How Modern Mormons Still Defend Racist Scripture

Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin 0:01 Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John De Lynn. It is July 29, 2024, and today we're going to be covering the Book of Mormon and its teachings around the skin of blackness, or the curse that, according to the Book of Mormon, God gave to the Lamanites because he deemed them to be wicked and filth them and dark and loathsome, and he wanted them to appear disgusting to the white Nephites, and so he gave them dark skin. That's what the Book of Mormon Sundays. Nowadays in 2024, Mormon apologists are trying to change the narrative and claim that when the Book of Mormon says skin of blackness, what it really meant was something else, like tattoos or furs or something weird like that. This is an LDS discussions edition of Mormon Stories podcast, meaning that it's part of an ongoing series of discussions on Mormon Stories to discuss LDS Church truth claims as neutrally and as dispassionately and as objectively as possible. And while we don't have the amazing mic with us because it's summer, we have the amazing Julia with us. Julia Sanders. Hey, Julia.

Julia 1:17 Hi, Julie.

John Dehlin 1:19 You did the research for this episode, is correct?

Julia 1:21 Yes, I did. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:23 And you do great work. And then Gerardo's kind of partnered with you on this to help make this possible.

Julia 1:29 Yep.

John Dehlin 1:30 And then to maintain the LDS discussions continuity, we've got Nemo the Mormon from the UK joining us. Hey, Nemo.

Nemo 1:38 Hi.

John Dehlin 1:39 How's life? How's international global super stardom since you flew down to Texas to insert your British self into in a. In a. In a holy Texas residential issue that you had no business into?

Nemo 1:57 A lot of Texans were not happy, but then a lot of Texans were happy, so you can't win them all.

John Dehlin 2:02 I'm a Texan, and I'm very happy.

Nemo 2:04 I mean, I'm a Brit. I'm used to just going and inserting myself into foreign issues that really have nothing to do with me. It's kind of comes with the territory, this global that.

John Dehlin 2:12 That imperialism dies hard. Is that what you're saying?

Nemo 2:15 Yeah.

John Dehlin 2:16 Okay.

Nemo 2:16 That's what it's all about.

John Dehlin 2:18 All right, Julia, I. I gave an intro. Do you want to give your own intro now and tell us what we're going to be doing today? And, Gerardo, you can jump in as much as you want, because you guys are.

Gerardo Sumano 2:26 I just wanted to make a correction. This was mostly you, Julia.

Julia 2:32 Well, as far as these slides, you have some of the other ones, too, but. Yeah, so. Yeah, so. So there's been a lot of apologists that have been trying to recreate what it means, what the skin of blackness means, like John explained. And so the. We're just. I'm just showing that that's not the case. Like you can to. To change the meaning of this is to change history in a lot of ways. And so. And that's. That's wrong. Puts down the, the experiences that these people actually had. And so that's one of the reasons why I feel like it's important to share this actual history with you guys.

John Dehlin 3:03 Yeah. And. And I should note this is going to be a multi part episode. Is that correct, Julia?

Julia 3:09 Yes, at least two parts. Just so. Just because there's a lot of history to talk about and a lot of things, a lot of ways that the Lamanites played into the Mormon history. And so, yeah, this will be two parts at least.

John Dehlin 3:20 What are we covering today? And then what are we covering in the next one or two episodes later?

Julia 3:24 So today I think we're covering through Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, I think, up till the 1900s.

John Dehlin 3:30 Is that correct about the skin of blackness teaching in the Book of Mormon in the 19th century?

Julia 3:36 Basically, yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin 3:38 As the foundation for then talking about how the church started changing it from the early 20th century until now. Is that right?

Julia 3:47 Yes. And then how the apologists are trying to reframe the skin of blackness.

John Dehlin 3:52 Football. Move the football, as we like to say

Julia 3:56 the goal posts or something like that.

John Dehlin 3:57 Yes.

Julia 3:58 Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 3:59 Julia outdoes the sports bet.

Julia 4:02 I don't know sports.

John Dehlin 4:04 I love it. All right, Julia, take it away.

Julia 4:07 Yeah. So at the beginning, we are going to talk about the, the apologetics around it. So we're going to talk about. Actually, can you guys explain? So, so a lot of these videos are taken from book Mormon Central, Specifically a creator named Jasmine. I don't know how to say her last name.

John Dehlin 4:25 Yeah.

Guest 4 4:25 Okay.

Julia 4:26 And so do you just. Does anyone want to talk about her specifically?

John Dehlin 4:29 And well, I'll start.

Nemo 4:31 I've been advised not to by my lawyer.

John Dehlin 4:34 No, I'll start. Yeah. So basically this is something that I feel passionately about. So, you know, when Mormon Church members, you know, also, I'll back all the way up. So Mormon Stories podcast, one of its main goals is informed consent. It's to make sure that Mormon Church members and people investigating the Mormon Church know the truth about the church when they, you know, are going to be dedicating so much of their lives to it. And so historically on Mormon stories, when bad apologists give bad explanations that are Deceitful or harmful, dishonest, misleading. We like to have there be transparency or accountability with that. And in the past, we've gone after, you know, people like Lou Midgley or like Daniel Peterson or, you know, many others, not to attack them personally, but to display the dishonesty or the harm of their arguments. And so, you know, as Daniel Peterson and people like him and his ilk, Jack Welch and others have been sort of mothballed and put in the museum of toxic Mormon apologetics in the past, new new apologists have emerged as the new crop. And two specific kind of millennial apologists that I think are worth mentioning are Neil and Jasmine. I believe Rapi is how you pronounce their last names. I really don't know them, I've never met them, and I'm not trying to attack them per se, but what we want to do is attack or at least critique their arguments. And so, yeah, if you just want to show, we've got a couple, let's just say, profiles. Book of Mormon Central is an organization that, as I understand it receives millions of dollars of funding a year to, to defend the Book of Mormon. And Jasmine, it says Jimenez here. And what I'm guessing is that Jimenez is her maiden name and that since then, yeah, she's now Jasmine Jimenez Rapalai. So she's sort of the voice. She's sort of the voice in the face of a lot of these bad, damaging, I believe, dishonest apologetics. You can find her on Tik Tok and Instagram and, and YouTube, offering as sort of the voice and the face these really bad, horrible apologetic arguments. But, you know, we don't know how much she is actually the brain of these really awful, bad apologetics. We think that also her husband Neil might be involved as well. So this is a photo of Neil Rapalai. He's also with Book of Mormon Central. And we, you know, our understanding is that he does a lot of the writing and the research for these bad, toxic apologetics. And so can I add something, John? Yeah, please. Yeah.

Nemo 7:35 You talk about bad, damaging, toxic, dangerous apologetics, whatnot. I just want to add silly, just, just to keep it a little bit light as well. Sometimes these arguments are just silly. They're just a bit ridiculous, a little bit unbelievable, even to those who have, who are invested in having a sort of supernatural view of the world or a deified view of the world where gods can perform miracles even in that setting. Some of these arguments are just silly because you would have to ask yourself why. Why would that be the case. It would make no sense. So just to keep that light, I think it's important to recognize sometimes they're just a bit daft.

John Dehlin 8:10 Yeah. Like instead of saying skin of blackness means skin of blackness, dark skin, maybe it means tattoos or animal furs or paint or whatever.

Nemo 8:20 Just silly.

John Dehlin 8:22 Yeah, or paint. So yeah. So anyway, I don't want to hammer them like we're trying to attack them, but I think these people should be known by name because they're influencing a lot of things. And I think that might take us to the next slide, which maybe we'll have Gerardo talk about. Gerardo, can you give us a little background on this, on this episode that just came out on Mormonish?

Mormon Apologetics and the Facebook Group Context

Gerardo Sumano 8:48 Yeah, so this, this is an episode like, like you said, John came out just recently, a couple days ago on Mormonish. And it is about this group of a Facebook group called the Cow Calvary. Let me see. And apparently some even members of the group have a hard time remembering the spelling exactly. We, we see it spelled differently in, in a few places. But, but basically what this is is a group of LDS apologists and some of them that self proclaimed scholars. And basically what they have done is create this big Facebook group where they will secretly invite missionaries, currently serving missionaries to join the group and have the missionaries ask questions about doctrine or history or things that their investigators are having doubts or questions about. And then these so called scholars would come in and basically write answers for them. Sometimes they will, the missionary will come and say can you write me a copy paste answer to this investigator's question. And then the scholar or supposed scholar would write, will write the response and then the missionary will just do a copy paste on the, on on their conversations with their investigator. And sometimes they will also have the disc scholar in discuss in zoom discussions with the their investigators. And this kind of become a little bit of Bible bashing and you know, like that kind of apologetics. There's there they have a YouTube channel called Missionary Discussions where they post some of this, some of some of this investigator discussions that they have with with this scholar. And then the missionaries will go on the background and then the scholar would like interact with either the investigator or with even sometimes the investigator will bring, bring their pastor and then there will be like fighting about history and doctrine. So anyway, that's what this, this group is and what's kind of crazy about it is that some of Mormonism's most recognized scholars and you know, like Don Bradley and others have been or are part of this group and they will write answers for the missionaries and also people that work for Book of Mormon Central or, or, you know, Scripture Central will, will also be part of this group. And this is all being done behind the backs of, of the mission president and probably the missionary department. And because the missionaries just keep it secret and keep it to themselves, they don't, they don't tell their leaders about these groups. They're discouraged to tell leaders. They're also threatened that if they disagree with the group moderators, they will be turned. They will be like the, the ad. The moderators or the admins of the group will turn them in, into their,

Guest 4 12:14 their

Gerardo Sumano 12:17 mission presidents so that they have the risk of being sent back home for breaking the rules and being part of this group. So, yeah, it's kind of a big deal. So if you have questions or want to learn more about this group, you should go watch this. Episode 180 from Mormonish.

John Dehlin 12:35 Yeah, we're showing the episode here on the screen. Episode 180. Rebecca Biblioteca and Landon do great work. RFM helped them with this. So we'll, we may be covering that on Mormon Stories a little bit later. Can you go and show the next slide, Julia?

Julia 12:47 Sure.

John Dehlin 12:48 And Gerardo, what's this a screenshot of?

Gerardo Sumano 12:52 So this is a screenshot from the, an insider from the. That that was given to us by an insider from the cavalry. Oh, by the way, to get access to this private Facebook group, you have to show that you're a current serving missionary to be able to get in. But anyway, so this is someone, a moderator making an announcement and they say a big welcome to Neil. Say, say that his last name as well. We're collecting scholars like infinity Stones around here. I'll let Neil introduce himself. And then this is. So this is kind of, you know, showing that people, influential people in Book of Mormon Central or other organizations like that are, are being part of this group.

Nemo 13:44 Can we look at that comment at the bottom? Someone's like, oh, is it Christmas? And the response is don't get so excited. Even Neil Rapalai knows he's totally overrated. So he's getting roasted even in that group.

Julia 13:55 Yeah.

John Dehlin 13:55 And I'll just make, I'll just remake the point. Like if an investigator is reading the Book of Mormon and comes across skin of Blackness and says that's super racist. Why would I want to believe the Book of Mormon if it says something super racist? Or if a Mormon high school student comes across and is reading the Book of Mormon and reads the skin of Blackness part and says that's super racist. But then they stumble on a tick tock by Neil or Jasmine or the cavalry comes in and then provides dishonest, you know, bad, scholarly, disingenuous answers for the investigator. And that leads to influencing them to convert to the church or to be committed to the church or to go on a mission. And in a way that's deceitful or deceptive, then I think that's a bad thing. Now if somebody has all the factual information and decides to join the church or to go on a mission, that's great. We don't care. We just want it to be done with integrity and with honesty. All right, so back to you, Julia.

Julia 14:54 Yeah, and I really like that because a lot of what we're showing is like, if people just want a better understanding or people are seeking to join the church, this will give that the informed consent aspect of it. So, yeah. Okay, so we, I want to start with showing some of these clips from Jasmine specifically. And this is from her. TikTok is scripture plus. And so that's what these are being pulled from. And so we, we can just go ahead and play the first one and then if you guys have comments, that'd be great at Scripture Central.

Scholarship on Skin of Blackness in the Book of Mormon

Guest 4 15:25 We have now gone through 780 pages of scholarship on this topic. So here is the truth about the skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon, and it is not at all what you think it is. When you read about the Lamanites being cursed and receiving a skin of blackness, a lot of people get the ick. Understandably, it can be really easy to read race and skin color into this. That's because we're bringing a lot of modern assumptions into this text. Since the book claims to be ancient, we should look to the ancient world to understand what's possibly going on here. Look at Lamentations in the Bible here. It's talking about the state of the people after the destruction of Jerusalem. And it says, her Nazarites were pure than snow, they were whiter than milk, and but now their visage is blacker than a coal. And later on it adds, our skin was black like an oven. Skin color doesn't change like this. That's not how it works. So this clearly is some kind of symbolic metaphor. And it turns out this passage is actually appropriating this language from the Assyrian treaty of Assarhaddon close to the time of Lehi in the seventh century B.C. this treaty, like most covenants in the ancient world, was accompanied by penalties or curses for violating the covenant. And one of the curse Penalties said, may the gods make your skin and the skin of your women, your sons and your daughters dark. May they be black as pitch and crude oil. Again, that's not how skin color works. This is clearly a symbolic reference, and in this case, it's a motif for death and destruction. The truth is that scholars have discovered examples of this symbolically describing people in terms of black or white in writings in ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Arabs, Christians, and a whole lot more. Likewise, the skin of blackness that Nephi describes falling upon the Lamanites was not necessarily physical, but rather it symbolizes a spiritual death, being cut off from the Lord. It's their souls were in spiritual darkness. Toward the end of his record, Nephi prophesied that when the Lamanites came to know Jesus Christ again, they shall be a white and delightsome people. Now, later, Joseph Smith clarified this passage in the 1842 edition of the Book of Mormon to read a pure and delightsome people, to make crystal clear that this is talking about spiritual purity, not skin color. But being symbolic is not the only interpretation. Scholars have also looked into this skin of blackness being some kind of artificial, feedback, physical mark that the Lamanites placed on themselves. And some of them may surprise you. So if you want to read about those, check out the other videos in this series and read no. I 7 18. What is the skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon?

John Dehlin 17:38 Can I just ask what scholar is looking into what skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon means besides skin of blackness? Like, can that person, whoever that person is, be really considered a scholar?

Julia 17:53 I think that the upfront question seems like an apologetic thing. I don't think it's hard to rank apologetics with scholars.

Nemo 18:00 I think it's like what you said about Richard Bushman, though, John, in past episodes, where it's like, they're a scholar as far as the world of Mormonism is concerned. But outside of that, what their credentials are remains unclear, but they have that title because they're able to speak to a very niche issue that only matters to this very small group of people. Right?

Guest 4 18:19 Yeah.

John Dehlin 18:20 I just want to note Jasmine's reading. So, like, somebody writes what she reads, and then she reads it. She sounds like she believes and maybe even wrote what she's saying, but. But she's the voice, right? Go ahead, Julia.

Julia 18:37 Well, I will say that I have a script for myself that I write by myself, and I know that other character. Other creators do the same thing.

Nemo 18:43 So I do the same thing.

Julia 18:44 But, yeah, we don't. I don't know where she's where she's getting. Yeah.

John Dehlin 18:47 Well, anyway, did y' all want to respond? Just.

Nemo 18:50 Yeah, it's the way that she says, oh, some of them may surprise you. I said, well, yeah, of course they will. Because we all thought the text literally meant skin of blackness. Because that's what it says. And it's this other thing, you know, you. You might think it's about skin. Well, yeah, because it says skin.

Julia 19:05 It's.

Nemo 19:06 She's acting like we're the stupid ones for thinking that's what it means. But no, of course that's what you think it means.

John Dehlin 19:12 We're bringing modern assumptions and modern interpretations.

Nemo 19:16 And also, can we. Can we just speak for a moment? This irritates me no end. Apologists in on one hand will say, there were no significant changes to the Book of Mormon. They were all just grammatical, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then she's going, well, in addition to the Book of Mormon from the 1840s, Joseph Smith changed the word white to pure to clarify the meaning of something. If that's not a significant change, as she is portraying it to be in this video, that. How can she say it's a significant change and it should change our understanding of the scripture or clarify our understanding of the scripture. And then on another video, say there were no real major changes to the Book of Mormon.

Julia 19:49 Right. And I will say, I don't think I have slides for this, but I will say that those changes weren't made throughout the entire book. I think pretty sure they only made it in at least one or two spots.

Nemo 19:59 But again, like the theological changes.

John Dehlin 20:01 And that's why discussions is so important, because we. These episodes build on each other. We're in the mid-50s, I believe now, but. But what's important there is the church wants to have it both ways. They want us to believe that Joseph Smith put the seer stone these days, put the seer stone in a hat. It read to Joseph exactly what words he should dictate. Martin would pause, or Oliver Cowdery would pause, write down what Joseph dictated from seeing actual words in the stone. And if that was the process which the church wants us to believe, then why would Joseph ever need to go back and change any words ever? Right?

Julia 20:38 Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Nemo 20:40 Because an omnipotent God would know that people are going to have difficulty with the word white and would give him the word pure in advance.

John Dehlin 20:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Already that's a problem.

Gerardo Sumano 20:49 Also, just one God, technically, it was interesting the. The scripture that she shows about lamentations to kind of just say well, the Bible also talks about skin of blackness or people changing from dark skin. If you read those passages, it's, it's not, first of all, it's not talking about a curse. It's not talking about black skin being compared to or associated with wickedness like the Book of Mormon does. It's talking about people's skin changing or going darker based on the fact that there's. Of the heat, it says, and also hungry. And so I, I, I just, it just, it just doesn't make any. Like her, her argument just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Nemo 21:40 Yeah. That's why it's important to read between the ellipses, because I did what Harada did and I went and looked up the verses. Yeah. And, and it says, their visage is black than, Than a coal. They are not known in the streets. Their skin cleaveth to their bones. It is withered. It has become like a stick. This is the description of people dying in a horrific way, by the sounds of it, rather than a curse that's been put upon people to mark them as being undesirable to another group of people.

Gerardo Sumano 22:03 Right. And, and then on the verse 10 that she also refers to is our skin is hot as an oven. Oven feverish from hunger. So it's just. Yeah, just very different from the Book of Mormon and God cursing people and turning their skin black because they're wicked.

Julia 22:23 Yeah. Well, I'm glad you clarified that because that's a really good thing to know that even what she's sharing isn't even helpful.

Nemo 22:31 Whenever they put ellipsis in, you know that they're hiding something and it's kind

John Dehlin 22:35 of obvious, but we'll just say it. The problem is the Book of Mormon's super racist. That was built on the, the mound builder myth, which was super racist. We've talked about that in previous LDS discussions episodes, and it's embarrassing to the modern church.

Julia 22:51 Okay, so there's another clip that I wanted to show really quick. It's called the Book of Mormon is not racist. And again, this comes from scripture. Plus her little TikTok.

Guest 4 23:02 Is the Book of Mormon racist. A lot of people get uncomfortable reading about the Lamanites skin of blackness. And you can watch my other videos talking specifically about that. But just take a second to consider what the Book of Mormon is doing at a high level. The message of the Book of Mormon is overwhelmingly inclusive and is about inviting all people to come unto Jesus Christ. There's a reason Elder Ahmed Corbett said that the Book of Mormon is the most racially and ethnically unifying book on the earth. At no point in the Book of Mormon is any individual or group excluded from the blessings of the Gospel on the basis of race or skin color. In fact, there's a lot of times the Book of Mormon talks about how the Lamanites were more righteous than the Nephites and how the Nephites are the ones who have to get their crap together. Like with the prophecies of Samuel, the Lamanite. The Book of Mormon is all about the power of the Gospel to break down cultural and ethnic barriers and unite us in Jesus Christ. Like with the Sons of Mosiah learning to serve with the Lamanites to come unto Christ. The only time of major peace in the Book of Mormon was in 4th Nephi, when the people finally let go of their tribalism and prioritize their common identity as children of God. There are a ton of Book of Mormon scriptures that preach the inclusive message of the Gospel. You can possibly really want to read all of them right now. But a favorite is, of course, how Nephi simply puts it, God denieth none that come unto him. Black and white bond and free, male and female, all are alike unto God. The Book of Mormon's message rejects racism and prejudice, and so should we. As far as how the Lamanite curse and the skin of blackness fits into all this, go read no I number 718. What is the skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon?

Nemo 24:28 Most thoughts.

John Dehlin 24:31 What is it the least racist book of all time?

Nemo 24:34 That's like that. That. Okay, so that gives me vibes of Jay and at Dennis saying that the LDS Church empowers women more than any other religious organization she knows of, and she really just needs to get to know other religious organization organizations. The other bit about how. Oh, well, the Book of Mormon talks about how the Sons of Messiah worked with the Lamanites. And that's like saying, oh yeah, the American military wasn't racist pre the removal of segregation. Look how entirely black units fought alongside entirely white units in the Second World War. Isn't that great? Well, there's still segregation at the heart of it, isn't there, Jasmine? And then the final bit is, I've lost my train of thought. Please save me.

John Dehlin 25:11 Ridiculous. And we're covering a lot of this on the the series with Matt Harris, the LDS discussions audience. If you've not been following Mormon stories, we've had a whole 17 episodes we've recorded on this post. Second Class Saints, the blacks, the black Mormons, and The struggle for racial equality. And yeah, it's true, the Book of Mormon has some universalistic messages because Joseph Smith, early in his days, you know, had some universalistic leanings or tendencies. But to try and claim that either the Mormon Church or the Book of Mormon aren't racist, aren't objectively, vehemently, disgustingly racist, just is. The words escape me.

Nemo 25:55 And that's that whole, like, that whole, God invites all to come into him black and white. Wonderful. It's like, okay, black and white. So both are invited. But one group, as is made clear by the Book of Mormon, needs a curse removing first. So they come unto God and God will fix them of that part, and then they will all be made white in heaven. And that forms a part of Mormon doctrine, moving down that, you know, little Lamanite children become whiter when they become in righteous families. Right, we'll get to that later.

John Dehlin 26:19 But also, does black and white, you know, omit any other potential shades of skin color?

Nemo 26:25 Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano 26:26 How about the Book of Mormon? Well, how about that quote that the Book of Mormon is the most racially and ethnically unified book on earth?

John Dehlin 26:34 Oh, wow. I wonder if we should ask other races and ethnicities if they agree.

Nemo 26:39 Jasmine Ahmed Corbett said that. So he's, you know, part of the. The incoming.

John Dehlin 26:46 The one black general authority on the payroll says it.

Nemo 26:50 That's the definition of my black friend

John Dehlin 26:53 said, so therefore, all races at all ethnicities worldwide. I get it. Makes sense. It makes sense.

Nemo 27:00 The church is equivalently got like, I've got a black friend and he says it's all fine. So.

John Dehlin 27:04 Oh, my God, I can't too much. Go ahead, Julie.

Julia 27:07 So there's another clip that I wanted to show from your recent, I guess, recent sort of jubilee episode that you were on. Yeah, very great work. I recommend everyone go watch the. The full video and then watch the response on Mormon stories.

John Dehlin 27:20 Just for those who don't know, there's a series on jubilee called Middle Ground, where they bring in people that disagree and let them talk candidly. And so they brought on me and a few ex Mormons to sort of go against some allegedly, you know, faithful Mormons, which included Cardinalis and Kwaku, you know, millennial apologists. So, yeah, this time came up and

Nemo 27:46 the star of the show. Who is the guy who's about to start speaking? This guy? Yeah, for me, he's the star of the show.

John Dehlin 27:52 All right. Nemo's bucking for a raise.

Nemo 27:56 I've never. I wasn't actually talking about you, John. I was talking about the Guy that is so confused about the church's teachings that he's like, oh, yeah, that would be cultish. But the church doesn't do that. And yeah, they do.

Kwaku Defends the Book of Mormon Curse

John Dehlin 28:07 All right, let's roll the clip.

Gerardo Sumano 28:11 I just want to say something. So this idea that people are thinking when they read that on the Book of Mormon or prophets or whoever's teaching it, that Nephites are becoming into, you know, sub Saharan Africans, I don't think that was ever the idea of it or people or even, you know, Brigham Young or, or Joseph Smith, when they would talk about what was happening here in the Book of Mormon, they were talking about the indigenous people in the Americas. And I mean, I am from Mexico. And how I always understood it, how it was always taught to me was that it was the indigenous people from the Americans who were, you know, their skin was made dark and my skin therefore was dark because I was a descendant of the Laymanites. And, and the curse that came upon the laymanites. So this idea that, you know, the white Nephites were becoming into, into Africans, I, I don't, I, I don't know. I've never read it that way. I'm not sure if you guys quake

Nemo 29:17 who's getting his racism confused because he's confusing the, the curse that was put upon the Lamanites to essentially explain why, to explain why the Native Americans were there. He's confusing that with the curse of Cain, which is those of African descent not being allowed the priesthood. Right, right. So he's getting his racism confused.

Gerardo Sumano 29:37 And they're very different.

Nemo 29:38 Because they're very different.

Gerardo Sumano 29:39 Native Americans were never, you know, never banned from the priesthood or, or Mexicans or people from indigenous descent.

Nemo 29:47 No. And the reason the church had trouble in Brazil with the Sao Paulo temple and the reason that the ban was eventually lifted was because a lot of people in Brazil have got African ancestry because it was one of the big drop off points of the slave trade. You look at the triangle, it goes Brazil, then up to the States, then back over to Europe.

John Dehlin 30:06 Right?

Guest 4 30:07 Yeah.

Julia 30:08 And I will say, just to hark on, just through your episodes with Matt Harris, he talks about the Sao Paulo, Brazil temple and how that was one of the pins for getting the ban removed for special people. So that's great that you brought that up for sure.

John Dehlin 30:21 Yeah, yeah. I, you know, there was, there was that moment in that interview, Gerardo, where Kwaku kind of pulls the dark skinned trump card and says, hey, you're all white. You really can't speak to this. Let the dark Guy in the room talk. Gerardo, you're literally.

Gerardo Sumano 30:40 Yeah. I was going to say, like, it's not even about you. He's not even talking about you.

Nemo 30:44 Yeah. He's not the dark that it's talking about.

Gerardo Sumano 30:46 Yeah.

John Dehlin 30:48 What I was going to ask Gerardo is.

Gerardo Sumano 30:49 I was going to say, like, his curse is worse than the Lamanite curse because.

John Dehlin 30:53 Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano 30:53 The curse of the church thought that he had. Or people like, Like. Like WAU had was worse because he didn't allow them the priesthood. So.

Nemo 31:03 Or sealing in the temple with their families.

Guest 4 31:05 Exactly.

Gerardo's Personal Perspective as a Mexican Latter-day Saint

John Dehlin 31:06 Well, all. All I wanted to ask Gerardo, is you are Mexican. The Book of Mormon would be talking about your ancestors because you technically probably grew up being told you were a laymanite. Do you want to tell us how you read the Book of Mormon in the Skin of Blackness as an actual Lamanite?

Gerardo Sumano 31:24 Yeah, I mean, I would say most people in Mexico, if you go and ask them, they'll say. They'll say to you that. That they consider themselves Lemonites. I was taught I was a Lamanite. You know, I. I've told this story multiple times, some Mormon stories where, like, just a couple years ago, I. I messaged my mom and I said, mom, is. Is it your understanding that the reason why my skin is dark is because I. Because the Lamanites were cursed and I'm a descendant of the Lamanites? She said, yes. And. And that's what people understand. That's what people believe. That's what they were taught by the prophets. That's. I mean, it's still what it's being taught. When leaders go down there and talk to. In state conferences and, and, or, you know, whatever type of conference where general authorities are talking down in Mexico, they tell them you are the descendants of Lehi. So it is very clear. And, and general authorities still teach till today to the Mexicans that they are descendants of. Of the Lamanites.

Nemo 32:23 All right, so let's say that.

John Dehlin 32:25 Oh, go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo 32:26 In the same way that the people of the Pacific Islands were told they were Hagoth's people, Right?

John Dehlin 32:31 Yeah.

Nemo 32:32 There's this character in the Book of Mormon who set sail and. And supposedly found the lands of the Pacific and they've been told, you know, they are descendants of these characters of the Book of Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano 32:40 So also, if you have any question about what the Church believes today about who the Lamanites are, just go and watch the Book of Mormon videos on. On YouTube that the church is still releasing. They just released new ones a couple months ago or a few weeks ago. And look at who are the Lamanites and what they look like. They don't look like white Utah actors. So it is very clear that the church is doing a big effort to represent who they believe. The layman are on the Book of Mormon videos.

John Dehlin 33:09 Do a test right now. Okay, so Julia, Nemo, you guys are the judges. First question is, is Gerardo's skin darker than the rest of our skin? Yes or no, Julia? Yes, Nemo.

Nemo 33:21 Yeah.

John Dehlin 33:22 Okay, next question. Gerardo, is it a tattoo? Is it edible skin?

Gerardo Sumano 33:31 No.

John Dehlin 33:31 It's not your face.

Nemo 33:33 Is it painting?

Julia 33:34 He is wearing a black shirt.

Nemo 33:36 He's wearing a black shirt. He got me. Is that black shirt of mixed fabrics? Because if so, the Old Testament God will have a few things to say about that as well.

Guest 4 33:45 I mean, isn't this ridiculous?

John Dehlin 33:47 Like you're right, Nemo. It's almost hilarious except that that these answers are being given to investigators and young members on TikTok to. To help them justify their continued loyalty.

Nemo 33:59 And as we're going to get into this belief did cause some real harm amongst Native American populations because point that we'll get to later. Harado grew up in the church post the 1920s, which means that the dominant narrative is the Lamanites are those of Central and South America. Right, Right. As well as the sort of Native Americans. It's everyone. Whereas there was a lot more focus on the tribes of North America Pre sort of 1920s. And that's the people will definitely be focusing on, you know where it says in Doctrine and Covenants they went and and formed a mission amongst the Lamanites. Right. Missionary work amongst the laymanites. We'll get to that. But very specific tribes.

Gerardo Sumano 34:35 I just want to say one more thing. If the church really believed what Jasmine is teaching here, they should instead of hiring her to do tick tock videos, they should be hiring her to do the casting for the Book of Mormon video.

John Dehlin 34:47 No, they should hire her as prophet sir and revelator for the church because she's literally interpreting our most sacred text and changing the fundamental narrative of the Book of Mormon and the teachings of 150 years of prophets. Here's the revelators, which is the whole purpose of of this series.

Nemo 35:07 She's incredibly powerful.

John Dehlin 35:08 Yeah, yeah.

Nemo 35:09 And, and just before we move on, can we just appreciate the camera work in that jubilee video? The way that they caught Carden just looking incredibly uncomfortable with the entire thing. The fact that they brought the receipts and just put the scripture up on screen so everyone could just See that the scripture does in fact say that. I forgot how good the editing on that video was, but you should definitely all go watch it.

John Dehlin 35:26 It was good.

Julia 35:27 Yeah. I was just thinking about. With the. Was it. Is it Corbett. How do you say his.

John Dehlin 35:30 Corbin.

Julia 35:32 No, no. Yeah, Corbett. Yeah. Where he's saying if. If the Book of Mormon truly is the most. What did he say? The most?

Nemo 35:37 Racially unifying text.

Julia 35:39 Unifying text. Then why was it used for hundreds of years to justify racism? Like. Right, right. So that's one of the main things.

Nemo 35:47 Not even just Native American aimed racism, but you know, towards African people or people of African descent. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano 35:55 If what he's saying is true, that means that for over a hundred years, prophets, seers and revelators were either not reading it or not understanding the Book of Mormon. The most big problem of scripture and

John Dehlin 36:06 treating people of color, you know, in certain ways as a result of those interpretations, which is where the rubber meets the road, is how people are treated in horrible ways.

Julia 36:18 Exactly.

John Dehlin 36:19 Yeah.

Julia 36:20 All right, Julia, and I've said this before, but I just want to make this point again. To create a new narrative around the meaning of the words skin of blackness is to deny the decades of racism within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the lived experiences of hundreds of Native Americans.

John Dehlin 36:34 Yeah.

Julia 36:34 So I just wanted to make that point really clear.

John Dehlin 36:36 Yeah.

Julia 36:36 Okay. So the first thing we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about the Lamanite history in the church, starting with 1830. And we're going to start right where you were talking about Nemo with the mission to the Lamanites. Does someone want to help Go through this slide with.

Nemo 36:49 I'll jump in.

Julia 36:50 Okay, perfect.

Nemo 36:50 It's fine. Joseph Smith sent Oliver Cowdery, Parley P. Pratt, Peter Whitmer, and Zyber Peterson to preach amongst the Lamanites. In the History of Parley P. Pratt, as published in the Latter Day Saint Millennial Star, he says that the Brethren went to New York and preached amongst the Seneca and Onondaga nations, as well as the Wyandots, Shawnee and Delaware nations, because the Brethren did not have a license to preach among the Native Americans. Indian agent, Indian agent Richard Cummins expelled the Mormons from the area.

Julia 37:22 Thank you. So, yeah. So right away, he's sending men on missions. They're going to New York and other areas. They're going to Ohio, parts of Missouri.

John Dehlin 37:30 And for those who are not viewing but just listening, will you read the years on that slide, Julia?

Nemo 37:36 Oh, yeah.

Julia 37:37 So, yeah.

Nemo 37:37 So I Miss those.

Julia 37:39 Yeah. So it's 1830 to 1831.

John Dehlin 37:42 First two years the church is existing, it's really clear who the Lamanites are right away.

Nemo 37:48 Published in 1830. And straight away. Yeah, they've looked at Lamanites in the Book of Mormon and gone.

Julia 37:53 Right.

Nemo 37:54 We know who they are. Let's go preach to them.

John Dehlin 37:55 Okay.

Julia 37:56 Yeah. So right away, Joseph Smith, right after organizing the church, he starts sending men on missions or organizing these missions and then sending them off.

Gerardo Sumano 38:02 Because the Book of Mormon was written

Julia 38:04 for who, The Lamanites.

John Dehlin 38:06 Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Nemo 38:08 So it's pretty important that we know who they are.

John Dehlin 38:10 Right? Yeah, that they know who they are.

Nemo 38:13 The book can be given to them.

John Dehlin 38:16 Yeah.

Julia 38:17 Right. So there's another. There's another slide. It says that In July of 1831, Joseph Smith received a revelation for a man named Sidney Gilbert that stated, also, let my servant Sidney Gilbert obtain license. Behold, here is wisdom, and whoso readeth, let him understand that he may send goods unto the Lamanites even by whom he will, he will, as clerks employed in his service, and thus the gospel may be preached unto them. So again, this is more missionary work through this sending of goods.

Nemo 38:46 Trying to do a workaround is getting Native Americans to work as clerks for him so he can teach them the gospel. Did I understand that?

Julia 38:53 Yeah, I think so. And there was a lot of workarounds, too, with this previous slide that we were talking about where they were kicked out because they didn't have license. They weren't licensed to do this. One of the reasons to get around that is polygamy. And we can talk about that in a. In a couple slides. So, Gerardo, do you want to read this one?

John Dehlin 39:12 Okay, sure.

Gerardo Sumano 39:14 Joseph Smith, Jr. July 1831. Some early writers attributed speaking in tongues and other acts as having come from the Mormons imitating the Native Americans. Their conduct, the Mormons in Kirkland grew more and more eccentric and absurd. Sometimes they imitated the grotesque antics of the wild Indian in knocking down, sculpting, and tearing out the bowels of the of his victim, thus anticipating the hour of their fancied mission to those lost sons of Jacob. Indeed, it is reported by an eyewitness that at first, the laying hands on the heads of their converts to confer the gift of the Holy Spirit generally produced an instantaneous protestation of both body and mind, often followed by a wonderful gift of tongues, and was supposed in Indian dialects, which indeed none could understand except by direct inspiration.

John Dehlin 40:14 And then the source of that is J.B. turner. Mormonism in all ages. 1842. All right, what is this take?

Julia 40:22 Yeah, so this one. I pulled this one because in the early days in Kirtland, the members, when they were converted or when they're getting the Holy Ghost put on their heads, they would act in such a way they would. They were mimicking what they. What they view the Native Americans as doing. And so this one, this writer says the. The grotesque antiques of the antics of the wild Indian. And then he talks about other things that were. That were followed. And I just thought that was really interesting that. That they're kind of even. Even as far as the gift of tongues, where they. Where they are filled with the Holy Ghost and they start speaking almost sort of nonsense words that can't really be translated. But some of the members do translate them. Not correctly, but they are. They're just saying that these are the meaning of the words. But anyway, I just thought this was a really interesting point that they're. That they're mimicking what they see as the actions of the Native Americans.

Nemo 41:09 And isn't it really interesting, as part of the ongoing change of narrative in the church, that when we grew up with the article of faith, we believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, interpretation of tongues, etc. Right. That. That was always taught certainly to me as, oh, some people are good at languages and some people are not. When is actually it is the gift of tongues as understood by a lot of sort of evangelical churches and other sort of Protestant church groups as just speaking in nonsense languages as moved upon by the Holy Ghost. Right. And that was part of our church's history too. But we've moved past that and we're like, oh, no, that's not what that means. We're now just talking about people being good at languages. So there's the. It will become a theme later. But the church likes to kind of evolve its narrative around the early.

Julia 41:49 Exactly. Yeah. That's a great example.

Nemo 41:52 What words mean.

Gerardo Sumano 41:53 Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I mean, if you think about it, if they were really doing this with trying to imitate indigenous people, it is because they're. They. There's this belief, you know, that the laymanites have this traditions that come from Lehi and Nephi and Old Israel that they can bring into Mormonism. I mean, that. That's. That's my guess as to why they would be doing this. Is that your understanding, Julia?

Julia 42:24 Yeah. So one thing that I understood is this. This. There's an excellent book called Making Lamanites. It's by Historian Matthew Garrett, and he talks about this as well, where the early Saints really thought that they were going to be integrating into a Native American church, not kind of the other way around. They thought that once they heard the gospel, they would, they would, they would leave for joy and then they would all join the church and that they would take leadership positions and things like that. And so I think the Saints were trying to make themselves kind of fit into this, like what you're saying, like, oh, this is what Lehi would have done or this is what Nephi would have done or, or whatever, because this is their culture. And so I think that that's, I think you're right in, in saying that

Gerardo Sumano 42:59 this is very interesting. I'm just thinking about how today, if you go to the pyramids in Tulum, those. There's this big family of, of tourist guides who will charge LDs or people or Mormons for tour. For Mormon tours. Well, they'll give you a private tour of the, of the pyramids in Tulum and they'll explain to you how it was there where Lehi sailed and how the pyramid. This pyramid means. Or it represents the celestial kingdom, and this pyramid represents a terrestrial kingdom, and this is a telestial kingdom. And, and this is how they were doing the temple ritual back then. And, and they, you know, they're interpreting everything on the pyramids in of Tulum based on more miss. And understanding that, you know, the culture of, of the Mayas or in Tulum is, you know, it came from the, from the Lamanites or the Nephites or Lehi.

Julia 44:02 Yeah. And this is in. Is this in Guatemala? Where is that located?

Gerardo Sumano 44:06 This is in Mexico.

Julia 44:06 Mexico. Oh, Mexico.

Guest 4 44:07 Okay.

Julia 44:08 Yeah. Because there's a lot of people that push for the, the Book of Mor taking place down there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So this next slide, most face.

Gerardo Sumano 44:18 Wait, Nemo, you want to say something?

Nemo 44:20 I. I don't even know what to begin to say. If there's a part of history that, that Mormons can rewrite and make money out of, I guess they'll do it. Like, it's so weird. Yeah, it's like that video, you know that video the church put out about, like, how could the Book of Mormon not be true? Because you would have to produce this many pages and you'd have to look at ancient civilizations. And when they did ancient civil civilizations, they did Stonehenge, which is like 5,000 years old. Then they did Machu Picchu, which is like newer than the events of the Book of Mormon. And it's just like, they have no understanding of the timeline of these places like Tulum. Like, they just don't work with the Book of Mormon timeline.

Gerardo Sumano 45:00 Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin 45:01 It's crazy.

Julia 45:02 Yeah. No, I will say, just on a kind of a side note, the church made a recent video called Scripture Legacy, I think is what it's called. And they show in there these mounds from. From here in the United States. And one of them I've been to. Oh, my gosh, what is it called? Cahokia. The Cahokia Mound, which is a huge mound. The base is bigger than the pyramids in Egypt, but so they're even. The church seems to be thinking like, oh, let's move the narrative to here, rather than. Rather than anywhere where here isn't here in the United States.

John Dehlin 45:31 Okay.

Julia 45:31 Yeah, yeah. They seem to be moving towards that. That vision. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 45:36 It's like whack a mole. The Church will put the Book of Mormon wherever they need to in response to whatever question or concern there is. If it's like, oh, oh, wait, the time that it takes for people to walk in the Book of Mormon, they're able to get long distances in a really short amount of time. Well, let's put it in Central America. And then it's like, oh, wait, that's racist. Or, oh, no, you know, that that means there has to be two hill cumorahs because Joseph Smith had a camorra up in New York, but one. And, okay, let's move it to North America. And they're just always moving around the locations based on whatever immediate question they're trying to answer. But part of my problem with Neil and, you know, Jasmine and others is that they'll give opposing answers to two different questions without having the intellectual honesty and consistency of. Of trying to reconcile the two, in my opinion.

Julia 46:33 Yeah.

John Dehlin 46:34 Yeah. All right, where are we going next, Julia?

Joseph Smith, Lamanites, and Polygamy

Julia 46:37 Okay, so we're going to polygamy next. John, do you want to read this one?

John Dehlin 46:40 All right. Native American Polygamy, 1831. In 1831, Joseph Smith received a revelation that the Saints should marry Native Americans. Quote, verily, I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. But ye shall know when ye receive a fullness by reason of the anointing. For it is my will that in time ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites that their posterity may become white and delightsome and just. For even now their females are more virtuous than the Gentiles and I just, you know, I just have to say, let's look really closely at, at this quote. This is, number one, Joseph Smith, the Mormon Church's founding prophet. Number two, it's in 1831, a year after the Book of Mormon was published. In the second year of the church's existence, he's saying who the Lamanites are. He's, he's, he's, you know, acknowledging that they have dark skin. And then he's teaching this horrific racist idea that if they're righteous, not only did God curse them with the dark skin in the first place, but that if they're righteous, if they intermingle with the righteous, you know, Mormons of the day, that slowly their dark skin will become light and white because white and light represents good and righteousness. Not according to Joseph Smith. According to God and Jesus themselves. Am I, Gerardo, am I getting that wrong? Is that what we're supposed to read there?

Gerardo Sumano 48:21 I. I mean, that's what I'm getting.

John Dehlin 48:23 Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano 48:24 And as I Can you put it back on the screen?

John Dehlin 48:26 Absolutely.

Gerardo Sumano 48:27 And as I'm reading it, it's, it's interesting. This is because this is being attributed to Joseph Smith. Right. So remember on the video from Jasmine where she says, oh, Joseph Smith never believed that, that, that the Lamanites were gonna become white and the lights on. That's why he went and changed it in the Book of Mormon to say pure and delight some. Here is Joseph Smith saying, you know, that the. That go and take the wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, so they prosperity becomes white and delights them.

Nemo 49:01 But then Joseph Smith didn't necessarily understand the Book of Mormon as well as maybe we might think, because he's saying, here she's taking to you the wives of the Lamanites and Nephites. Yeah.

John Dehlin 49:14 Know what the Book of Mormon means better than Joseph Smith himself?

Nemo 49:18 Well, here they might have a point because the Nephites were destroyed, so they have no. Like that they're taking for life. They have no descendants. They were wiped out.

John Dehlin 49:31 But also, this is Joseph Smith introducing polygamy very, very early on. And how disgusting is it that he's sending these Mormon missionaries to convert the Native Americans to the Mormon Church. But, you know, while you're at it, let's go ahead and just take a marriage, wives, just while you're at it, you know, because, you know, they're, they're dark. So it's. It, you know, they're not worth that much. So let's go ahead. And if you want to Add a couple as your own wives. It doesn't matter if they want to be your wives. You missionaries, you go down there and make a few of them your wives if you want to. Julia, how does that. How does that, you know, feel for your. Your female sensibilities? I'm just curious.

Julia 50:09 That's really gross. Like, there's a lot of history with the women in the church, the Lamanite or the Native American women in the church. That's just really gross. It's all of it, actually. Like, polygamy, everything. It's just.

John Dehlin 50:19 Yeah.

Nemo 50:20 Can we just make sure I'm understanding correctly? Because I'm not quite seeing in there where it says polygamy rather than just some.

Julia 50:27 And that's a good thing to point out, because some of the men he's talking to are not married, but some of them are married. And so that's the audience. That's a good thing to point out, though, too. Yeah.

John Dehlin 50:35 But my understanding is this is the first time that Joseph. That Joseph Smith introduced polygamy to the church, even though the Book of Mormon condemned was this revelation about missionaries going to the Native Americans in the Missouri area where Joseph first introduced the idea of polygamy. Is that wrong, Julia?

Julia 50:56 Well, I guess you could say who is this audience? Because are they already married or are they not? And so. And I know that some of them. Some of these people were married. And so, like, I guess you could say these are the beginnings of polygamy.

John Dehlin 51:05 But he didn't distinguish, right?

Julia 51:06 Yeah, he's not distinguishing.

John Dehlin 51:07 And the church itself, in its Gospel Topics essay on polygamy, says that there's indications about polygamy as early as 1831. It. The church says it in its own Gospel Topics essay, and this has to be what they're referring to.

Julia 51:24 Yeah, that would make the most sense. Yeah.

John Dehlin 51:26 No, there's.

Nemo 51:26 I just wanted to.

Julia 51:27 Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 51:28 There's no other document.

Nemo 51:29 I just wanted to lock that down because, you know, it doesn't say in here it's specifically polygamy, but that makes a lot of sense.

John Dehlin 51:35 No, these missionaries were largely married, right? Yeah.

Julia 51:39 And then to the people who want to deny polygamy, I will point out that this letter wasn't published until 1861. But it's. So this man is remembering. Or W.W. phelps to Brigham Young is saying that he remembers Joseph saying these things. And so. Yeah.

John Dehlin 51:51 Okay.

Julia 51:52 And then, as I've said before, some historians have speculated that the reason Joseph Smith did this is because white men who married Native American women enjoyed greater access to Indian communities or even land. So, like, if you're married, you can get in, and if you're married to a Native American, you can get in easier to these communities and teach the gospel or take their land. And so some historians have speculated that one of the reasons why he did that, to help them.

Gerardo Sumano 52:15 Let me just say one more thing. I know there, like we just mentioned, there is some doubt whether this document or whether this was accurate, an accurate representation of what Joseph Smith taught back in 1831. However, this is coming from a letter from W.W. phelps. And let's remember, Wwfels was. He printed the first edition of the Book of Mormon. He was someone that was super close to Joseph Smith. So if he's understanding of who the Laymanites are and how the Lamanite skin was going to become whiter, was wrong. And Jasmine's is correct. I mean, that just doesn't make a lot of sense. This is the guy who was as close to Joseph and the Book of Mormon, you know, as anybody.

Nemo 52:58 So he there at the time. More importantly, Jasmine's looking back on this with presentism, Right. She's putting her modern vices or her modern, you know, sensibilities onto what she's reading. Phelps was there. Yeah, that's good to back you up there, Gerardo.

Guest 4 53:15 Good point.

Julia 53:16 Well, and then there are other sources that also support polygamy among the natives and a polygamy. Polygamy with these men. So one of them comes from Ezra Booth. And this was published the Ohio Star in a newspaper in 1831, and then it was also published in Edie Howe's Mormonism Unveiled. Nemo, do you want to read this one?

Nemo 53:34 Lamanite marriage, Polygamy, Ezra Booth, 1831.

Julia 53:38 And I will point out that Ezra Booth was already married, just to make that clear.

Nemo 53:41 Okay, thanks. In addition to this and to cooperate with it, it has been made known by Revelation that it will be pleasing to the Lord should they form a matrimonial alliance with the natives, and by this means the elders who comply with the things so pleasing to the Lord and for which the Lord has promised to bless those who do it abundantly gain a residence in the Indian territory independent of the agent. It has been made known to one who has left his wife in the state of New York that he is entirely free from his wife, and he is at liberty to take him a wife from among the Lamanites. There you go. Polygamy. It was easily perceived that this permission was perfectly suited to his desires. I have frequently heard him State that the Lord had made it known to him that he is as free from his wife as from any other woman. And the only crime that I have ever heard alleged against her is she is violently opposed to Mormonism.

John Dehlin 54:37 What is this thing, Julia?

Julia 54:39 So I guess reading it again, because he's saying that he left his wife and so Joseph, or he's trying to point out that he's. This man is now single. So the church started in New York and his wife is in New York. Anyway. So like, But Joseph is also saying, but even above that, he's saying that it's, it'll. It's pleasing unto the Lord that they have matrimonial alliances with the natives and that they can. They highlight that he says independent of the agent because like the agent kicks. Kicks them out in 1830 or 1831. So he's saying. So this seems to be a point to, to like move around that to preach the Gospel.

John Dehlin 55:12 It's also very consistent with DNC132. It's just this language of Joseph Smith, in the name of Jesus, telling men who they are allowed to marry and the women are basically chattel that just get assigned as property to the white Mormon men who Joseph deems are worthy to marry them. Is that, is that not on Brand for DNC132, Joseph Smith Mormonism?

Julia 55:36 It is I will say too that women, women didn't have a lot of rights back then anyway. They were, they were basically a movable good and that's all they were allotted were these movable goods were the things that weren't. They weren't land or they weren't big amounts of property. So like, so like to say that like Mormonism isn't unique in its sexism in this age. Like, like this is just how women were treated. This is just their rights. And so like, yes, it is on brand with DNC132. Women are just chattel. Women don't really have a choice. So yeah, both I guess can be true.

Nemo 56:03 If we look into to the end of this, if you put it on screen, just give you a challenge there. So he said, I frequently heard him state this, this man, Escher Booth, that the Lord has made it known to him that he is free from his wife as any other woman. The Lord made that known in him, not the state. He's not divorced from her. Right. The Lord has told him that he's free of her and he's just left her behind. He hasn't taken any legal steps that that was what this would Indicate. And the only crime that his wife, who's left behind, has had alleged against her is she's violently opposed to Mormonism. So she clearly blames Mormonism for the fact that her husband went off and got married to a native woman and didn't actually end things with her and just left, which means that she's still seen as married, which means that she's not free to, you know, be supported by anyone else or to get another husband or whatever. Right. That's between the lines.

John Dehlin 56:52 There is this also Joseph putting himself above the law, basically. Divorce laws, marriage laws are I, Joseph, get to decide. I trump all.

Julia 57:03 Well, that's not new. I feel like that's a yes. Joseph. I feel like he frequently put himself above the law.

John Dehlin 57:08 Yeah.

Nemo 57:08 Yeah.

John Dehlin 57:08 Okay. All right. Yeah.

Julia 57:11 Okay. So moving to the next one. Okay, so again, this is another one about Lamanite marriage, and this one's coming from Martin Harris. And this one, I will be clear. This one was published in Naked Truths about Mormonism in 1888. But he's saying that he get. He hears about this in 1831. Gerardo, do you want to read this one?

John Dehlin 57:30 Sure.

Gerardo Sumano 57:32 Lemonade. Marriage. Martin Harris, 1831/ 1888. In a publication titled Naked Truths About Mormonism, Martin Harris reiterated that he was to take a Lamanite wife. Martin Harris claimed he had a revelation when he first came to Kirtland for. For him to go to Missouri and obtain a Lamanite squaw. Squaw, squaw, squaw. For a wife to aid them in propagating Mormonism. Martin told me soon after Joseph the Prophet left Kirtland that two years before, he had told him that as his wife had left him, he needed a woman as other men.

John Dehlin 58:13 All right, Julia, so what's this telling us?

Julia 58:15 So this one is just. This one's not about polygamy specifically because Martin Harris, his wife did leave him, Lucy Harris. And so he's now he's free from women who's from marriage. And so Joseph is encouraging him to take a Lamanite. This is a. This is a really squad is. I think it's a racial term or a sexist term. So he. So Joseph is encouraging him to take a Lamanite or Native American wife. So because he is single now.

John Dehlin 58:37 So it's basically corroborating evidence that Joseph was down with. With Mormon leaders taking Native American wives as their own.

Julia 58:46 Right, Right. So the last three sides were slides were about Joseph Smith encouraging marriage among the Native Americans and then also polygamy. Among the Native Americans.

John Dehlin 58:55 Got it. Okay.

Gerardo Sumano 58:56 Because. Okay, so this is a question I had for you, Julia, a while back is when we were talking about when Joseph tried to change the Book of Mormon, or not try to. When he supposedly changed the Book of Mormon, a couple scriptures where it talks about the layman at skin becoming. Instead of becoming white and delightsome, it becomes pure and delightsome. And, and then we, I, I speculated that maybe this was Joseph realizing that it was gonna be hard to fulfill that, that promise that the Book of Mormon has, and it would be something that's test that, that people could test really easily. You know, if a laymanite becomes a member of the church and then their skin doesn't turn white, then, you know, how, how do you square that with the Book of Mormon saying that they're supposed to turn white? And I speculated that maybe the reason why he changed it was because he realized that was never. That was actually not going to happen. And I'm wondering if all this talk about when he's encouraging Mormon leaders to go and marry Lamanites and then, I mean, we have at least one account where he talks about literally, really explicitly make their offspring become whiter. You know, if that was him trying to make that, that prophecy fulfilled, and then when he was not successful, then he just ended up changing the Book of Mormon just to read Pure and delight some. But I, I don't know. That's just speculative on my part.

Julia 1:00:22 No, I, I think that's a really good speculation because in the 1830s, Joseph Smith seems to have that idea of white laymanites and their skin color changing, and then the Lamanites aren't. Or the. Excuse me, I'm getting it. My language confused. The Native Americans were not receptive to the gospel, and so not very many of them joined the church. And so I wonder if in the 1840s, because you pointed out that that one change was made in 1842, I wonder if he's realizing that this isn't really happening and when they had to kind of change the Book of Mormon narrative to, like, help it more apply to them rather than to the, to the Lamanites. So I think that's a really good. A really good guess or speculation or whatever.

Gerardo Sumano 1:00:55 Yeah. Okay.

Julia 1:00:57 Okay. So this other one I think is really good too. This is, this is from Joseph Smith in a letter. This is written by Joseph Smith in a letter to N.C. saxton on January 4th of 1833. So the Prophet stated, the Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our Western tribes of Indians having been found through the ministration of a holy angel, translated into our own language by the gift and power of God, after having been hit up in the earth for the last 1400 years, containing the word of God which was delivered unto them by it, we learned that our western tribes of Indians are descendants from Joseph, from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them.

Nemo 1:01:36 I have thoughts.

Julia 1:01:38 What are your thoughts?

Nemo 1:01:40 Well, straight away, this for me comes along with the idea of the hill, Cumorah as well, is that we have to look what Joseph Smith was actively teaching and believing. So Joseph Smith taught that that hill was the same hill where this battle took place, where millions of people died. And then you've got a BYU archaeologist comes along later and says, that is a clean hill. There's nothing there. And that causes apologists to have to scramble and panic and go, well, where are we going to put the hill then? We have to put it somewhere else. Well, no, you don't. You should have to accept that Joseph claimed it was a certain place, and now you can't find any evidence. And it's similarly here, the tribes of Western Native Americans, if you can't find any DNA that matches amongst them to, you know, people from the Middle east, that has to be a problem. You can't just shift that by going, oh, well, some people in South America. Well, no, no, no. They. It's not exclusive. They may also be part of it. You know, Joseph didn't say only the forefathers of Western tribes of Indians. But the point is that that needs to be a focus. The forefathers, the Book of Mormons, a record of the forefathers, the Western tribes of Indians. So if the Western tribes of Indians don't match up, then that is a problem. And I'm sure we'll get to that later.

Guest 4 1:02:46 But.

Julia 1:02:46 Right.

Nemo 1:02:47 Really, I feel the need to really be specific about that.

Julia 1:02:50 No, that's good. And then during this time, too, Joseph was sending these men to missions. And there's a story of Oliver Cowdery going to the Delaware Indians. And he stands up in their tent and he's just telling them that they're. That the Book of Mormon is about them. And he's very, very clearly connecting, making these connections between. You are the Lamanites. You are descendants from this man who came out of Jerusalem to here, to. I don't remember where he was at the time, Ohio or New York. I can't remember where the Delawares were located. But yeah, very clear direction from Joseph Smith saying that these. These specific tribes were Native American, were the Lamanites. And never at any point do I hear Joseph saying that these tribes are Lamanites and these tribes are not. To him and to everyone, all the early saints, all of Native Americans were all Lamanites. There was no distinction there.

John Dehlin 1:03:35 Not just the tribes in North America, Central and South America as well.

Julia 1:03:41 Yeah, I think that's. That's accurate because he also points to Mexico and the lower areas. Like, people talk about Guatemala and stuff like that. I'm pretty sure he. Although I don't know how aware Joseph was of these. Of the individuals. But if, But. But even that's just a. That was a cultural mindset, everyone thought. And there's a book here that's by Dan Vogel. It's an amazing book. It's called the Book of Mormon Origins or the Indian Origins in the Book of Mormon. And he talks about how everyone had the mindset that if you. If they're Native Americans, they're the lost tribes of Israel. And so that wasn't just the tribes and the Native Americans in America. It was down in South America as well.

John Dehlin 1:04:14 And really cool. Really quick, Julia, tell us again how this. This slide is supporting something not in sync with. With what Jasmine and Neil and others are trying to argue. This is just laying continued groundwork that. That Joseph Smith believed that the Native Americans around him were the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon. Is that what. Or is it something more specific?

Julia 1:04:42 No, that's why. That's how I read it, because she was saying. She's trying to say that it's the Joseph Smith didn't know or he didn't call these people this way, or. Or even the change that was made that we'll talk about later in the Book of Mormon that says the principal ancestors or among the ancestors. In Joseph's mind, that was the case, that there was all the ancestors of the Native Americans were the Lamanites.

John Dehlin 1:05:02 Yeah, got it.

Guest 4 1:05:03 Yeah.

The Story of Zelph and the White Lamanite

John Dehlin 1:05:05 All right.

Julia 1:05:07 Okay. So this one is a story that I really like. John, do you want to read this story?

John Dehlin 1:05:11 Yeah. This is story of Zelf, the White Lamanite from 1834. This is where the. The YouTube channel Zelf on the Shelf ultimately derived its name from. But let's read the story of Zelf. So in the history of the Church, a story comes from Zion's Camp, which was a truck in which the brethren found an uncovered grave. This is from, I guess, History of the Church, 1838-1856, Volume A. And here's what it says. Quote, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us we had seen was a white Lamanite. So I think, if I understand it, Joseph's tool around Missouri with some other Mormons, they're mad at the state of Missouri because, you know, the Mormons are trying to have settlements in Missouri, but the Missourians hate the Mormons. There's some tension, animosity between them. And it almost comes to war because Joseph brings a bunch of, of his followers with sort of an army to take down to Missouri to fight the Missourians over their conflicts. And so while they're doing that, they, they come across a skeleton. And so they see the skeleton. And so here it is. So I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us we had seen was a white Lamanite, A large, thick set man and a man of God. His name was Zelf. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onondagus, who was known from the hill Cumorah or Eastern Sea to the Rocky Mountains. His name was Zelf. The curse was taken from him, Zelf, or at least in part, one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling while in battle years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs during a last great struggle with the Lamanites and Nephites.

Nemo 1:07:18 I.

John Dehlin 1:07:19 Go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo 1:07:20 I wish that we had this skeleton. I wish like Joseph had kept it and we had it because modern, modern sort of post mortem techniques, we would be able to work out just how much of this is nonsense because Joseph's basically found a skeleton and gone. Right. I'm gonna go full sort of postmortem on this. I'm going to work out cause of death. I'm going to work out how, how long this bone was broken before the thing that killed him actually happened. He doesn't have any of the skills to know any of that.

John Dehlin 1:07:44 Oh, he knows how his skin color transforms.

Nemo 1:07:47 Yeah. From, from the boat.

Gerardo Sumano 1:07:49 We really need the skeletons to know that this is.

Nemo 1:07:52 I mean, we don't, but it would be great. It would be like having the Kinderhook plates. Right. It just makes it easier to prove that it's nonsense.

Gerardo Sumano 1:08:00 How many, how many things do we actually need? You know, we have, we have the papyri, we have the Kinderhook place. How many things? We have to prove that all of this is like made up stuff.

John Dehlin 1:08:12 Yeah. And again, this is also. We would. Let's just not forget that this is Joseph Smith. Again, it's like Joseph couldn't make a prophecy, Joseph Smith couldn't make scripture without inserting some sort of narrative about dark skin and curses. The curse of Cain, Book of Moses, Book of Abraham, Doctrine and covenants. And here a random sort of revelation about this skeleton that he stumbles upon. He's got some sort of dark skin curse because he literally has never met a revelation that he didn't want to insert some sort of dark skin curse into. Am I wrong?

Julia 1:08:53 No, I don't think you are wrong.

Nemo 1:08:54 It shows his racial worldview, right. They discover disturbed. They disturbed a shallow grave of someone killed by an arrowhead, supposedly. I mean, if they did find an arrow between his ribs, like that's, you know, that's pretty savage stuff going down. But it's probably quite recent. It's definitely not ancient if they're stumbling across skeletons.

Julia 1:09:15 Right, right. I will point out too. So did you want to say.

Gerardo Sumano 1:09:20 Yeah, I was just gonna say this has all the elements, right? This is here Joseph Smith talking about Lamanite skin changing from dark to white

Nemo 1:09:31 with the curse being removed also from

Julia 1:09:33 Kimora to all the way to the Rocky Mountains.

Gerardo Sumano 1:09:36 Right. And he talks, he talks about this has all the elements. I mean, and this is, I mean, there's no way this was him trying to understand stuff and trying to understand some verses in the Book of Mormon that maybe he misunderstood, missing. You know, he didn't really understand what God was meaning. This is him literally spouting revelation that he was receiving from God. So, yeah, I wonder how Jasmine explains this one. Maybe he doesn't know about him.

Julia 1:10:04 I'll also point out that there, that the. In the 1830s and 1830 and 31, the missionaries were also going to the Onondaga Indians, as we noted before. And so I just think that's really interesting where he's taking Onondagas and making that a great profit. And so I just wonder if he's trying to maybe make that connection in

Nemo 1:10:21 his head, which again, you know, he's trying to connect these to the people who he truly believes or is, you know, telling people are the descendants of these individuals from the, the history as recorded in the Book of Mormon. So again, like you say it just like Gerardo said, it just shows that this is what he believed. The curse is what had effect on the skin color that could change.

John Dehlin 1:10:41 Their animal skins were removed. He's not saying their tattoos were removed. He's not saying the paint was washed off. He's Joseph Smith.

Julia 1:10:49 The curse was taken.

John Dehlin 1:10:50 The curse was taken. He Went from dark to white skinned.

Julia 1:10:54 Yeah, yeah, right, Yep.

John Dehlin 1:10:56 Yeah, yeah. That's pretty condemning right there.

Julia 1:11:00 Right?

John Dehlin 1:11:00 Yeah. Jasmine, let, let me put myself on full. Jasmine Rapalai, Neil Rapalai. Can you please do us all a favor, use your integrity and come up with a, with a tick tock video or YouTube video that explains how to reconcile your interpretations of what skin of blackness means in the Book of Mormon with, with Joseph Smith's story of Zelf and the white Lamanite. I want to see that video. Please, please Rapalize. Bless us with your knowledge and your wisdom.

Nemo 1:11:32 I have heard if we're wrong, we want to know it.

Julia 1:11:35 I have heard people say that they don't take Zealth the white laminate very seriously. Although it is published in the History of the Church. As he pointed out, during the same time there is a letter that he writes to Emma in which he says that they rove over the mounds of the once beloved people of the, the Lamanites and they pick up their bones and things like that. And so to me this is like, this is just like a support of that letter that we have from that he gave to Emma.

Nemo 1:11:56 It's wonderfully convenient to just not have to take the prophet seriously about some things. Just like ah, I just don't take it seriously when the founder of the religion makes a declaration about a matter of church doctrine or you know, a matter of church history. I don't have to take that seriously.

Julia 1:12:12 Right.

Nemo 1:12:13 When you get selective, it's, it's a wonderful convenience that apologists get to use.

Julia 1:12:18 Yeah, very true. So in this next slide I'm going to set up a little bit where the early saints, as I mentioned, they thought that there would be more Native Americans joining the church but that the whole, all these missions were, were very fruitless in that way. Although the, the best thing that came out of it is that Sidney Rigdon was converted and he brought his whole congregation over. So that really put Mormonism on the map. That gave them numbers because, because there was like now like several hundred people that had joined the church. But so it's. So the, the native there, the, the Mormons are trying to reconcile like not having, not having converts from the Native Americans. And so that's, this is what brings in this, these like code names that the, that they use in the Doctrine and Covenants. And so from this story or from this book with Matthew Garrett, the historian, he points to, or let me just read the slide. So he says, he explains that as Native Americans failed to fulfill anticipated leadership roles or even general membership. Mormon leaders sought to replace Indians through the use of code names that reflected their own imagined Israelites identity. Code names were used from 1832 to 1835. Code names that were used served to protect leaders from financial liability during during Kirtland co op and banking experiments. But the very same code name surfaced throughout Smith's non financial related revelations.

Code Names, Doctrine and Covenants, and Native Americans

Nemo 1:13:40 This is an interesting story here about code names. So within the Doctrine and Covenants essentially because not enough Native Americans were joined the church and taken up leadership leadership positions as was desired by them that what they did was they used code names or fake names that they sort of thought sounded Native American ish. In a section of the Doctrine of Covenants which I think you've got on a slide that we can look at. But those were actually just code names for Smith and other church leaders. So they were trying to take the actions of Smith and other church leaders put code names on it. So it made it seem like they've got all these Native American converts that are doing things like okay wait, put

John Dehlin 1:14:15 that slide back up. So let's just. I need someone to explain this to me. So there's Mormon church leaders like Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, they could have used those names or Native Americans have actual names. Why are they using code weird code names in the Doctrine and Covenants?

Julia 1:14:32 Yeah, I think this one I think deserves its own episode if we want to do that as an LDS discussions episode. But yeah, he was trying to mask because he's giving them the land, he's giving them positions of stewardship and so he's trying I think trying to cover

John Dehlin 1:14:45 up white associates of Joseph Smith. Correct?

Julia 1:14:48 Yes, yes. So like him, Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery, like every all the main leaders, W.W. phelps, they all have these fake names.

Nemo 1:14:56 They are Zombre Mahemson. Yeah,

John Dehlin 1:15:01 their real name.

Julia 1:15:03 They what?

John Dehlin 1:15:04 Why doesn't he want to use their real names?

Gerardo Sumano 1:15:07 Matthew Garrett says that it was because to avoid financial liability during the Kirtland co op and banking experiments. I think he also trying to protect leaders from that liability name surface through Smith's non finance related release.

John Dehlin 1:15:25 This is an original version of the Doctrine of Covenants that then has been scrubbed. Is that correct?

Julia 1:15:30 Yes. Yeah. For a while there the church was publishing the Doctrine Covenants with the code names associated with. But in the, in the modern editions they just take the code names out and then just put in the name

John Dehlin 1:15:39 Revelations work that way. God and Jesus give revelations that then they just take back.

Julia 1:15:44 Right. So I think there's a couple of things that Matthew Garrett is talking about where they're trying to make it look like Native Americans are having these positions in land and that they're just part of the scripture because that's the main part of the Book of Mormon. But then, as Gerardo points out, these codenames were used to cover themselves financially, especially during the Kirtland bank, the anti banking society. So I just thought this was really.

John Dehlin 1:16:04 Reminds me of the Mountain Meadows Massacre where they're trying to blame the murders on the Native Americans. It's like if you. If you got some pickle you want to get out of, let's stick it to the Native Americans somehow.

Gerardo Sumano 1:16:16 Is that really how they thought?

Nemo 1:16:18 Yeah, but not use like real. As far as I've understood what that says. Not use real Native American names. Even just names that come from Joseph Smith's imagined history of the Native Americans or.

Julia 1:16:30 Some of them sound like more Hebrew. Yes. But, yeah, a lot of them. And Zelf, I don't know where he's getting if that's more of a Hebrew kind of sound name.

Nemo 1:16:38 I mean, we can all thank him for that because that is an iconic YouTube channel.

John Dehlin 1:16:40 We got it from Dr. Seuss. Is that an anachronism? Is Dr. Seuss an anachronism?

Nemo 1:16:47 I think he's a bit late. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano 1:16:48 Isn't it interesting that this. Those names sound a lot like Book of Mormon names?

Nemo 1:16:53 Yeah, that's my point. Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:16:56 Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano 1:16:56 Olayha.

Nemo 1:16:58 Yeah. Zombre sounds almost Spanish, but apart from that. Yeah. And Lane, the Shine House. Yeah, it's like, what, three words? But again, that's anachronistic as well, right?

Julia 1:17:17 Oh, yeah.

Nemo 1:17:18 Do you guys have what three words?

John Dehlin 1:17:19 Read this. Can I read this?

Julia 1:17:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 1:17:22 All right, so this is literally God's holy scripture. Jesus himself revealing to Joseph Smith a section of the Doctrine and covenants in 1835. I assume God and Jesus were in charge in 1835, right? Is that. I mean, Right. So this is Jesus speaking to Joseph Smith at 18:35 as revealed as holy scripture to God's holy prophet on the earth. And here's what God and Jesus have to say in 1835. And again, let my servant Mahemsum have appointed unto him for his stewardship the lot of the land which my servant Zombre obtained in exchange for his former inheritance for him and his seed after him. And in so much as he is faithful, I will multiply blessings upon him in his seed after him. And let my servant Mahemsum devote his monies for the proclaiming of my words, according as my servant Gazelam shall direct. And again, this is Joseph Smith telling people how to spend their money. It always happens to be in ways that will benefit Joseph Smith, I'm sure.

Nemo 1:18:30 But.

John Dehlin 1:18:31 But it. But it's actually God and Jesus telling people, just like Emma needs to have. Let Joseph Smith have polygamous wives. These men need to spend their money coincidentally in ways that would benefit Joseph Smith. According to God and Jesus. Verse 5. And again, let my servant Sheder Lomach have the place upon which he now dwells.

Julia 1:18:52 That's Frederick G. Williams.

John Dehlin 1:18:54 And let my servant Oliha, that's Oliver Cowdery, have the lot which is set off joining the house, which is to be for the Lane Shine house. Who's that, Julia?

Julia 1:19:11 Oh, it's the lot number.

John Dehlin 1:19:13 The printing office, which is a lot number one, which is lot number one. And also the lot upon which his father resides. And let my servant Sheeter Leomach, Patrick G. Williams and Oliha Oliver have the Lane Shine house, printing office, and all things that pertain this one verse. These two verses prove Mormonism isn't true. This is the dumbest verses in the history of Mormon scripture. And that's saying a lot. That's saying a lot, by the way. But this is so dumb. We're told that God reveals scripture because it's crucial to our modern day. And so God didn't take the time to tell us about germ theory or penicillin or the civil war that was coming up, or systemic sexism or racism. He wants to spend two entire verses with this super stupid, racist, fictional Native American scam for a real estate scheme. Is that. Is that what we're supposed to believe here?

Julia 1:20:21 Yes, but it's not just four verses. He does this throughout the all of DNC, the 1835 edition. So it's several sections that have these code names in them.

Nemo 1:20:29 So that's to trick the members, right? That's the trick. Reading this. Think that there are these, like, Native Americans they've just never met who have got all these special leadership positions, all

Gerardo Sumano 1:20:39 the layman I rejoining the church, fulfilling the prophecies of the Book of Mormon for their inheritance.

John Dehlin 1:20:47 Mike, we need.

Nemo 1:20:48 Mike, they are. They are the. The Joseph Smith equivalent of the shell companies they had their money in. Right? Those names only exist on paper.

John Dehlin 1:20:57 Also Neil Rapalai and Jasmine Rapalai. I want you to create some TikTok videos explaining these two.

Nemo 1:21:04 These two verses, please. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin 1:21:06 We want to know what. You know what, what presentist perspective we're bringing to them. And. And why they're super. You know what scholars. What scholars at BYU who are paid by the church. What sense they would make of these two verses. Because they're awesome.

Julia 1:21:24 Yeah. And again, it's not just the two. It's throughout all of Doctrine Covenants. Okay, so there's another one that I wanted to point to of a hymn that was written. This is Emma's, one of the first hymn books that was written. And this is in 1835. Does somebody want to read this hymn?

Nemo 1:21:39 Yes, please.

John Dehlin 1:21:39 Go for it, Nemo.

Guest 4 1:21:40 Okay.

Nemo 1:21:41 Oh, stop and tell me, red man who are ye, why you roam and how you get your living? Have you no God, no home? With stature straight and portly and decked in native pride with feathers, paints and brooches? He willingly replied.

John Dehlin 1:21:59 Let me just Stop. This is a. This is in the original LDS Church hymn book. Yes, this him. Oh, stop and tell me, red man. We just have to really drive that point. This is one of the most super racist hymns.

Nemo 1:22:12 If you'd given me the tune, I would have sang it.

John Dehlin 1:22:15 All right, keep going.

Nemo 1:22:17 I once was pleasant, Ephraim, when Jacob formerly prayed. But oh, how blessings vanish when man from God has strayed. Before your nation knew us some thousand moons ago, Our fathers fell in darkness and wandered to and fro. And long they lived by hunting instead of work and arts. And so our race has dwindled to idle Indian hearts. Yet hope within us lingers as if the Spirit spoke. He'll come for your redemption and break your gentile yoke. And all your captive brothers from every climb shall come and quit their savage customs to live with God at home. Then joy will fill our bosoms and blessings crown our days to live in pure religion and sing our Maker's praise.

John Dehlin 1:23:09 So, wow. Obviously super racist. That's just classic mound builder myth. You know, Americans who came to the New World wanted to displace and kill the native Americans needing some awful story to justify their barbarism. You know, that that's all that. That. That is. Right, Julia.

Julia 1:23:36 Yeah, I just. I also want to point out that. That the. The same language is reflected in the Book of Mormon. That they were. That they were idle, that they were savage, that they were. That they moved to and fro like, that they didn't have a settlement. They didn't have. Like. All this is like, showing the Book of Mormon is very racist. Like, don't take like, even, like, look at the descriptions of the people who have this curse of skin of blackness and how they describe Them. And that is incredibly racist.

John Dehlin 1:24:01 Now, the one thing I'm not. Go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo 1:24:03 I was gonna say we'll get to it. We'll get to it slightly later. But in the Book of Mormon reader, which we'll talk about, it says the Lamanites became lazy and would not work. And it just has a picture of very clearly Native American looking people, looking idle and scratching armpits.

Julia 1:24:19 Right.

Nemo 1:24:20 You can see it just there.

Julia 1:24:21 Yeah. And they're constantly stealing flocks from the. The Nephites because they didn't. They didn't have the desire to do it themselves, to tend these flocks themselves. Just. It's just throughout the whole Book of Mormon is this.

John Dehlin 1:24:32 Native Americans are lazy. Dark theme, loathsome, you know, disgusting, Gross. Now, the one thing, Julia, I'm not seeing in. In this hymn. Oh, stop and tell me, Red man. Is anything about dark skin being a curse?

Julia 1:24:50 Well, so the curse. So. And that's a good point. So the curse was also. In the early days of the church, the. The curse of red skin was also interchangeable with the curse of black skin. And it wasn't quite as used as much. But even Fawn Brody points to that as well, that this curse of red skin. And so. But as, again, I'll. I'll say this again. The Joseph Smith and all the early saints, every Native American that they saw, they were Lamanites. They. With red skin, black skin, whatever. They. They were all Lamanites. And so, yes, you're right that this one doesn't point specifically to Lamanites, but that's what they're talking about.

John Dehlin 1:25:20 Yeah. Red man, right?

Nemo 1:25:22 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:25:23 Yeah, yeah. And I guess it's a good thing the church pulled that out of the hymn. Right?

Nemo 1:25:29 Can we just look at what that hymn is called? Sacred hymns. This is considered sacred. This behave, this language, this way of talking about Native Americans is considered sacred.

Julia 1:25:40 That was their most sacred text, the Book of Mormon. It has the same things.

Nemo 1:25:44 But I guess I'm just getting that, you know, you can't say, oh, well, that's just. To him, these are sacred hymns.

Julia 1:25:49 Oh, yeah.

Nemo 1:25:50 These are important.

John Dehlin 1:25:51 We need to know. Okay. Okay. I just googled when was this hymn removed from the LDS Church's hymn book? And my first query says that it was there until 1919. So this hymn made it as a. Basically for 90 years. 85. 90 years. This was sung as a sacred hymn of the Mormon Church. This hymn. Oh, stop and tell me Redmond, could

Nemo 1:26:24 have been sung in General conference. It's like, eligible to be sung in

John Dehlin 1:26:27 general conference, conference and in sacrament meetings worldwide for.

Julia 1:26:31 Well, that's why they have these hymns, is so that they can sing them in. In the. In their sacred. When they do their. The sacrament, things like that.

Nemo 1:26:37 Singing hymns is an act of worship, you know.

Julia 1:26:39 Right.

Nemo 1:26:40 It's important.

John Dehlin 1:26:41 Crazy.

Julia 1:26:42 Yeah. So this next. So this next slide is about Chief Keokuk. And I was just in Nauvoo and I learned a little bit more about Chief Kia Cook. But maybe we'll read it first before I say what I learned. And so I'll read this one. So this is in 1841. So despite the lack of interest among the Native Americans, Joseph Smith still maintained the vision that the Lamanites would predominate. This is according to the historian Matthew Garrett In 1841, the Indian chief Keokuk. And Keokuk is also a town next to or across the river from Nauvoo. They named it after Keokuk. The Indian chief Keokuk, with about 50 of his followers, met with Joseph Smith in front of the Nauvoo Temple and smoked the pipes and smoked the pipe of peace together. Joseph made a speech there in front of the natives and the multitude that had gathered, as published in the Warsaw signal in 1841. The Prophet made a speech to the warrior in the presence of the assembled multitude, in which he depicted in glowing colors an enthusiastic strain, the wonders of the great temple, the mysteries of the Book of Mormon, and the glorious times that they will have together in these latter days and the latter day city which they were going to inherit. And so again, he's talking about how the. He still has this mindset of them inheriting the land and then being leaders in the church and things like that. So I also found out visiting. I visited the Natural, or, excuse me, the Nauvoo Historical Society. And she point the leader, the woman, over the Historical Society, she pointed out that Chief Keokuk had blue eyes. And so I wonder if one of the reasons that I just. This is just speculation. I wonder if Joseph Smith saw Chief Keokuk as having the. The curse partly removed. And this is just speculation just because of how he looked, how he was like he wasn't as dark and he had blue eyes, because that's reflective in the later history where we'll see Spencer Kimball, where he'll stand up and say that the Native children are changing colors, they're becoming whiter, and therefore they're more righteous or more accepting of the gospel and things like that. So I just thought that was interesting, this image of I haven't. Hadn't really pictured this before. Joseph Smith standing in front of the Nauvoo Temple with his chief and they're smoking this pipe together and he's teaching him about the book Mormon. Of course, the Keokuk was not receptive. They were kinder to them than some of the other Native Americans. They let them trade and sell their land or take some of their land. But anyway, I just thought that was an interesting image that, that of this whole thing.

Native American Legacy and the Church's Broken Promises

John Dehlin 1:28:59 Yeah. And if you Fast forward to 2024, Native Americans are inheriting nothing, you know, except for maybe casino rights in the United States. Like, like none of that prophecy is coming true as far as I know. Am I wrong?

Julia 1:29:14 No, I think you're very right that I couldn't.

Nemo 1:29:16 I don't know what this whole casino thing is, but yeah, assume you're correct.

John Dehlin 1:29:21 Okay, so Gerardo's power just went out and he dropped off. But we're kind of. Are we at the end of this, this part one of the series?

Julia 1:29:29 Yes. We've at least covered. We've at least covered the slides that I had up until Joseph Smith death. And then after that is when Brigham Young takes over.

John Dehlin 1:29:34 And, and so tell me, tell me if I'm. Tell me what I'm leaving out. So Julia, what I've learned so far from part one of today's episode is that there was no confusion with Joseph Smith, WWE Phelps, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, etc as to number one, who the Lamanites were. They were any dark skinned Native American from North America to Central America, all the way down to South America, that they were all Lamanites, that they were all cursed with dark skin because of the wickedness. That if the white Mormon missionaries wanted to take a few squaws on the side as polygamous wives, they were allowed

Julia 1:30:16 but that to help them turn white.

John Dehlin 1:30:19 And that. Right. And that by mixing with the righteous adopted seed of Israel, meaning Mormon white European converts from Western Europe, that that's the only way that the, this curse would be lifted so that their skins could turn whiteness like the pure driven snow. And that that was the understanding in that. And that it was literal dark skin. It wasn't painting, it wasn't tattoos and it wasn't animal hair, at least up until the death of Joseph Smith. And that whenever they wanted to use Native Americans in the scriptures to, to hide some sort of shady real estate scam, they would then invoke Indian names as a way to deceive the members and try and put as much shady behavior on Indians and Native Americans. Is that, is that what we've learned from today's episode so far?

Julia 1:31:16 I feel like that's accurate. I feel like the, this, I feel like it's safe to say that the, the idea that the Native Americans were Lamanites was held in Mormonism up until probably 2002, probably very recently, until those DNA studies comes out. And we're going to show that in our history or in this, in these presentations, maybe that's a little too early, but at least, but at least later into the 1900s, and I'm pretty sure I, or 1990s, I feel like it's accurate to say until those studies came out in the early 2000s. But I also wanted to say that, and Dan Vogel points this out really well in his book Indian Origins in the Book of Mormon. Where, when Joseph Smith was coming up with the idea of the Book of Mormon and when he was, when, when he was translating the Book of Mormon, one of the questions in his culture was, where did the Native Americans come from? Who are they? People wondered if they were the lost, the lost 10 tribes. People wondered if they came from the Tower of Babel. And they were just trying to figure out the origin of them. And there was a lot of scholarly debates. Everything was being, all these things were being published in Joseph Smith's area, the Palmyra reflector, the newspapers around him. And so Joseph, when he, when he translated the Book of Mormon, translates the Book of Mormon, Oliver Cowdery and some of the other followers were like, finally, we have an answer to these questions that everyone is asking of where do these, where do these Native Americans come from? And then of course, they, Joseph Smith says that they came from Jerusalem and then also from the Tower of Babel because there's two groups that come over into the Americas at different times. And so people just saw the Joseph Smith's book as, as, as answering that question or bridging that gap of understanding. And so I just think that was really interesting to see that Joseph Smith is trying to answer these questions that were being asked.

John Dehlin 1:32:42 Right.

Julia 1:32:43 Yeah.

John Dehlin 1:32:44 What did you want to add to the summary?

Nemo 1:32:46 Oh, no, I, I was just saying that according to the notes I've taken throughout, your summary was pretty accurate. I think that's where we're at at the moment. And I'm, I'm looking forward to now looking at how the church will try and shift its narrative moving forward and, and, and see what shifting sands that this narrative is kind of built upon as things change and develop and then ultimately Comparing that to what apologists then try and tell us prophets actually meant.

Julia 1:33:12 Yeah. And so as a precursor to the next episode, I'll talk about the change a little bit. So Brigham Young, because the natives weren't joining the church, and because they're having so much conflict with Native Americans, he kind of changes his mindset. And the Saints do as well, that they. They don't see them as like noble savages, savages anymore. They see them, which is their words in the culture. They see them as just savages. They see them as just people that you have to correct people, you have to change this group of people that you have to colonize. And that was Brigham Young. And that seemed to be carried forward throughout the 1900s. And then even with the Indian student placement program and all these other things that we're going to talk about is that there is a shift from the Mormon mindset of Native Americans or Lamanites, to what. To after Brigham Young or during Brigham Young.

Nemo 1:33:52 Yeah. Because, like, Joseph Smith was all about, you know, oh, you're going to inherit this. This book was for you. It's actually our job to kind of get you guys on board with this whole movement and help you realize your heritage. And it seems like Brigham Young took much more of an attitude of, right, we're going to beat you into submission and make you accept this right. And if not, it's going to blame you for massacres.

Julia 1:34:12 And one thing that we'll be talking about, and this is. I know this is a sensitive topic, but the. The Mormons were. Were very much a part of the slave trade in Utah. And the Mormons bought and sold women and children, or I shouldn't say sold, but they bought women and children as part of the slave trade. They thought that they were doing good, when in reality it probably it wasn't. They're being involved in human trafficking.

John Dehlin 1:34:35 American women and children. Right?

Julia 1:34:37 Native. Excuse me. Yes, Native American women and children that they're. They're buying them up and. And then getting rid of their culture, making them part of the church. And. Yeah, yeah, that's what we're gonna be talking about next time, too. So just to give a preview for what we're going to be talking about.

John Dehlin 1:34:53 Yeah. And I'll just ask any of you who are in contact with Neil Rapalai or Jasmine Rapalai or any of the people at Book of Mormon Central, make tiktoks about this. Explain. Stop. Oh, stop and tell me, Red Man. Explain Onondagas or whatever in the Doctrine and Covenants. Explain how Joseph Smith clearly viewed Native Americans as Lamanites, as cursed with actual skin that then would turn white when they had sex with polygamous, you know, Mormon white missionaries. Explain that in your tiktoks. Explain that in your YouTube channels. Instead of accusing, sort of like blaming the members for bringing, quote, presentist assumptions, you know, to their interpretation of the Book of Mormon text of the word skin. Yeah, the word skin. How about, how about blaming Joseph Smith and all of the leaders of the day for telling us exactly what these words meant at the time they were writing them and teaching about them? Explain that. Book of Mormon central, you know, Jasmine and Neil Rapalai. I think that would be more honest and would be more integritous than to be making up these from the hip interpretations and justifications that are really not just deceptive and undermine prophetic authority for like 150 years, but also are insulting to all the Native Americans from the beginning of the church to now that have suffered insults and injustices as a result of these teachings.

Nemo 1:36:40 Yeah, gauntlet thrown down. Pick it up, please.

Julia 1:36:47 Yeah.

Nemo 1:36:48 All right, Nothing to add. Okay, see you in the next episode.

John Dehlin 1:36:52 Well, Julia, thank you for organizing this. Thank you for picking up Mike's mantle with LDS discussions. And Nemo, thanks for your wit and wisdom and insight and continuity in. In these episodes.

Nemo 1:37:05 I am the continuous thread.

John Dehlin 1:37:10 That's awesome. And yeah, check out Nemo, the Mormon YouTube channel. Nemo, you continue to do great work.

Gerardo Sumano 1:37:18 Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin 1:37:19 And check out analyzing Mormonism, Julia's TikTok and Instagram channels as well.

Julia 1:37:25 Thank you.

Closing Thoughts and Series Recap

John Dehlin 1:37:27 All right, well, we want to thank you all for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast and remind you that the LDS discussion series is like 50 x 55 episodes in. You can consume them as their own standalone episodes on Spotify, as its own branded podcast, LDS discussions, same with Apple Podcasts. And we also have a YouTube playlist, dedicated LDS discussions with millions, I believe, millions and millions of views at this point. It's been one of the most successful series or. Or projects Mormon Stories has ever done. We want to thank Mike for kicking it off and making it happen. And then of course, we want to thank all the donors to the Open Stories foundation who make all this possible. We pay all the participants here, so we need your ongoing financial support to make it all possible. So if you value this series, if you want to see continue and you're not already a donor to Mormon Stories in the Open Stories foundation, please go to mormonstories.org we've renovated our website. Click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we'll be able to keep doing these episodes. All right, thanks, Julia. Thanks, Gerardo. Who had to go. We excuse him. Thanks, Nemo. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast and LDS discussions. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.