wisdom. I mean, that's one of Joseph Smith's defining revelations, because so many Mormons now don't drink and don't smoke and don't drink coffee or tea. Surely he didn't get that from surrounding influences.

Word of Wisdom, Race Doctrine, and the Three Degrees of Glory

Mike 53:38 Yeah, and so this is another one. We did a whole episode on it. So we don't obviously want to reinvent the wheel here. But, you know, the Church's description of the Word of Wisdom is as such. It says, the prophet Joseph Smith received this revelation on February 27, 1833, and it is now recorded in section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In the revelation, the Lord teaches healthy practices. He also prohibits some substances that are not good for the human body. And as we talked about, this is all coming from the temperance movement. And what's really interesting is David Whitmer is going to talk about this in an interview in 1886. And I don't know if you or Nima want to read his quote on kind of how the word wisdom came to be.

John Dehlin 54:21 I think it's mine. David Whitmer described the origin this way. Quote, some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, meaning tobacco, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused. Mrs. Smith, tell us how you really feel, David Whitmer, to make the ironical remark that, quote, it would be a good thing if a revelation could be had, declaring the use of tobacco a sin and commanding its suppression. Close quote. The matter was taken up and joked about. One of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter dig at the sisters. Wow. All right.

Nemo 55:07 Like, Joseph Smith here is like the guy at the party who didn't get that it was a joke. And he was like, no, yeah, let's actually do that. Yeah, yeah, let's do It.

John Dehlin 55:16 And everyone's like, oh, okay, we were kidding, Joseph. Yeah, you didn't get. That was a joke. Well, Mike, Mike, it turns out that we should see what. What was going on with the Timbers Movement at the time.

Nemo 55:27 Yeah.

Mike 55:28 And so this is a lot of text here, but, you know, we'll go a little quickly. And this is actually from the Mormon Stories essay on the Word of Wisdom, which is really good because it talks about how the temperance movement is going. Excuse me. To completely impact the Word of Wisdom as Joseph Smith would give it. And so for those who don't know, the temperance movement was this movement that was happening in the 19th century. And it was basically this movement that focused on ways to be healthier and to temper kind of some of the stuff we're using. And so every aspect of the Word of Wisdom is basically mentioned in the temperance, which is to say, you know, it avoids to promote the avoidance of alcohol, coffee, tea, tobacco, sparing use of meat, eating the fruits when they're in season. Those are all in the Journal of Health, which was published in Philadelphia August 25, 1830, that also contains every aspect of the Word of Wisdom. And then, remember, this is happening. And Joseph Smith has the Kirtland chapter of the Temperance Society right in his backyard, which is formed in 1830, shortly before Mormons arrived from New York. And so Sylvester Graham is a Presbyterian minister, conducted a speaking tour for almost 15 years extolling the virtues of abstaining from alcohol, smoking tea, coffee, and eating a diet mainly of grains, fruit, local fruits and vegetables. Meat was expressly forbidden, which is to say that all these ideas are being talked about in his time. And February 26, 1833, was the National Day of Temperance, which prompted much discussion in Nauvoo. I think that's meant to be Kirtland. I'm not sure. It was common practice at the School of Elders to chew, spit, and smoke tobacco. And as we talked about, this is where the Emma was prompted to say, you know, be a good thing if you get a revelation, declaring it a sin so she wouldn't have to clean it up. And as Nemo said, it was joked about, but then Joseph Smith actually does it. And some people think that they've removed coffee, basically to get back at the sisters for making the comment. And the point is, all of these things are in the temperance movement. All of these things are happening right in his backyard. And most importantly, as we talked about in the episode, a lot of the elements of the Word of Wisdom are just nutritionally and scientifically, not really accurate in 2023. Like, they have not been proven right to the point where the Mormon Church has had to redefine what the word of wisdom is. Because if they actually enforce the word of Wisdom as it was written, we'd be able to drink beer. Members of the church could smoke pot. And so they've had to redefine it basically to try to rein in some sort of relevance to 2023.

Nemo 58:03 But then it's not about health, because having been to Utah now, I've seen a place that's called Spaghetti by the Bucket. And if you can buy spaghetti by the Bucket, I'm concerned for your health and well being. Also soda, like, highly caffeinated energy drinks, things like that, they seem to pass muster. But Coca Cola was bad for some reason, but now that seems to be fine. But tea and coffee? No. Lots of sugar.

John Dehlin 58:31 Yeah, Maven's showing her energy drinks. Hey, Maven.

Mike 58:38 No, it's true.

John Dehlin 58:38 I mean, yeah, yeah, you can drive it. Like. Like little. Little shops of, like, extra sugar fied sodas are popping up all over Utah and are becoming as prevalent as. As Mormon chapels, which is no small feat.

Mike 58:57 Yep.

John Dehlin 58:58 Yeah.

Nemo 58:59 And sugar's not good for you folks.

Mike 59:01 No, I mean, it's just. It's. It's. As they say now, the. The word of wisdom is a law of obedience. It's not about being correct anymore, because we know it's not correct. We talk about that in our episode where, you know, coffee and tea have so many health benefits that you're not allowed to drink it because it's about being obedient to the leaders of the church, because the leaders of the church redefined hot drinks to mean coffee and tea. Iced coffee, Iced tea, not. Okay. Even though the revelation is hot drinks, it. It's a complete mess. But it's all based in the 19th century and more specifically in the temperance movie movement of the 1830s.

John Dehlin 59:36 Yeah, yeah, that's a really, really conspicuous one. All right, let's go on to the next one, which we've covered in depth, but it deserves its own treatment here because it. It's like Joseph Smith couldn't produce scripture. Literally, he couldn't produce scripture without incorporating the curse of Cain doctrine and the curse of ham doctrine. So, Mike, let's talk about that in the Origins.

Mike 59:58 So I left this one short because we cover this in a lot of detail in our episodes on race of the priesthood. But Basically, in the 19th century, there is a curse of Cain. There's a curse of ham, and they're both these two Theories that are being used to basically justify slavery by using the Bible to say that they were cursed with dark skin. And therefore part of the curse is that they are going to be slaves to the white people. And Joseph Smith is going to work both of these into his revel, into his scriptures. So the Book of Moses features the curse of Cain, which says that God cursed black people with dark skin. I mean, that's, it's still Mormon scripture today, which is that Joseph Smith rewrites Genesis to say people with black skin have black skin because God cursed them as part of the curse of Cain. The book of Abraham has the curse of ham. And if you read the Book of Abraham right at the beginning, it's talking about how the race in Egypt sprung from the loins of ham, which is the race that is unable to hold the priesthood. And that is the origin for the priesthood ban in the Mormon Church. And so when people say it's just a Brigham Young being racist, well, Brigham Young, yeah, he was horribly racist, but he's also pulling from canonized Mormon scripture to give a very doctrinally based idea of a priesthood ban. That priesthood ban did not come out of Brigham Young, it came from Joseph Smith, because Joseph Smith is implementing these very uniquely 19th century racist ideas into ancient scripture.

Nemo 1:01:25 And let's not forget second Nephi 5 as well, which is essentially the Book of Mormon's curse on the Lamanites. So you've actually got three curses running around in Mormon scripture. The curse on the Lamanites, curse of Ham, curse of Cain. And I, part of me just wondered now whether Joseph Smith wrote these into ancient scripture in part to back up the curse that he'd written into the Book of Mormon.

Mike 1:01:46 Yeah, I mean, it makes sense because, you know, if you at the time, everybody, you know, think about these white settlers come to America and they're like, who are all these people with dark skin and how they get here? And so as we talked about earlier in this episode, they create this origin story for them, which is to say that they killed off this ancient white superior race. And so Joseph Smith is now thinking, okay, well, everybody here is thinking that if you have dark skin, it's somehow a curse from God. Because we're all thinking in this 19th century Christian viewpoint with the Bible and trying to make everything relevant to the Bible. And to Nemo's point, yeah, all of a sudden he's doing these other scriptures and he's like, well, I gotta figure out how to make this relevant because we're dealing with slavery today and, and so, of course, in. In the Book of Moses in Genesis, Joseph Smith writes it in there, and it. It just. Again, it points to a very specific time frame of the 19th century. And he's pulling it from the sources and the ideas around him, all around him.

John Dehlin 1:02:42 And did I, like. I think we can trace kind of who the, you know, some. Some of the very, very early sources of this Curse of Cain, Mark of Cain, Ham kind of doctrine. Did we talk about that in our previous episode, where those ideas came from?

Mike 1:02:58 We. Yeah, we have more in that. Those episodes because, you know, Curse of Kane and Curse of Ham are kind of two different things, but Joseph Smith, in a lot of ways is conflating them just. I mean, to be honest, I do, too, because they're. They're different, but they're overlapping. And so we do talk more about kind of how they were used in his time in that episode, because, yeah, these are very, like. It's one of those things where we talk about who could have written the Book of Mormon. It's like it has to be written in the 19th century because all of these ideas that just happen to be in Joseph Smith's scriptures are ideas that really are being developed in that exact same time. And that's why I always refer to this. Sorry, as a mixtape, because it's almost like Joseph Smith is listening to the radio and he's like, I like that idea record. I like that idea record. And all of a sudden he's like, I got this awesome tape, and it's everyone else's ideas, but it's put together in a way that's unique to him. And obviously it's still scripture in the Mormon Church today. So. So obviously those ideas of dark skin are. Are still alive and well.

John Dehlin 1:03:52 All right, well, yeah, please read on to. To learn more about that. The next one is kind of a real Mormon sacred cow, I think. I think Mormons think they're the only people in the entire world that believe in three degrees of glory. Celestial, terrestrial, and telestial. So please, Mike, please don't tell us that Joseph Smith didn't come up with that, that he had a source for. For the three degrees of glory.

Mike 1:04:20 Yeah, and this is one to me that was really surprising to see, just because, like you said, it was always taught to me as a convert that this was something that was revealed to him, and I had not heard that it was around his same time frame. And so a quick description of the three degrees of heaven from the church's website says, through the atonement of Jesus, Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we'll stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when he said, in my Father's house are many mansions, and there are in the church three kingdoms of the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we will inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion expressed by our obedience to the Lord's commandments and leaders. It will depend on the manner in which we have received the testimony of Jesus. So it sounds pretty unique. And if you want to just go to the next slide, we can just.

John Dehlin 1:05:24 Yeah, tell us what the source is.

Mike 1:05:27 And so while Joseph Smith is is credited for the idea of the three different heavens, the idea was first popularized by Emanuel Swedenborg as his writings became available around 1784. Swedenborg believed that there are three heavens described as entirely distinct from each other. He called the highest heaven the celestial kingdom and stated that the inhabitants of the three heavens corresponded to the sun, moon and stars, which is another theme you see often in Mormonism. We know Joseph Smith was aware of Swedenborg. And this is confirmed by an account of Edward Hunter. And this is from BYU studies. And this is a really important, I think, quote. And it's an important aspect to this because they say Hunter had established a seminary dedicated to the free exchange of religious ideas. And when Joseph Smith stopped at the Nat Meal Seminary in Pennsylvania during a return trip from Washington D.C. hunter reported that this. Reported this exchange. I asked him if he was acquainted with Sweden Burgers. Sweden Burgers. His answer? I variously believe Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished. And BYU studies is going to really work hard with this article with this quote to try to make this still faith promoting. And so they concede that Swedenborg had a lot of concepts that mirror what Joseph Smith would later introduce into Mormonism. But this is how they conclude it. And this is really important. Believing Latter Day Saints might answer that question with an explanation that parallels Joseph Smith's reported statement to Edward Hunter. It is possible that Swedenborg saw the heavens. Latter Day Saints readily accept that individuals outside their tradition have been given special revealed insight into heavenly truths. And thus the points of convergence in Swedenborgianism and Mormonism could reflect accurate, though independent descriptions of the true Christian. And eschology. I don't know how to say it.

John Dehlin 1:07:22 Eschatology.

Mike 1:07:23 Eschatology, yeah. Latter Day Saints could accept that To a remarkable degree, Emmanuel Swedenborg and Joseph Smith both experience actual visions of the afterlife. Reality.

Nemo 1:07:33 I mean, they could.

John Dehlin 1:07:35 Yeah.

Nemo 1:07:35 Or you could look at it that Joseph Smith.

Mike 1:07:38 Yeah.

Nemo 1:07:38 Took that idea from him and applied it to his own theology.

John Dehlin 1:07:42 Yeah. You just. It. It's kind of like maybe once, maybe twice. But we're going to be showing 10 or 15 core things that have sources elsewhere. And at some point you just ask, what's God doing? Why did God even need Joseph? He could have just hired an editor, basically, you know. Yeah.

Mike 1:08:03 I mean, let's just say, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, Anthony Miller, who's been on your show a lot, who's awesome, calls him, I think, an eclectic aggregator. And this is showing that because Joseph Smith here is pulling from ideas that are all around him, hot topic issues. And today the church is like, well, you know, we teach that people in other religions do have the same visionary experiences. And I'm like, do you really, though? Like, I've never really heard them say anyone in modern times have a vision of. A true vision of the Order of Heaven. But they have to do it because you have to explain how Joseph Smith is using those same ideas and has an established contemporary account stating that he's familiar with the person behind those ideas. There's no way out. And so, yeah, that's. It's a problem they have to deal with.

John Dehlin 1:08:48 Yeah, yeah. Swedenborg was certainly either an influence of Joseph Smith or, you know, Joseph Smith in Swedenborg were influenced by a similar milieu.

Mike 1:08:59 Right.

John Dehlin 1:09:00 But you really can't ignore. You really can't ignore that. Nemo, anything you want to add before we jump on to the next one? Nope, you're good. All right, let's go on to one we've already covered, but we gotta mention it because it's so conspicuous and crucial to Mormon theology. It's the Endowment Mormon. The LDS Endowment Ceremony being taken by Joseph from the Masonic Lodge Temple ceremony.

Masonry and the Temple Endowment Ceremony

Nemo 1:09:25 Yep.

Mike 1:09:25 So we've covered this in much more detail in our episode on the Temple Ceremony in Masonry. But just to recap how much Joseph Smith took from Masonry. So, as we know, on March 15, 1842, Joseph Smith was initiated as a Master Mason. And just like six weeks later, on May 3, 1842, Joseph Smith is going to introduce the Endowment Ceremony. So seven weeks after becoming a Master Mason and being introduced himself to the Masonic Ceremony, Joseph Smith is going to introduce the Endowment Ceremony that is going to feature almost identical text, symbols, clothings, handshakes, and more.

John Dehlin 1:10:03 Yeah. And. And we could cover that. But we don't need to. Nemo. Anything you want to add to that one?

Nemo 1:10:08 No, no, no, no. Yeah, we can keep digging into it, because I think there's a couple of slides coming up.

Mike 1:10:14 Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 1:10:14 So Joseph Smith taught that he was restoring an ancient ceremony.

Mike 1:10:19 Yeah. And so this is really important, and this is something. Because we'll often hear people say, well, you know, Joseph Smith didn't. Didn't think he was stealing the ceremony. He just thought he was using it as a vehicle. You hear that all the time. Like, Joseph Smith was using it because it's a good vehicle. He wasn't actually thinking that it was the actual ceremony. And that's simply not true. So here are what, five quotes? And I'll just run through them real quick. So Heber C. Kimball said, we have the true Masonry. The Masonry of today is received from the apostasy which took place in the days of Solomon and David. They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing. So that's a pretty clear indication that Joseph Smith was teaching them that. But Heber C. Kimball also told in a letter to Parley Pratt, there is a similarity of priesthood and Masonry. Brother Joseph says Masonry was taken from priesthood but has become degenerated, but many things are perfect. So he's basically confirming that yes, is from Joseph Smith. Then we have the journals of Joseph Fielding Smith, which say many have joined the Masonic institution. This seems to have been a stepping stone or preparation for something else. The true origin of Masonry.

John Dehlin 1:11:28 So again, that says Joseph Fielding, not Joseph Fielding.

Mike 1:11:31 Oh, yeah, sorry, sorry. Yep. Yeah, Joseph Fielding. And then the next one is President Franklin d. Richards in 1890 says certain mystic rites which are practiced throughout Christendom claim antiquity with Solomon's Temple. And last is Benjamin F. Johnson. He says he. Joseph Smith told me Freemasonry, as at present, was the apostate endowments, as sectarian religion was the apostate religion. So here are all these quotes where Joseph Smith is teaching everyone around him. Masonry is the original endowment, but it got kind of corrupted. I'm restoring it by basically taking the ceremony. And as we know, that is simply not correct.

Nemo 1:12:07 Not correct. It's based on an origin myth that the Masons kind of tell. It's a bit of a. Yeah, a bit of an origin myth. It's. It's one of the old stories, but it's. It's, you know, medieval stone Masonry. That is what it is.

John Dehlin 1:12:20 And this is actually. Actually one of the. One of the first Mormon stories episodes I did which was with Greg Kearney, who is and was a master Mason. And as we talk about on this next slide, and we'll have that in the show notes, you know, we. We learn what's wrong with what. What was being taught. Take it away, Mike.

Mike 1:12:41 So we now know that the Masonic ceremony did not originate until around 2, 000 years after Solomon's Temple. And we also know Solomon's temporal was about animal sacrifice and had nothing to do with Masonry anyway. Both fair Mormon and the church itself concede this fact. I think that's really important. This is an area where Joseph Smith saw an idea he liked. He molded it to fit what his desires were and his needs were. In this case, to create an endowment, which I think had a lot to do with polygamy, but also was a way to keep his, you know, as we talk about treasure digging, it's a way to continually progress your members to keep them in the church. And he taught his members that God restored what was lost in the great apostasy. And so these two quotes, the first one's from fair Mormon, and they say, wouldn't it be more correct to say that Masonry came out of the endowment? And he says it would be. If you believe that Freemasonry has a continuous historical line from King Solomon's Temple to the current. Unfortunately, there is no historical evidence to support a continuous functioning line from Solomon's Temple to the present. We know what went on in Solomon's Temple. It's the ritualistic slaughter of animals.

John Dehlin 1:13:44 Yeah. If you want to. If you want to go to the authority of what happened in Solomon's Temple, you kind of got to go with the Jews because they were there, they kept records. They handed those records down along with oral and physical traditions for literally millennia now. And are we going to go with fair Mormon or Jews? You know, that's my.

Mike 1:14:05 Yeah, I mean, are you going to mold the evidence to make it work? Because we need to privileged Joseph Smith, or are you going to go with the overabundant of evidence? It's a really easy choice.

John Dehlin 1:14:15 Yeah. All right, let's go to that second paragraph there. That final paragraph.

Mike 1:14:19 Yeah, the second paragraph, I think is really stunning because this is directly from the church's topics essay. It's not a full gospel topics essay, but they have these little mini essays online that go through these topics. And can you put that up on the screen?

John Dehlin 1:14:32 Yeah, so it says, should we have Nemo read it?

Mike 1:14:34 Yeah, have Nemo read that one.

John Dehlin 1:14:35 All right.

Nemo 1:14:35 Nemo from the church's topic essay. The topic entry on Masonry masons told a story about how their ancient forebears had learned stone Masonry, used it to build Solomon's Temple, protected the temple site and held knowledge about their craft as a closely guarded secret. By Joseph Smith's day, the boundaries between Masonry's early European history and its founding myths and traditions had long since been blurred. The rituals of Freemasonry appear to have originated in early modern Europe. Aspects of these ceremonies bear resemblance to religious rites in many cultures, ancient and modern.

John Dehlin 1:15:14 Thanks, Nemo.

Mike 1:15:15 Yeah, so I mean, they're basically, the church is basically saying Joseph Smith cannot tell the difference between myth and history because the lines got blurred. Joseph Smith didn't know. So what are you gonna do, basically, is what they're saying. And I think that's a really telling statement, not just on the fact that Joseph Smith is aggregating all of this information, but the fact that he can't tell the difference between historical origins of something and the mythical kind of story that evolves over time. Which again goes back to our episode that we did recently on discernment and stuff. Joseph Smith couldn't tell the difference, which is a problem when you're now telling people this is directly from God and was the original endowment that became apostasize. Apostasy, apostatized.

John Dehlin 1:15:56 It's such a weird argument when the Church kind of makes the argument that Joseph Smith didn't know what he was doing. And they do that now with the Book of Abraham. They're doing that here. They do that with the Book of Mormon. Like. Yep, it's such a weird argument to make. Anyway, let's go ahead and jump to the next slide which shows similarities between the Masonic Lodge ceremony and the LDS Temple ceremony, at least prior to, you know, whatever dates before they made changes. Go ahead.

Mike 1:16:24 And I want to be very clear that what we're showing in these next few slides are not from the Temple. It is not from Mormonism. These are all Masonic. So I know people might get offended, but I'm showing you the Masonic stuff. And if you see similarities, that is going to be something we're talking about. But I'm not showing the, the handshakes of the Mormon Temple, I'm showing the Masonic ones. I know people might not care, but I just want to make that clear. So these are on the right, if you're listening, on the right side, we have a picture of all of the different grips that the Masons use in their ceremony. And what we talk about here is that each of these grips comes with a Sign and a token. And so they have a. Like a little script which are gonna sound familiar. I don't know if John and Nemo. Yeah, that's that one maybe.

John Dehlin 1:17:07 All right, it says here is the Masonic ceremony as the member is given the signs and tokens of each script. I'll do Worshipful master.

Nemo 1:17:16 Sure. Pass.

John Dehlin 1:17:18 What is that?

Nemo 1:17:20 The pass grip of a fellow craft.

John Dehlin 1:17:22 Has it a name?

Nemo 1:17:24 It has.

John Dehlin 1:17:25 Will you give it to me?

Nemo 1:17:26 I did not so receive it, neither will I so impart it.

John Dehlin 1:17:31 All right, that does sound familiar.

Mike 1:17:32 For those of you familiar, then, that's because it's coming from there. But like I said, this is the Masonic script is not the Church script.

John Dehlin 1:17:39 And for those who aren't able to view what we're showing, on the right side are various handshakes that look identical to at least the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, the second token of the Aaronic Priesthood, and others that maybe would remind you of the first or second tokens of signs or tokens of the Melchizedek priesthood. So it's just the handshakes that we all who have been through the Temple would be familiar with, with maybe some slight modifications on a few of them. Let's go ahead and talk about the symbols on the gar.

Mike 1:18:13 Yeah, and so one of the. So the symbols that are often used in Mormonism are the compass and the square. And so, you know, from the Masonic ceremony, it says the candidate then enters the senior deacon at the same time pressing his left breast with the point of the compass. As he enters, the angle of the square is pressed against his right breast. And, you know, again, these are the same symbols that are on the Church's garments. And I had no idea as a member that I was wearing Masonic symbols on my underwear. And I can understand why the Church does not want to tell members that, but it's really creepy in hindsight to me, knowing that I was effectively wearing Masonic clothing underneath my normal clothes under kind of the premise that it's from God. And as I've mentioned before, if the endowment was truly a revelation from God long before Joseph was initiated into Masonry, why is it so unmistakably similar in the most sacred of ways? And why are these symbols on the underwear of every endowed member of the Church? I think that's really weird, and it's pretty telling where it's coming from.

John Dehlin 1:19:14 And for those who can't see, we've just got a picture of the square, a picture of the compass, and a picture of the ruler, which, you know, completely mimic the three little stitched markings in the garment, shirt or top that all of us who have gone on missions or gotten married in the temple or have been endowed will be familiar with really quickly. Let's go to the next slide, which are more similarities to the Masonic ceremony.

Mike 1:19:43 Yeah. And this one, if you're listening, we have a picture on the right and it's from the Royal Arch Masons in Illinois. And I camera what year it's from. But if you're looking at it, it's very familiar because they have robes, they have the kind of the baker's cap, they have aprons, and it looks very familiar to what you would see in a Mormon Temple. Although their aprons kind of look like a Gmail logo. But in addition to that, within the Masonic ceremony, you have ceremonial washing. In some parts of Masonry, they give members a new name. They do the five points of Fellowship, which has been removed from the Mormon Temple because it's very creepy. They have penalties of death for revealing temple secrets, which is now removed from the Mormon Temple ceremony because it's creepy. They wear robes, aprons and hats. The beehive is a symbol of Masonry. The all seeing eye, the square and the compass. The five points of Fellowship, which I just said, the use of the phrase holiness to the Lord and the sun, moon and stars. So all of these things that are, that we believe to be like these uniquely symbolic symbols of the Mormon Temple ceremony, they're almost all from Masonry. And it's just again, it's weird that we would believe that this is a restored ancient Solomon's Temple connection when we know that that's not the case. And yet it comes from what Joseph Smith had learned seven weeks before creating it for the members.

Nemo 1:21:02 Yeah. Salt Lake Temple is covered in Masonic symbols, right?

Mike 1:21:05 Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin 1:21:06 I mean, unless they changed it recently in the remodeling. Right, but it was.

Mike 1:21:10 No, I'm sure it still isn't. The, the symbol on the new Utah state flag looks actually the flag looks pretty cool, but the middle of it's a giant beehive. And so I always kind of look at that. I'm like, oh, cool, they're going with a Masonic, Masonic symbol in the middle of their, their flag. Even though everybody who sees that's gonna be like, oh, cool, that's Mormonism. It's like, no, no, no, that's Masonic. But, but because Joseph Smith co opted it, now they look at it as the beehive being a very powerful symbol within Mormonism.

John Dehlin 1:21:35 Good. All right, well, I mean, we really actually have done A land speed record. Because we're. We're almost done with this episode.

Mike 1:21:43 I know.

John Dehlin 1:21:44 Just to recap, you know, we want to think that Joseph Smith, you know, got his. All of his revelations directly from God. But whether it's the Book of Mormon and the Lamanite, Nephite, slash mound builder myth, the first vision, the idea of a restored priesthood, the temple ceremony, the word of wisdom, three degrees of glory, and honestly, even you could add in their polygamy, there were. There were communes, you know, that were going. Going around in New England where people were experimenting sexually. You know, you could add to that, you know, law of consecration, you know, communes, etc. You know, there were communes that were experimenting with. With united order kind of things. You know, this is just. Honestly, Mike, a small sampling of the many, many, many things that we could sort of. That we could attribute to various sources that Joseph Smith had access to.

Mike 1:22:47 Yep, 100%. And that, that's the thing, like, when you talk about what's unique within Mormonism, almost every single one of them has a direct connection to something contemporary around Joseph Smith and even polygamy. I think it's the Concordites or something like that that were doing it around that time. But outside of polygamy, everything else has a very direct connection to a contemporary thing in Joseph Smith's time and place. And so when you think that all these things are being restored through Joseph Smith, it's interesting that what's being restored to Joseph Smith is limited to what he knows about happening all around him. And completely absent is anything that wouldn't be known for a long time, which we've talked about a lot with our revelation episodes. It's just interesting that everything basically ends at Joseph Smith's ability to know it from a secular point of view.

John Dehlin 1:23:34 I love it. Nima, really quickly, any. Any final points before we show the final slide?

Conclusions on Joseph Smith and His Environment

Nemo 1:23:40 No, Crack on to the final slide, please.

John Dehlin 1:23:42 Okay. Yeah. This final slide reflects something that I shared earlier in the episode, but I think it's good to kind of drive the point home. And we're basically just going to highlight all the things that are missing, you know, from the Book of Mormon as a way to show just chronologically how clear it is that Joseph Smith was a product of his surroundings.

Nemo 1:24:04 Yeah.

Mike 1:24:05 And so, you know, like I've said, we're told that the Book of Mormon brings us the fullness of the gospel, and yet the Book of Mormon does not include almost any of the uniquely Mormon teachings that will come out later, which, as I've said, it's a problematic thing, especially when you call something the fullness of the gospel. And so some of those ideas, a temple marriage is a requirement for exaltation, baptisms for the dead, celestial marriage lasting for time and all eternity. The salvation in the highest kingdom requires going through the endowment ceremony. Because in the Book of Mormon, not only is there no mention of exaltation or an endowment ceremony, but the idea of secret combinations requiring secret oaths are strictly condemned. That there's multiple priesthoods or Melchizedek priesthood, that the sacrament should include water, the word of wisdom, that prophets are promoted to the office by church leaders instead of by God. The Garden of Eden being a Missouri, the idea of the presidency is anachronistic. And the Book of Mormon makes no mention of anything beyond the 12 disciples. And so when you look at all of the things that are unique to Mormonism, it's interesting that none of them are, almost none of them are in the Book of Mormon. And they all come from contemporary ideas all around Joseph Smith. It really, as I keep saying, when people say Joseph Smith couldn't written the Book of Mormon, I constantly say no one else could have but Joseph Smith. And it's because of this. I mean, it had to be written in that exact time, that exact place, and by somebody with the exact same experience as a Joseph Smith. And he leaves a very, very clear paper trail of fingerprints as to where everything he's restoring is coming from.

John Dehlin 1:25:35 Yeah, yeah, I. It's kind of a discourteous little couplet, but I'll share it. I've heard people say, you know, what was it? Nothing. Nothing. That's. Have you heard the quote, somebody helps you.

Nemo 1:25:53 Yeah, go ahead, Go ahead. Yeah, Everything. Everything good about. Everything unique about Mormonism isn't good. Everything good about Mormonism isn't unique.

John Dehlin 1:26:02 Yeah.

Nemo 1:26:03 Yep.

John Dehlin 1:26:03 Yeah, that's another couplet. Nima, what else do you want to add to Mike's conclusion?

Nemo 1:26:07 I was going to say that. Yeah. When we're talking about the probability of Joseph Smith being able to do this, I think it's very important to take Mike's point and remember it, that it is only Joseph Smith that you can track to have encountered all these different ideas. That's why I don't. I don't know whether there's anyone else who encountered all these different ideas because they were disparate, they came from different sources, but that's how you channel them together, by looking at, well, who was the one person that actually encountered all these things and then preached them himself. And that's Joseph Smith. The other thing I would say is if you're watching this and it makes you uncomfortable and you want to turn away and you want to deny it, I would invite you to sit with that discomfort and. And maybe ponder why this makes you uncomfortable. And go to the. Go to the description. Look at all the resources, look at all these sources and decide for yourself. Have a look for yourself, because you know this is going to make you feel uncomfortable if you've come at this from a position of believing that Joseph Smith received direct revelations directly from God. And that's how we learn all these things. Because I think we've put forward pretty compelling evidence that wasn't always the case. Yep.

John Dehlin 1:27:17 Yeah, super good. All right, well, I think. I think we were able to put together a pretty compelling episode. Mike, thanks for doing that on the fly a few weeks back.

Mike 1:27:29 Yeah, anytime. I think it's a good way kind of to put a bow on all the things we've been talking about, because now we're moving into. I think most of the episodes that are left are going to be either past Joseph Smith or not really going back into this. So our next episode, I'm gonna move one of our later episodes up because I'm so excited to do it. Our next episode is going to be the Transfiguration of Brigham Young, and I am so excited to do that one because I think it. I honestly think that's one of the most important religious events of any religion in modern times. And we'll go into why, but I really do think that event is so much more important than anyone that I've seen talk about. It really understands. So I'm looking forward to that episode. And then after that, we've got it. We've got episodes on if Joseph Smith got it right, who got it wrong, apologetics, spiritual witnesses, doubts. We've got a lot left. And. But I think this is a good way to kind of, you know, like I said, say goodbye to maybe the earlier episodes of. Of the Truth Claims and now move into to a little bit of a different direction.

John Dehlin 1:28:29 All right, well, Mike, thanks. Thanks again so much. Check out LDS discussions.com for Mike's amazing set of essays. And, you know, Please donate to MormonStories.org Go to MormonStars. Org, click on the donate button. And please donate because we want to help start compensating Mike for his amazing work. Anyway, Mike, you're the best. You're a savant. Thanks for all of the work you do for us.

Mike 1:28:57 Thanks, everybody, for watching. And like I said, hopefully they've been helpful. And as Nemo said, you know, don't take our word for it. Go look at the website, follow the sources, follow the footnotes, and if it makes you feel uncomfortable, don't let that stop you. Keep going until you get. Get clear answers, because being uncomfortable is part of the process we all have to go through. And it sucks. It's not fun. But you have to be able to be uncomfortable. If you, if you refuse to get uncomfortable, you're never going to get the answers you're looking for because you're always going to stop too short. So don't take our word for it, but don't let that discomfort stop you either.

John Dehlin 1:29:32 All right, thanks, Mike. Take care. It's always great to have you as a co host. And please check out Nemo, the Mormon YouTube channel. Subscribe to it as you subscribe to Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel and on Facebook. Nemo, you're a rock star.

Nemo 1:29:48 It's always a pleasure. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin 1:29:50 Yeah, and please take care of. Of Daniel. Yeah, you know, Taper. Taper Dan.

Nemo 1:29:55 Taper Dan. Daniel an important guy.

John Dehlin 1:29:58 Yeah, we appreciate Daniel. All right, Nemo, you're the best. Oh, and also donate to Nemo the Mormon Channel. Nemo, how do people donate to you again?

Nemo 1:30:07 Donor box, forward slash. Nemo the Mormon.

John Dehlin 1:30:10 All right, keep that up. All right, thanks, Nemo. And thanks again for joining us on Mormon Stories podcast today. Please share this episode with everyone you can. Please comment, give us your comments, send us email@mormonstories gmail.com with your feedback and and of course, go to Mormonstor if you want to see this content. Continue. You can create super chats on YouTube, which is a way to donate through YouTube. You can donate through the stars feature on Facebook, but the most helpful way you you can help us is to go to the donor box button on mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor and we'll continue creating amazing content for you, for your loved ones, and for everyone who's in need. Huge thanks to Maven for doing the time codes that shown us today to Brooklyn for doing the editing for Julia and Gerardo for helping out with the thumbnail in Gerardo's case and the shorts, and for Clint and Carrie who help with the board and for everyone who makes Mormon Stories possible. We're super grateful for your support. Please tune in again for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and LDS discussion series and be good and be kind to each other. Take care, everybody.

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